Taking Piracetam with Choline - Is it safe ?

[jamesmartin]

I recently bought piracetam and i have been taking it for a few days. I have experienced quicker thinking and increased cognitive abilities. However i feel a little more irritable and i also sometimes have mild headaches from the piracetam for some unknown reason.

Alot of people would be quick to recommend choline to stop these side effects. However i was skeptic of this...

I looked into these side effects and ive been reading forums across the web . i stumbled on this interesting post which claimed the following...
"piracetam inherently upregulates acetylcholine receptors from a mechanism other than acetylcholine depletion, supplementing with choline once this point is reached might overflow the brain with acetylcholine and reduce 5ht and DA substantially enough to cause some of the depressive symptoms or otherwise negative effects."

^ is what he says true or even somewhat true or is it pure b.s - You can view the entire thread here http://www.longecity.org/forum/topic/37972-piracetam-without-any-choline-source/

Also what are you advanced drug discussers recommending for my situation? Is it safe to take choline with piracetam ? or is it not ? Please explain your answer if possible

Thanks . Appreciate it.

to the mods - i felt that this was the right place to put my question as to answer it one would require advanced drug knowledge.

 

[KingBlueTwista]

"piracetam inherently upregulates acetylcholine receptors from a mechanism other than acetylcholine depletion" - this means that acetylcholine depletion isn't the mechanism that causes acetylcholine upregulation, not that acetlycholine upregulation doesn't cause acetlycholine depletion, which it does initially. But as acetylcholine is recycled in the nervous system it is only required that choline be supplemented at the beginning of a Piracetam regimen. I remember reading somewhere that piracetam increases AcH receptor density by ~40%, so the amount of choline that you have in your system prior to this alteration will probably not be enough, hence the headaches, which are symptomatic of choline depletion.

Ultimately only you can to judge how much choline you require, but I definitely recommend supplementing it at first, and if you start getting depressive symptoms that may be a sign to slow down/cut back your usage.

 

[sekio]

Rule of thumb: take everything you read on longecity with a grain of salt.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7301036\

In an attempt to gain some insight into possible approaches to reducing age-related memory disturbances, aged Fischer 344 rats were administered either vehicle, choline, piracetam or a combination of choline or piracetam. [...] Those subjects given only choline (100 mg/kg) did not differ on the behavioral task from control animals administered vehicle. Rats given piracetam (100 mg/kg) performed slightly better than control rats (p less than 0.05), but rats given the piracetam/choline combination (100 mg/kg of each) exhibited retention scores several times better than those given piracetam alone. In a second study, it was shown that twice the dose of piracetam (200 mg/kg) or choline (200 mg/kg) alone, still did not enhance retention nearly as well as when piracetam and choline (100 mg/kg of each) were administered together. Further, repeated administration (1 week) of the piracetam/choline combination was superior to acute injections. Regional determinations of choline and acetylcholine revealed interesting differences between treatments and brain area. Although choline administration raised choline content about 50% in striatum and cortex, changes in acetylcholine levels were much more subtle (only 6-10%). No significant changes following choline administration were observed in the hippocampus. However, piracetam alone markedly increased choline content in hippocampus (88%) and tended to decrease acetylcholine levels (19%). No measurable changes in striatum or cortex were observed following piracetam administration. The combination of choline and piracetam did not potentiate the effects seen with either drug alone, and in certain cases the effects were much less pronounced under the drug combination. [...] The results of these studies demonstrate that the effects of combining choline and piracetam are quite different than those obtained with either drug alone

TL;DR.
1. Piracetam plus choline is more effective than either alone.
2. Taking piracetam/choline every day for several weeks will give better effects than taking it only once or twice.
3. Choline increases levels of choline and acetylcholine in the brain. Piracetam increases levels of choline, and decreases levels of acetylcholine (by a small amount). Combining the two results in a milder effect on neurotransmitters than either drug alone. (closer to increasing choline and keeping ACh the same)

basically, piracetam and chpoline is likely to be beneficial, not harmful.

