Amanitas & Ketamine??

[ethacetin]

Hi, I was wondering if anyone knew if Amanita Muscaria and NMDA antagonists were contraindicated in any way.

And I had this idea .. I believe this Wikipedia quote sums up the current ideas on the pharmacology of Amanitas pretty well:

"Ibotenic acid and muscimol are structurally related to each other and to two major neurotransmitters of the central nervous system: glutamic acid and GABA respectively. Ibotenic acid and muscimol act like these neurotransmitters, muscimol being a potent GABA-A agonist, while ibotenic acid is an agonist of NMDA glutamate receptors and certain metabotropic glutamate receptors which are involved in the control of neuronal activity. It is these interactions which are thought to cause the psychoactive effects found in intoxication. Muscimol is the agent responsible for the majority of the psychoactivity."

One of the major reasons for boiling/baking/pickling/recycling urine is to decarboxylate the ibotenic acid into muscimol, because NMDA *agonists* are neurotoxic & not fun, and muscimol is thought to be where the magick happens

Also, Amanita trips are said to occur in 3 stages .. first one begins salivating everywhere and gets all nauseous, disoriented and fucked up, maybe just sick and unpleasant and not even tripping .. then the somnolence stage where one becomes drowsy and often falls asleep .. and then one comes to and begins tripping. It almost sounds as if the first stage is primarily caused by the effects of the ibotenic acid, the second stage might be the body breaking down and excreting the ibotenic acid, and the third stage the effects of pure muscimol? Maybe?


Anyway, my theory is that if a lot of the negative effects of Amanitas are caused by NMDA *agonist* activity .. then perhaps one could use an NMDA *antagonist* (such as ketamine perhaps?) to neutralize or eliminate these unpleasant effects?

Does neurochemistry work that way, or would this just cause a bad reaction? The more I've read about the subject, the doesn't seem to be any set trend as far as mixing agonists and antagonists of the same receptor - in some cases they cancel one another out and nothing happens, in other cases one is stronger than they other, or it produces a bad reaction..or sometimes they synergize well and cause a really good reaction....


I mean, I should also point out that this is quite a bizarre combination and should really not be attempted by anyone unless they're fully aware of what they're getting themselves into and have experience with both substances & psychonautical voyaging in general .. I know it's probably going to be batshit insane but that's kind of why I'm curious about it .. what I'm most concerned about is if anyone knows if it's physically safe to mix these two substances (or about mixing NMDA antagonists and GABAergics in general)

 

[Amberthefrog]

I don't know the answer to your question really. However it's probably worth noting that NMDA agonism is by NO means the only cause of nausea and other side effects. It may well be a major cause but I know that both ibotenic acid and muscimol cause side effects. I would hazard a guess that the side effects from both these chemicals don't come purely from NMDA agonism.

Also worth note is that there are many other psychoactive compounds at work in the fungus. Muscarine for example is found in small concentrations, however muscarine itself is pretty nasty stuff and has caused deaths in the past (from other species of fungi with higher concentrations mainly). Mild muscarine poison has mush the same symptoms as amanita side effects. I would hazard a fairly solid guess that muscarine plays at least some part in the side effects, also it's mode of action has naff all to do with NMDA agonism so the theoretical blocking of this will not help.

I don't know if you can block the effects of a partial agonist by an antagonist in the way you want, I imagine it's not that simple. I suspect that, if it did work, you would loose at least some of the desired effects and not all of the negative effects. You would still experience some nausea, in some people ketamine itself causes nausea - the combination of the two could be just as bad, or worse than what you were trying to prevent in the first place.

Also, from experience in both drugs I really don't know if I would want to combine them. I could imagine falling into a very strange spacious trance like state and then to sleep. I know people who have mixed the two actually, but they smoked the amanita, making the experience of it a lot weaker. No negative effects reported, or any glowing positive affects. I've never asked much about it though...

 

[ungelesene_bettlek]

both amanita muscaria and ketamine are extremely powerful psychedelics, and since there are not much experiences with amanita muscaria, I would hesitate to combine the two, even thought it could be interesting.

muscarine is not psychactive, btw, just toxic. also, I have a feeling that the north american amanita muscarias have more of it than the european ones; at least, reports talking about bad side effects are mostly from north america, while I never experienced some with mushrooms picked by myself in middle europe.

the mild side effects I had (slight nausea at comeup) could be cured with smoking some cannabis, which also greatly intensified the trip.

 

[Shambles]

i found amanitas mostly caused a "drunken", euphoric state that I would hesitate to call psychedelic. Far from unpleasant but not what I'd call a trip. Would be in two minds about whether adding ket would be fun or just horribly nauseating but have never tried the combo... which makes this post kinda redundant. Postwhores R Us

 

[ethacetin]

I really don't know if I would want to combine them. I could imagine falling into a very strange spacious trance like state

I am the type of person who very much seeks out and desires for things to get as "strange" as possible....

It's been over 3 years, and I've still only had the balls to even do Amanitas like, twice, since then. And didn't mix them with anything else.

Amanitas are .. how you'd say .. one of my "particular" allies. I love them and have always had a rewarding, interesting time, but it certainly is just *weird*. I consider it much like DMT, I love it an respect it infinitely, but a full-on disorienting ego-death isn't something I just want to plop into on a random Tuesday morning. Well, not *every* Tuesday morning anyway... :D

 

[cryptix420]

If you do try it, please come back and share your experience with us. I just finished reading mushrooms and mankind and have been very curious about amanitas. Ketamine used to be a staple in my diet so naturally your idea intrigues me. Did you drink your urine the last two times you did it?

In that book the author takes 5 different drugs in order to try and recreate the 'soma'. I believe it was amanitas, opium, cannabis, psilocybin mushrooms, and coca leaves. If he survived, perhaps you will too. Best of luck to you if you do it.

 

[ethacetin]

Did you drink your urine the last two times you did it?

Oh, I would never waste an active drug .. especially one that has been purified by my liver
I will definitely write a trip report should I ever come across the right set/setting to combine the two.

Getting off topic, but, last time I read about 'soma' the author was saying they analyzed ancient pottery said to contain the brew and found traces of opium, cannabis and ephedra. My modern-day version of that would be speedballing and eating ganja treats. Either way, sounds brilliant!