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Enlightenment is serotonergic?
- Thread starter tryp2fun
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cryptix420
Bluelighter
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- Jul 25, 2010
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- 1,417
I wish I'd known all this time all I needed was rice pudding! I'd have saved so much money on drugs.
Noodle473
Bluelighter
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That;s a great article, really interesting. Looks like the tryptamines really are the god molecules, like DMT is labeled (at least in the documentary). But Serotonin is known as being a feel good molecule, isn't that and dopamine all other drugs we take to get high influence?
lol. I remember reading somewhere that reports of "spiritual experiences" correlated with lower levels of serotonin, rather than more. I have a hard time believing your body produces exotic psychoactive tryptamines metabolically from tryphytophan in the diet. Yeah, maybe trace exotics, but not in concentrations high enough to make any difference.
Me thinks there interrelated, spiritual/enlightenment/religious experiences and serotonin, but we know so little about that system in general i'd take any claims like this with a grain of salt. Especially ones caliming exotic tryptamines produced endogenously. No evidence afaik as to that happening. But that diddn't stop Straussman/Rogan from perpetuating that meme (not entirely their faulty, just how people interpreted straussman's theory).
The buddha's enlightenment, could have just been a down-regulation of mao from reduced tryphytophan intake, causing the body to conserve the serotonin it has. Then take a bunch of tryphytophan rich foods, and you get a flood of serotonin. Prob not SS territory, but more like the budda and an quasi-empathogenic experience from the flood of serotonin that was not metabolized by mao quickly enough since it down regulated its need to metabolize sert since there was not much when he was fasting.
Or he was a boss at working the plasticity of his mind, and willfully induced altered states using non food/drug means. Prob not exotic's like dmt, etc. Theres zero evidence dmt is produced in high enough concentrations to be remotely active endrogenously. But theres a shmorgasborg of TA's in the monoamine arena, and little known about their roles.
IMHO its all theoretical circle jerking until clinical tests are done rather than pure theorizing without putting those theories to test. Kinda like speculating on what happened before the observable barrier in the universe, cosmic background radiation. That's where the Big bang theory becomes improvable, since theres no way to test theories about what happened before then as observable light stops there. No way to test, just poetry and imagination.
Me thinks there interrelated, spiritual/enlightenment/religious experiences and serotonin, but we know so little about that system in general i'd take any claims like this with a grain of salt. Especially ones caliming exotic tryptamines produced endogenously. No evidence afaik as to that happening. But that diddn't stop Straussman/Rogan from perpetuating that meme (not entirely their faulty, just how people interpreted straussman's theory).
The buddha's enlightenment, could have just been a down-regulation of mao from reduced tryphytophan intake, causing the body to conserve the serotonin it has. Then take a bunch of tryphytophan rich foods, and you get a flood of serotonin. Prob not SS territory, but more like the budda and an quasi-empathogenic experience from the flood of serotonin that was not metabolized by mao quickly enough since it down regulated its need to metabolize sert since there was not much when he was fasting.
Or he was a boss at working the plasticity of his mind, and willfully induced altered states using non food/drug means. Prob not exotic's like dmt, etc. Theres zero evidence dmt is produced in high enough concentrations to be remotely active endrogenously. But theres a shmorgasborg of TA's in the monoamine arena, and little known about their roles.
IMHO its all theoretical circle jerking until clinical tests are done rather than pure theorizing without putting those theories to test. Kinda like speculating on what happened before the observable barrier in the universe, cosmic background radiation. That's where the Big bang theory becomes improvable, since theres no way to test theories about what happened before then as observable light stops there. No way to test, just poetry and imagination.
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sekio
Bluelight Crew
Fasting has been known to greatly intensify the results of meditation, that eating a meal after a long period of starvation would cause profound psychological changes is not a suprise to me. People do get refeeding syndrome where their body freaks out from the sudden spike in nutrition, and a milder version of this would be plausible. Just think of how much better you would feel after being hungry for a long period of time.
Do remember that this is from Med Hypotheses, a rather fringe-y journal that deals with, well, hypotheses. Not proven facts. But the above statement is very very true regardless.
