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Is this the 'tobacco moment' for cannabis?

Inso

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http://www.independent.co.uk/life-s...-the-tobacco-moment-for-cannabis-8349054.html

Henry Cockburn was diagnosed with schizophrenia in 2002 at the age of 20. Before that he was a heavy cannabis user. His father, Patrick Cockburn, The Independent's award-winning foreign correspondent, has long wondered whether the two were linked and spent months speaking to the world's leading experts in the field. In a four-part series prompted by his son's condition, he will examine the medical evidence linking sustained cannabis use with schizophrenia, before going on to look at the way the mentally ill have been let down by the health service and stigmatised by public opinion, and concluding on Thursday with his manifesto for a more humane and effective system – accompanied each day by Henry's account of his journey from pyschosis to a normal life.

For cannabis it is the "tobacco moment". The long-suspected link between consuming cannabis and developing schizophrenia has been repeatedly confirmed by recent studies. Observers say that for cannabis the present moment is similar to that half a century ago when scientific proof of a connection between smoking tobacco and cancer became so strong that no serious doctor or scientist could deny it.

Popular perception of the risks involved for the 2.3 million people taking cannabis in Britain over the last year has lagged behind evidence of its toxicity as shown in a mounting number of scientific studies. One recent expert survey of the evidence published by different scientists in different countries says that research "has consistently found that cannabis use is associated with schizophrenia outcomes later in life".

Sir Robin Murray, Professor of psychiatric research at the Institute of Psychiatry in London, says that studies show that "if the risk of schizophrenia for the general population is about one per cent, the evidence is that, if you take ordinary cannabis, it is two per cent; if you smoke regularly you might push it up to four per cent; and if you smoke 'skunk' every day you push it up to eight per cent".

The great majority of those taking cannabis suffer no ill-effects and may regard warnings about the drug's dangers as exaggerated and alarmist. This includes those taking "skunk", which today contains at least three times more THC, the major psychoactive ingredient in the cannabis plant, than it did in the 1960s. A survey of cannabis confiscated by the police in 2008 showed that ordinary cannabis had about 4-5 per cent THC and "skunk" about 16 per cent. Less potent varieties are becoming more difficult to buy on the street while ever more concentrated ones are available on the internet.

For cannabis smokers diagnosed years later with schizophrenia the outcome is a lifetime battling with psychosis, including symptoms such as paranoid delusions, hostile voices and unexplained waves of terror and guilt. Many sufferers end up isolated, jobless, impoverished and with their lives ruined.

Pro- and anti-cannabis campaigners have furiously disputed the dangers of taking cannabis. Proponents of decriminalisation claim it is no more risky to health than junk food. But doctors and nurses treating the mentally ill in Britain have long noticed that a very high proportion of their patients are serious users of the drug, often starting to take it at a young age. Dr Humphrey Needham-Bennett, medical director and consultant psychiatrist of Cygnet Hospital, Godden Green in London, says that among his patients "cannabis use is so common that I assume that people use or used it. It's quite surprising when people say 'no, I don't use drugs'."

A psychiatrist leading an Early Intervention in Psychosis team in a large inner city area, who did not want to be identified, likewise says "it was not fashionable to say so in the 1990s, but any practising mental health professional would agree that if you smoked a lot of cannabis, particularly in your teenage years, there is a risk of psychosis. Studies coming out over the last five years have confirmed this."

Until very recently conventional wisdom was that while cannabis might have a toxic effect on the life of a minority of users, most people who took it would be unaffected. Consumption was a form of Russian roulette in which a live round was only occasionally fired, though when this did happen the effect could be ruinous.

It is this comforting belief that only a minority of cannabis users is at risk which is now in doubt according to new research showing that the danger to public health may be much wider than previously supposed. The study, published in August 2012, examines 1,000 people in Dunedin, New Zealand, who are one of the most intensively researched groups in the world from the point of view of their mental health.

All were born in 1972-73 and they took IQ tests and other mental functioning tests at the age of 13 and again at the age of 38. Every few years they were also asked about their use of marijuana. Those who smoked significant amounts as teenagers before the age of 18, while their brains were still developing, showed a significant 8-point drop in their IQ levels (between 90 and 110 is considered average) compared to people who were non-consumers. People starting to smoke cannabis after 18 have some reduction in their IQ, but nothing like as large as the younger group. Experts suggest the results may explain why teenage heavy cannabis users are frequently under-achievers.