 

[AlphaMethylPhenyl]

this is off topic but would taking piracetam without choline be detrimental?

 

[specialspack]

Rule of thumb: take everything you read on longecity with a grain of salt.


basically, piracetam and chpoline is likely to be beneficial, not harmful.

Yes, it seems a bit daft to suggest that taking choline supplements will "overflow the brain with acetylcholine" - unless there is any reference for that, I would have thought the body's finely honed homeostatic regulation will stop that?

Although (again off topic) is it possible to cause serotonin syndrome by taking to much 5htp? I would say intuitively not for the same reason.

 

[sekio]

this is off topic but would taking piracetam without choline be detrimental?

maybe to your wallet, that's dependent more on your personal chemistry. I beieve the consensus is the worst that can happen is things like headaches and agitation, minor complaints in general.

is it possible to cause serotonin syndrome by taking to much 5htp

Not at normal human consumption levels, and w/o a MAOI. (Basically, not unless you're trying really hard)
Choline is actually used as a nootropic/supplement on its own, as well as dimethylaminoethanol (its precursor), and is a nutrient normally derived from phospholipids like lecithin.

 

[✰hyperobjects✰]

I recently bought piracetam and i have been taking it for a few days. I have experienced quicker thinking and increased cognitive abilities. However i feel a little more irritable and i also sometimes have mild headaches from the piracetam for some unknown reason.

I always pregame my ampakines with choline but try to obtain choline nutritionally from food instead of suplementing it. Ampakines too have the tendency for irritability too. I get fucking angry with people when I'm on noopept and people aren't operating at the same speed as me and I have to slow down and restate myself.

 

[bluedolphin]

I never really noticed a difference between taking Piracetam, which I had taken for 8+ years off and on in varying doses including massive doses daily at times... and taking Piracetam plus Choline.

Therefore it never seemed harmful to me. I just started taking the Choline after reading about everyone say how much better it was. If it was more effective at all, the difference was within the margin of error of my Piracetam measurements to begin with.

 

[ballgoggles]

I have found a significant increase in effects when supplementing both together. I have found that I don't notice piracetam by itself nearly as much as i do Alpha GPC. The two in tandem, with a cup of coffee and an egg sandwich to start the day is what the entire world should take in my opinion. We'd be in a much better place.

I do have a friend who has had success with piracetam but had adverse affects with Alpha GPC.

I have at times noticed depressive symptoms, or agitated states, which I would attribute to an imbalance in neurotransmitters. I have found that supplementing L-tyrosine and 5-htp has helped in those instances.

Like all of life it's all about finding the perfect balance. At the end of the day all of us have different makeups so no formula will hold ultimate success for all. I do feel that most people taking piracetam and choline in combination should also be taking other things to level out the levels of neurotransmitters in your brain.

Everyday we will find ourselves in different situations which our bodies will respond to which will alter our levels. Having the ability to counter that is always nice.

 

[DJHENRU]

costly and desolved into water, it tastes EXTREMELY like barf. Love the 1:1 ratio, I suppose there could be detrimental effects like affecting sleep and narrowing focus but im unsure.

 

[Elinisti]

I'm one of those who start to feel shitty from various choline supplements. I guess I've got more than enough acetylcholine flowing in my brain. Piracetam works great the way it is. No need to confuse the mind and make life a drag. How do other people feel like when they overdose on choline?

Does choline itself do something in the brain or does it simply get converted into acetylcholine?

 

[MrFister]

I'm one of those who start to feel shitty from various choline supplements. I guess I've got more than enough acetylcholine flowing in my brain. Piracetam works great the way it is. No need to confuse the mind and make life a drag. How do other people feel like when they overdose on choline?

Does choline itself do something in the brain or does it simply get converted into acetylcholine?

If I remember right excessive choline supplementation may produce a sort of melancholic depression, more dysthymia than anything. I've only found a single supportive article however, so I'm unsure to how worrisome you should be about it. Here's the article http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2687891/