I wouldn't say fasting produces a psychedelic state - it might produce an "altered state" that is more delusional than psychedelic.
He gave up his fast, ate rice pudding, and immediately meditated again, whereupon he attained "enlightenment."
According to who? Himself? What's needed is a human being who is currently alive to come up and claim enlightenment, then the rest of us can see whether we agree or not.
He gave up his fast, ate rice pudding, and immediately meditated again, whereupon he attained "enlightenment."
According to who? Himself? What's needed is a human being who is currently alive to come up and claim enlightenment, then the rest of us can see whether we agree or not.
any major dude
Bluelight Crew
I would be very hesitant to nail enlightenment down to one neurochemical. Obviously since enlightenment occurs in the brain, serotonin is going to be involved, as are a plethora of other neurotransmitters.
Also I think its probably impossible to alter 1 & only 1 neurotransmitter specifically. Brain function is so incredibly complex & intertwined as to make any simplistic explanation of any phenomenon likely incorrect. Trying to alter just 5-HT would be a bit like trying to move one section of wire in the mesh on a screen door.
Yes, obviously5-HT is involved, as are glutamatergic systems & DA, at the very least. Those 3 are so interconnected its really impossible to alter just one. And god only knows what downstream effects any of this has on hormone levels, glucocorticoids etc etc.
I think the more interesting aspect of this piece is the perpetual attempts of humans to attempt to explain complex & varied experiences with a nice neat, singular system. We always do this & its pretty much always wrong
Also I think its probably impossible to alter 1 & only 1 neurotransmitter specifically. Brain function is so incredibly complex & intertwined as to make any simplistic explanation of any phenomenon likely incorrect. Trying to alter just 5-HT would be a bit like trying to move one section of wire in the mesh on a screen door.
Yes, obviously5-HT is involved, as are glutamatergic systems & DA, at the very least. Those 3 are so interconnected its really impossible to alter just one. And god only knows what downstream effects any of this has on hormone levels, glucocorticoids etc etc.
I think the more interesting aspect of this piece is the perpetual attempts of humans to attempt to explain complex & varied experiences with a nice neat, singular system. We always do this & its pretty much always wrong
Is there any evidence that enlightenment exists at all? Other than religious crackpots who lived a few thousand years ago saying so?
any major dude
Bluelight Crew
Well, based on their descriptions, it would arguably be what research psychologists today would call a "peak" or "mystical" experience. We could argue about the semantics of "enlightenment" but that is the stuff of many pointless essays.
Could you point me to the references for those claims? All i see is a bunch of pseudo-scientific theorizing about light deprivation, melatonin, pinoline, dmt, and 5-meo.
Wheres the references to the scientific data/testing done to back up those claims? Because i don't see any. Thus zero evidence.
any major dude
Bluelight Crew
Well as I understand it there are various different concepts in eastern religions that loosely translate as enlightenment. Several of them are described as a state of insight that seems more or less like the western concepts of absolute unitary being or oceanic boundlessness, depending on your preferred terminology. The only permanent one I'm aware of is the attainment of Nirvana & the subsequent end of the life-death-rebirth cycle. I don't think anyone would argue that death is serotonergic though lol. Take this with an appropriate amount of salt though as I'm hardly an authority on the subject. I did dabble in Buddhism in my mid 20s, but hey, who didn't?
Dondante
Bluelighter
- Joined
- Dec 6, 2005
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- 1,638
Exactly...it's a hypothesis and quite a stretch to say the least. Back before Institutional Review Boards (IRBs) existed, when ethics of human subject research was rarely questioned, starvation experiments were carried out. A prominent study, the Minnesota Starvation Experiment, involved a 24 week starvation period, followed by 12 weeks restricted rehabilitation diet. As far as I'm aware, there were no incidents of mystical experience during refeeding. The only consequences of refeeding sydrome that I'm aware of are electrolyte disturbances (primarily hypophosphatemia), fluid balance disturbances, and cardiac arrhythmias that can lead to death.