Until about 10 years ago, cannabis was often seen as a "harmless" recreational drug, the effects of which should be sharply distinguished from heroin and cocaine. There was little research into cannabis as a cause of schizophrenia or as a factor exacerbating the condition once it was diagnosed, leading to "revolving door" cases that clog up such in-patient facilities that exist.

Zerrin Atakan, formerly head of the National Psychosis Unit at the Maudsley Psychiatric Hospital and now a researcher at the Institute of Psychiatry, recalls: "I got interested in cannabis because I was working in the 1980s in an intensive care unit where my patients would be fine after we got them well. We would give them leave and they would celebrate their new-found freedom with a joint and come back psychotic a few hours later."

Dr Atakan became intensely interested in investigating the link between cannabis and mental illness, though this turned out to be easier said than done. She says: "I was astonished to discover that cannabis, which is the most widely used illicit substance, was hardly researched in the 1990s and there was no research on how it affected the brain." She intended to study how the brain was affected by THC using neuro-imaging. "We did eight grant applications and got nothing," she says. "We carried out studies without grants, which is generally unheard of, because you have to pay for imaging sessions using brain scanners."

Prior to about 2002, scientific evidence that cannabis could be risky for some was often discounted or ignored. One such piece of research was a study of some 50,000 Swedish army conscripts who joined the army in 1969-70. They were interviewed then and later about their drug consumption. The evidence from this very large sample was that heavy consumers of cannabis at the age of 18 were six times more likely than non-consumers to be diagnosed with schizophrenia over the next 15 years.

Epidemiological studies like this are now being confirmed by new studies of the brain through neuro-imaging. Dr Paul Morrison, a psychiatrist specialising in cannabis research, says: "Pretty well all the studies have been consistent in linking the use of cannabis and having a chronic [mental] disorder."

But the connection is not straightforward. Susceptibility to schizophrenia depends on genetic inheritance, but this in turn is highly complex since 62 genes so far have been identified as contributing to vulnerability to psychosis. Social and personal stress play a role, with immigrants and people from areas which are socially fragmented more likely to suffer from schizophrenia. Professor Murray says that there are few reliable figures on this, but "the incidence of schizophrenia in south London since 1964 has doubled".

Cannabis consumption has been falling in Britain as well as the rest of northern Europe since 2004, but the age when teenagers start taking the drug is also going down. There has been a nearly 20-fold increase in first-time use by under-18s, with 40 per cent of under 15-year-olds in the UK having used the drug. This is a dangerous trend. Dr Morrison says "adolescence seems to be the critical variable when the neuro-circuits are being sculpted and the personality is emerging". In fact, for the children of cannabis smokers the first impact of cannabis starts before birth according to post-mortems on the aborted foetuses of mothers who admit to taking cannabis.

Debate over the risks or lack of them stemming from cannabis has traditionally been rancorous and embittered, often revolving around the separate issue of decriminalisation. There is limited reference to long-term mental illness. The pro-cannabis lobby says that the so-called "war on drugs" has failed and legalisation or regulation should be tried, though critics argue that no government would ever license a drug that sends at least two per cent of its consumers insane.

Knowledge of the risks stemming from cannabis use as revealed by recent studies may be spreading, particularly as consumers become more aware of the greater toxicity of skunk. Professor Murray says that the average doctor may not know much about the dangers of cannabis, but "I think that the average 19-23-year-old knows more because they have a friend who has gone paranoid. People know a lot more about bad trips than they used to."
I still see no evidence that there is a CAUSAL link between cannabis use and scizophrenia. If this were true, the incidence of schizophrenia would have increased tenfold between the 1960s and now given the very large increase in cannabis use in this period.

They keep going on about diagnosed schizophrenics being more ikely to be heavy cannabis users, completely ignoring the fact that mentally ill people are generally far more likely to take drugs on a regular basis very often self medicating.

Thoughts?
 
Two friends of mine who smoked cannabis regularly with, and had no history of psychotic illness or drug use other than cannabis, both had psychotic episodes at my house (not at the same time) so I saw the whole thing unfold. Both were sectioned and hospitalised for an extended period.

