worried about a friend.. -LSD

[username840]

if your friend carried around a bottle for 6 months, dosing himself at will... then he likely had neurotic issues preceding lsd-use which have little to do with his use of lsd or cannabis.
in irresponsible use of the substance, one can become confused, as i have seen in some friends, and attribute thoughts and ideas that they would have otherwise had without or with lsd/ psychedelics but due to its irrational quality and the ease to attribute lacked logic to a "drug," one does so.

this is speculation, of course.

 

[bluedolphin]

Taking 100 doses of LSD in 6 months is a lot... people can and do take more but really that's still a good amount.

The symptoms you describe in your friend are that of a schizophrenic break, or schizoaffective disorder.

Since your friend hasn't had LSD in 6-7 months as you say, and has continued smoking weed, I would suggest he/she stop smoking weed. Many people can recover from SCZ breaks especially if they are induced by drugs (I have done it, myself, and yes my symptoms resembled that, and yes, I am fully recovered). But this won't happen without seriously laying off the drugs. In my opinion continual cannabis use is more prone to trigger and prolong SCZ breaks than using LSD. But everyone is different, so who knows what's to blame. It doesn't really matter. What matters is your friend's recovery.

Get him/her off all drugs, if possible, and get him/her to a therapist. Avoid a psychiatrist unless sobriety and therapy fail, as a shrink will just put your friend on antipsychotic drugs immediately and therefore fuck up his/her life with this kind of medication which should only be used in severe circumstances.

 

[Ismene]

He was saying a psychedelic experience may trigger a psychotic break in an individual who is predisposed to have one. ie an individual who would eventually have a psychotic break whether or not s/he had any psychedelics.

Do we have any evidence to support this tho? It seems like if you have a psychotic episode at any time after taking a drug then the drug is automatically the cause, but if you have a psychotic break when you havn't taken a drug then the cause is assumed to be "just one of those things". I'm questioning the supposed "link" between the drug and the psychosis.

yes so of course an intense psychedelic experience could be one of those reasons.

It could be, and it might not be. Does a psychotic break always have to have a specific reason? "He had a psychotic break because his girlfriend left him"? or "He had a psychotic break because he took LSD"? Or do psychotic breaks just happen because of the nature of human physiology?

btw, the incidence of schizophrenic diagnosis doubled in SE London between 1965 and 1997.

But you arn't seriously trying to suggest that means schizophrenia rates doubled in London between 65 and 97 are you? Psychosis and schizophrenia rates have remained stable and constant for the last 100 years.

If LSD and cannabis are triggering psychosis why do countries where use of such drugs is very low - such as Sweden and Japan - have similar rates of psychosis to the US where use of such drugs is widespread?

 

[TangerinO]

Do we have any evidence to support this tho? It seems like if you have a psychotic episode at any time after taking a drug then the drug is automatically the cause, but if you have a psychotic break when you havn't taken a drug then the cause is assumed to be "just one of those things". I'm questioning the supposed "link" between the drug and the psychosis.

^ ^ This is always the hardest discussion to have with someone who hasn't got an open mind. I 110% agree with this.

I watched a dude go crazy from weed in College, but at the same time we were all smoking the same weed, like 20 of us, and a shitload more of it too.
Is it really more likely that the weed did it, or say something like his home life? We don't know what he was going through his head, he may have been nuts before he put that joint to his lips. His parents might have been abusing him or some shit, how the hell do we know? What I do know is he's in the serious minority.

Sorry OP this isn't really relevant to you. I'll shut up now.

 

[laugh]

how does he explain his behaviour then if he doesnt believe it to be psychosis or another form of mental illness?

i find it strange that the lsd is being questioned more so than the ganja. if he hasnt dosed any lsd in months yet he is currently smoking...you first think its got to be the lsd...why? i woulda thought you would get him off the ganja and see how he fairs...

there is such taboo around lsd its just outrageous. it always comes from suckers that have never dosed lsd helping with their informed comments. why the fuck do people insist on commenting about lsd if they havnt personally tried it? i find it extremely hard for someone that has never dosed lsd to have any fucking idea about the stuff...how does one even begin to put the lsd experience into words, it could never be done justice

turning on the news in the morning to be bombarded with absolute fucking bullshit is enough to put me into psychosis

 

[Ismene]

^ ^ This is always the hardest discussion to have with someone who hasn't got an open mind. I 110% agree with this.

Maybe it's the hysterical prohibition propaganda influencing doctors. I imagine they are in such terror of LSD that if someone says "I took LSD once about 6 months ago" the doctor would more often than not put that down as the "cause" of the psychosis.