Survived Abortion
Bluelighter
I've always considered the Buddhist concept of enlightenment to be exactly equal to the attainment of Nirvana. Going on that presupposition, I have a couple of things to say:
Firstly, the Buddhist concept of "enlightenment" as a reality is impossible to achieve. (That is, impossible to achieve whilst you any of us are "alive" in a continually fluctuating universe.) Only when we are all "enlightened" can any one of us be. And that can only happen when the universe becomes nothing ('the big crunch' or whatever people want to call it). Anybody thinking and proclaiming they are permanently enlightened are the biggest fools (and charlatans) of all. All the while there is an active universe pushing-pulling with you via cause and effect you will never remain in "enlightenment". Impossible.
Secondly, the glimpses of that state we call "enlightenment", "samadhi", "heaven", "eternity", "peak states", "++++ experiences" - whatever else you want to call it - cannot simply be pinned down to just one molecule in the brain. The entire body acts in total harmony to achieve that state, although as with all such experiences there is always an 'entry point' from which the entire cascade follows and becomes temporarily self-sustaining. In the case of psychedelic drugs, it is predominantly serotonergic, but this doesn't necessarily mean that other methods use the same entry point.
There's another point I'd like to make. I completed a 5 day water-only fast earlier this year, and breaking the fast (on a banana) was a highly quasi-psychedelic event, resplendent with colourful visuals and a ridiculously euphoric headrush. The sugar rush was insane, it felt like my brain was exploding with crackling fires of pleasure. I can see why Buddha would have confused this with being a transcendent state, especially if he had been fasting for a month or more. He would have been off his tits. And he would have come to some profound realizations about the nature of dependence.
Nevertheless, I found that the physical detoxification, the insights gained, and the emotional catharsis experienced during the fasting process itself were what provided the lasting benefits. Breaking the fast is a necessary measure if you want to continue in the game of life, but the actual experience that accompanies it is more of a biological reward of pleasure, and less of an ego dissolving space-fuck.
This also illuminates the point I made a couple of months back about the distinction between "sobriety" and "intoxication" being a false one. Fasting made me realize that food itself is an intoxicant, and that hunger pangs are merely withdrawal symptoms. There is no true baseline state which you can rightly call as "sober" (and hence judge all else as "intoxication"), because everything is in a continual state of flux, and we are always intoxicated and detoxifying. The only thing which you could call true baseline is the eternal singularity of potentiality. As living biological organisms, we are never in true equilibrium, and in fact we are far from it, even when most of us think we are "sober".
Life itself is an addiction, the greatest and most complex there is. But it doesn't make it a bad thing. On the contrary, it goes to show that the idea of 'addiction as a disease' is utterly preposterous. Because if addiction was a disease, then we all have that disease. We could all break the addiction to being alive if we wanted to (and some do), but we choose to be here merely because we enjoy it, and not because of some ultimate purpose.
Firstly, the Buddhist concept of "enlightenment" as a reality is impossible to achieve. (That is, impossible to achieve whilst you any of us are "alive" in a continually fluctuating universe.) Only when we are all "enlightened" can any one of us be. And that can only happen when the universe becomes nothing ('the big crunch' or whatever people want to call it). Anybody thinking and proclaiming they are permanently enlightened are the biggest fools (and charlatans) of all. All the while there is an active universe pushing-pulling with you via cause and effect you will never remain in "enlightenment". Impossible.
Secondly, the glimpses of that state we call "enlightenment", "samadhi", "heaven", "eternity", "peak states", "++++ experiences" - whatever else you want to call it - cannot simply be pinned down to just one molecule in the brain. The entire body acts in total harmony to achieve that state, although as with all such experiences there is always an 'entry point' from which the entire cascade follows and becomes temporarily self-sustaining. In the case of psychedelic drugs, it is predominantly serotonergic, but this doesn't necessarily mean that other methods use the same entry point.