One was diagnosed as schizophrenic, the other was able to lead a normal life again after months in hospital (his personality was significantly changed though and he wasn't like the same guy anymore).

There is the argument that cannabis use can speed up the appearance of schizophrenia in people who would have developed the symptoms later on anyway in their early twenties. If this is true then it might mean being robbed of several years of normal life they would have had if they didn't smoke it. That's one of the reasons I wouldn't advocate use of any drug including alcohol in teenagers anyway.

I don't think anyone can honestly say that there is no causal link between cannabis use and isolated psychotic episodes in some people though. I don't think it's fair to point to it as the sole cause when genetics, stress, life circumstances etc can all play a part in how someone might eventually have a psychotic episode, but just because these factors might set you up to potentially have a psychotic episode, it doesn't mean you necessarily will.
Smoking cannabis could be what triggers it though, so I mean causal in the sense that if you avoided cannabis you might not have had a psychotic episode atall, but it could be the straw that breaks the camels back. I think it can be an indirect trigger aswell, if smoking it starts to make someone lose their motivation, become depressed, socially anxious, dysfuntional etc over time, which in turn all adds up to putting them in the situation and circumstances which increases their risk of having a psychotic episode regardless of drug use.

Some people smoke it their whole lives without any problems, a significant number of people do have problems related directly to their cannabis use. If it was a tiny minority of people I think it would be easier to shrug off the increasing amount of evidence linking cannabis with quite serious mental health problems.

Btw, I get a bit annoyed with the way some people are totally insistent that cannabis is completely benign and everything except the cannabis is to blame. I don't believe serious scientific studies and statistics, which indicate or prove links between cannabis and mental health problems or other negative impacts on individuals and society, are a threat to the possible legalisation or decriminalisation of cannabis though - if anything it all helps, because identifying and quantifying the actual risks eliminates doubt and speculation that the fearmongers and anti-legalisation brigade rely on to stop progress towards reforms.
Anyway people would be less likely to have these problems atall if they based their descisions on an honest appraisal of the facts instead of snoop doggs advice to 'smoke weed everyday' :P
 
This probably deserves a more considered post but I havent got time today... I'm too busy jousting with the shadow people & battling my own deep-seated neurosis & psychosis! ;)

Anyway, I know a schizophrenic buddy who started smoking weed regularly only after he was diagnosed & this was many years after a decade in the 70's banging all kindsa drugs down, from LSD & "Black Bombers" to Barbiturates. He HAD smoked occassionally in the 70's but daily use only began in the 80's after the diagnosis. In fact, he began to smoke weed/hash to counter-act some of the affects of his anti-psychotic medication, Chlorpormazine, if I remember correctly. Initially he was fighting constant nausea & lasitude. For some reason, whilst on Chlorpromazine, he found weed energised him & got him out the house when he might have stayed in &, as is well known here at BL, it counter-acted the nausea. Sadly he was also an alcoholic though-out the time period concerned & the booze caused him many physical problems in more recent years. In fact, diabetes had caused him to lose so much weight I was concerned for his health last time I saw him &, as I've since moved home & havent seen him since, I'm still worried :(

Anyway, I have slightly higher risk of psychological issues as both my parents suffered some minor mental health problems. I started smoking weed in my late teens (19) & developed a light but admittedly daily habit within a couple of years. This habit is maintained, & I can say without hesitation that the only mental health issues I've had in the intervenng years have always (& I mean 100% ALWAYS) been related to the use, or over-use of more powerful drugs & medications. The closest I ever came to a full-on psychotic break was after huge, prolonged, medicinal administration of Ketamine. The only time I've suffered prolonged bouts of depression &/or anxiety have been for obvious personal reasons (death in family, end of relationship etc) or after ill-advised use of MDMA or Mephedrone. During these periods I lower my intake of herb just in case it is contributing, just as I would if I had a chest infection & was concerned that smoking weed wasn't helping.

Despite my experiences with God's own Gunjah, I have to caution anyone with a heavy habit or anyone taking up this habit in their early teens that it IS possible that latent psychological issues may arise & that cannabis/marijuana may expedite this process.