There's another point I'd like to make. I completed a 5 day water-only fast earlier this year, and breaking the fast (on a banana) was a highly quasi-psychedelic event, resplendent with colourful visuals and a ridiculously euphoric headrush. The sugar rush was insane, it felt like my brain was exploding with crackling fires of pleasure. I can see why Buddha would have confused this with being a transcendent state, especially if he had been fasting for a month or more. He would have been off his tits. And he would have come to some profound realizations about the nature of dependence.
Nevertheless, I found that the physical detoxification, the insights gained, and the emotional catharsis experienced during the fasting process itself were what provided the lasting benefits. Breaking the fast is a necessary measure if you want to continue in the game of life, but the actual experience that accompanies it is more of a biological reward of pleasure, and less of an ego dissolving space-fuck.
This also illuminates the point I made a couple of months back about the distinction between "sobriety" and "intoxication" being a false one. Fasting made me realize that food itself is an intoxicant, and that hunger pangs are merely withdrawal symptoms. There is no true baseline state which you can rightly call as "sober" (and hence judge all else as "intoxication"), because everything is in a continual state of flux, and we are always intoxicated and detoxifying. The only thing which you could call true baseline is the eternal singularity of potentiality. As living biological organisms, we are never in true equilibrium, and in fact we are far from it, even when most of us think we are "sober".
Life itself is an addiction, the greatest and most complex there is. But it doesn't make it a bad thing. On the contrary, it goes to show that the idea of 'addiction as a disease' is utterly preposterous. Because if addiction was a disease, then we all have that disease. We could all break the addiction to being alive if we wanted to (and some do), but we choose to be here merely because we enjoy it, and not because of some ultimate purpose.
Rorthron
Bluelighter
Great post, Survived Abortion!
I would like only to add that Enlightenment can only occur if you are actually looking for it. If you actually delved in complex issue of existence. Buddha had realized two of the 4 noble truths (suffering and desire) and was actually looking for the solution of the whole puzzle, and following all the exercises of many sadhus of his time. Only when that quest for the ultimate answer fills every pore of one's mind can enlightenment occur. And that is more difficult than enlightenment itself.
I would like only to add that Enlightenment can only occur if you are actually looking for it. If you actually delved in complex issue of existence. Buddha had realized two of the 4 noble truths (suffering and desire) and was actually looking for the solution of the whole puzzle, and following all the exercises of many sadhus of his time. Only when that quest for the ultimate answer fills every pore of one's mind can enlightenment occur. And that is more difficult than enlightenment itself.
well people meditated for thousand of years and did their own kind of long term research. in all kinds of possible directions. one example being yoga and zen as opposed schools of thought, teaching different techniques. i wouldnt go that far to call all that "religious bs". to me its just a form of empirical science and alot of it makes sense. things that work get constantly revised and are practically usable in altered states. they were constantly cartographing the mind, experienced something interesting and found ways to tell others how to get there. i wouldnt take that kind of archievement lightly and alot of this knowledge has for example hugely influenced modern psychology. its a very deep and unique way of structuring life, learning and constantly rebuilding the mind. the mind does that anyway, constant reshaping. cant hurt to do that with a bit strategy and focus. also the mind always tries to get better in problems he solves, so its no mystery to me that people who constantly work at themselves and their abilities eventually are able to trigger different higher states through various techniques. the experience "enlightenment" itself is well documented, and is being archieved by many people every day. i think that is all very thorough and practicable if one is willing to learn and its not much mystical about it. one could argue but i believe most of us take a shortcut route over drugs and lighten up those circuits directly. and often do so without proper experience, to get something out of it or do so for purely hedonistic purposes, not archieving any improvement or even getting on the destructive side, destroying the mind. id say thats a real up- and downside of psychedelics. they have great potential of self improvement but sticking feathers up your ass doesnt make you a chicken. its not like you eat a pill and somehow magically archieve enlightenment. scepticism would be understandable there. but i believe some people know their body well enough and reshaped their mind in a way, that its possible for them to trigger an enlightenment state through eating of rice pudding after fasting and might tell others how to do so.
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panic in paradise
Bluelighter
The understated assumption of the experience is so prevelent in this, it is kind of sweet.
tiger108
Greenlighter
Such a great way to express what enlightment means! Thank you!