Deep down, given the prevelance of psychological illness within our society (something like 50% of us will suffer some kind of serious mental problem at least once in our life-times) & the huge prevelance of cannabis use in young people, I believe that mental health problems associated with smoking dope are simply brought forward by the drug & that at some point, life-stress itself would probably have brought it to the surface anyway.

This is a personal opinion of mine based entirely on my own annecdotal evidence & is not meant to encourage ANY young people to use ANY drugs at ANY time. Wait til you grow up a bit!
 
There is no causal link between cannabis and schizophrenia.

The massive rise in cannabis use from about the late 80's onwards is not matched by a concomitant rise in psychosis.

Consequently, the number of people having psychotic episodes who concurrently are cannabis smokers has obviously risen.
 
This is an obfuscation of the point. The illegality of cannabis has not stopped schizoids or potential schizoids from procuring it. They can't even stop them getting it when they are supposed to be sectioned.

I wish someone would take a long hard look at what exactly it is about cannabis and it's effects that attracts schizophrenics to use it. The schizophrenics I know who do use it don't just use a little bit, they will buy half bars and do buckets until it is all gone and they get that 'look' in their eyes. Perhaps they, like some bipolar people I know, enjoy their mental illness in some respects, and are actually trying to exacerbate the positive effects which in turn exacerbates the negative effects for them and those around them. Or maybe it is some sort of medicine for them? As a currently non-schizophrenic person (and hopefully never), I don't know. What I do know is that it isn't just weed that schizoids love, it's anything they can get their hands on, and they have very little control or inhibitions. I know for 100% sure they have all had sex, and lots of it, so maybe we should ban sex?
 
^

Basically what the OP said, yes.

But I don't really know if it is a self medication issue with weed, or a self indulgence issue. I can imagine with smack that might numb you and make the symptoms of the illness stop, but doesn't weed almost always make them sicker - at least observationally?

I have known previously normal people who have had psychosis from weed and other drugs, but to be honest I have never known someone who I saw as being a normal person before diagnosis go from being what I perceive to be normal to being a schizophrenic, they were always a bit weird.
 
Teach people about their Egos from a young age

Watch them smoke cannabis

No more "schizophrenia" will develop
 
My personal experience is limited too but on the self-medication issue I do know one very strong candidate from a very early (newsgroup) Internet forum who swore blind he self-medicated for his schizophrenia in the most positive way. He was very convincing.

As for your second paragraph, I guess I repeat, I too know 'previously normal people who have had psychosis , allegedly, from weed' but not one of who could not have other reasons attributed heavily too/instead of. As for schizophrenics and other mental illness sufferers...like the man said earlier, the mental hospitals are NOT full of the reefer (and other drugs) madness casualties ever predicted by the WOD warriors.
 
I guess they are very isolated people too, so they might be using it to cope with the boredom and loneliness while they live in what can only be described as self imposed solitary confinement.
 
I guess they are very isolated people too, so they might be using it to cope with the boredom and loneliness while they live in what can only be described as self imposed solitary confinement.

Scared to disagree with you in case you hate on me even more ;) but "self-imposed" .....bit harsh. None of them choose schizophrenia.

And..I think it's a bit more than just coping with boredom and loneliness. I think it gives them a shared experience, affirmation, makes a little sense of being an outsider in a weird world. That's my twitter answer. A real one needs more than 140 characters.
 
Scared to disagree with you in case you hate on me even more ;) but "self-imposed" .....bit harsh. None of them choose schizophrenia.

And..I think it's a bit more than just coping with boredom and loneliness. I think it gives them a shared experience, affirmation, makes a little sense of being an outsider in a weird world. That's my twitter answer. A real one needs more than 140 characters.

Poorly worded I guess, considering it is the illness that makes them recede from society. I guess they could well be users because it gives them a connection too.

Why isn't there just a study where we give 10000 rats copious amounts of weed pumped into their tanks from their adolescence and another 10000 rats no weed, and we see which group of rats has more schizophrenia. It would be very crude, and not carry across to humans perfectly. But it's a pretty good starting place.
 
Maybe the hypnotic effect of higher doses of weed is helpful to schizophrenics and stops their attention being all over the place...

When I had really bad stimulant psychosis, smoking weed certainly made it a lot worse though.
 
One of the symptoms of schizophrenia is drug seeking behaviour. That can be before diagnosis too of course. This doesn't just extend to cannabis, but also to alcohol and tobacco- tobacco smoking amongst those with schizophrenia is around 80% compared to about 20% in the population at large.
I think they're looking in the wrong direction for a link.
Also related, I know 2 people who use high cbd varieties of cannabis to self medicate for psychosis. Neither would use high thc strains as they both have experienced increased psychosis and distress following its use previously.
 
Why isn't there just a study where we give 10000 rats copious amounts of weed pumped into their tanks from their adolescence and another 10000 rats no weed, and we see which group of rats has more schizophrenia. It would be very crude, and not carry across to humans perfectly. But it's a pretty good starting place.

You can't really measure mental illness in rats. It would be interesting to track a population of kids in their early to mid teens who do or don't smoke cannabis into their mid twenties, past the age when schizophrenia usally appears, and see how many from each group are schizophrenic or have other mental problems.
 
Teach people about their Egos from a young age

Watch them smoke cannabis

No more "schizophrenia" will develop

Ah fuck it, let's get controversial. I think it was Decca Aitkenhead, journalist and author, who said she'd never met one working class person who suffered psychosis from cannabis.

So let's stop writing about bogus connections between mental illness and cannabis and stop giving middle-class parents, who, let's face it, are fed nothing but unadulterated bullshit about all drug use, so why should we listen to them this time, the chance to lazily blame the most persistent folk devil (drugs) instead of looking for the real underlying problem instead.

Follow all those commas? Good.
 
There is no causal link between cannabis and schizophrenia.

The massive rise in cannabis use from about the late 80's onwards is not matched by a concomitant rise in psychosis.

Consequently, the number of people having psychotic episodes who concurrently are cannabis smokers has obviously risen.

Well said. I was trying to think of a concise way to say this but you nailed it.

Of course cannabis can be a trigger for certain latent mental health problems, however so can many other things like stress, trauma, life situation, drinking (!), other drugs, etc.

Fact is there is no hard evidence it directly causes schizophrenia. Only that those diagnosed with schizophrenia are more likely to have taken...drugs.
 
Big problem with this is there has been no change in schizophrenia rates over the last 100 years - if anything they have fallen.

Now how the fuck do you square that with the fact that for the last 50 years people have been caning cannabis like it's been going out of fashion. At the very least you would have seen a massive explosion in the number of people with schizophrenia.

It's horseshit - the independent turned against cannabis after their silly fucking "lets legalise it, oh fuck no, lets make it class B again". Silly bastards.
 
Jacqui Smith is on 5Live tonight or tomorrow after 11pm explaining why she is a cunt.

Note the listener friendly time. For druggies I guess.
 
You can't really measure mental illness in rats. It would be interesting to track a population of kids in their early to mid teens who do or don't smoke cannabis into their mid twenties, past the age when schizophrenia usally appears, and see how many from each group are schizophrenic or have other mental problems.

Don't all the longitudinal studies point to a causal link?

Also, rats and mice are deliberately bred to have or show the signs of schizophrenia to then have drugs which are going to be given to schizophrenics aren't they?

For instance this study seems to suggest you can look at things like their memory and their interaction with other rats and stuff:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1764543/

They also sort of beat me to it:

Another example of an environmental risk factor associated with the precipitation of psychotic symptoms, which is quite amenable to investigation using animal models, is chronic cannabis use during adolescence. Recent work on the central nervous system (CNS) effects of cannabinoids in rats indicates these compounds have effects that could potentially contribute to psychosis, including a complex modulation of dopaminergic transmission that can lead to an enhanced sensitization of dopamine neurons and the ability to alter dendritic structure in the prefrontal cortex.21,22 Long-term cannabis exposure to adolescent rats has been shown to impair memory and social interaction, whereas perinatal lesion to the prefrontal cortex in combination with cannabis exposure during the adolescent period exacerbates aspects of these deficits.

To be honest I am not exactly against the idea that in a certain subsection of the population weed isn't just a benign plant that makes you lazy, relaxed and happy, but is something altogether much worse for them. I still don't see how that changes anything with regard to it's legality, which is what the Independent seems to be hinting at? Why on earth add to schizophrenic's problems by making the things they are most attracted to illegal? I mean that is pretty much the reason why our prisons have more mentally ill people in them than actual violent criminals.
 
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