I wonder what they'd put down as the "cause" if the patient didn't tell them he took LSD?

 

[twelvesevndi]

It could be, and it might not be. Does a psychotic break always have to have a specific reason?

afaik its fairly common for a certain life event to be the trigger. provide me with some scholarly resources indicating otherwise if i am wrong.

But you arn't seriously trying to suggest that means schizophrenia rates doubled in London between 65 and 97 are you? Psychosis and schizophrenia rates have remained stable and constant for the last 100 years.

did you not read that article i linked? i didn't make that figure up, it comes from diligent research.

why is it so unreasonable to think that an intense, emotionally-charged experience could trigger latent psychosis?

i find it strange that the lsd is being questioned more so than the ganja. if he hasnt dosed any lsd in months yet he is currently smoking...you first think its got to be the lsd...why? i woulda thought you would get him off the ganja and see how he fairs...

excellent point. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15129466 (full-text available in the "link-out" dropdown)

 

[Ismene]

afaik its fairly common for a certain life event to be the trigger.

In what sense? You can always blame something in the past can't you - is there any serious evidence supporting this theory tho?

i didn't make that figure up

But I asked you what it meant. You arn't saying schizoprhrenia rates in London have doubled in the last 40 years are you?

why is it so unreasonable to think that an intense, emotionally-charged experience could trigger latent psychosis?

It's not unreasonable, there's just no evidence for it. And if psychedelics were triggering it why hasn't there been an enormous spike in cases over the last 50 years since psychedelics began being used?

 

[kidklmx]

In what sense? You can always blame something in the past can't you - is there any serious evidence supporting this theory tho?

i didn't make that figure up

But I asked you what it meant. You arn't saying schizoprhrenia rates in London have doubled in the last 40 years are you?

why is it so unreasonable to think that an intense, emotionally-charged experience could trigger latent psychosis?

It's not unreasonable, there's just no evidence for it. And if psychedelics were triggering it why hasn't there been an enormous spike in cases over the last 50 years since psychedelics began being used?

Do you realize how little amount of people take Weed regularly enough to be considered a liability and at the same time being sensitive to psychosis? Yes there are a LOT of people that dose up, but in the end how many people are regulars? Over here in Holland we have about 10,000 (out of about 16m) people that are considered "die-hard smokers" (which they say equals to 3 spliffs a week), and while I question the validity of that figure, it is an indication. So, out of those 10,000 people, if (unscientific here, but illustrative) maybe 5% gets psychosis/schizophrenia then only 500 people get it. Out of 16m people, only 2% get those issues, which boils down to about 320,000 people. (woah, dystopian society) Now, how would those 500 people affect the schizophrenia rates?

Face-it, a lot of drug users ARE a liability. They're (we're? ) broken or lonely or whatever, not really "psychologically stable" as you might say. Does that get you psychotic? No, but the human psyche is a real mystery to us and there could be a lot of factors at play.

As a final note, when we don't know if psychedelics and weed may or may not bring us psychosis and the whole shebang, than maybe.. just MAYBE, it would be a smarter idea to drop doing such things when there are signs of it.

 

[laugh]

3 joints a week isn't what I would call a heavy or 'diehard' toker. Would you consider a person drinking half a bottle of red 3 times a week a heavy or diehard drinker?

Your final note is imo common sense & blairingly obvious...if people need that shit pointed out to them then they shouldn't be fucking with either

 

[kidklmx]

Well, it's not what I think "heavy cannabis user", which I pointed out, but that where the criteria in that particular survey. (Which was done by Trimbos, the guys that collect the facts on our nation's mental health, in 2011)

 

[bluedolphin]

Amazing you guys are focused on defending one drug or another for being "the cause".

It could have been either the weed or the acid, or both, or neither. It doesn't really matter. What matters is that OP's friend gets help as this sounds like a relatively serious mental crisis.

 

[Ismene]

Now, how would those 500 people affect the schizophrenia rates?

I imagine it would put them through the roof. 500 people a year getting it who wern't getting it in 1960 when hardly anyone took cannabis or psychedelics? I'd be seriously looking at drugs as the cause if that were the case.

I mean if you introduce cigaretttes to a population that has never experienced them before - what happens? The cancer rates go up. That's kinda why you know they cause cancer. And yet we can introduce psychedelic drugs to vast numbers of people and things like schizophrenia and psychosis don't change. You've got to ask yourself why.

Face-it, a lot of drug users ARE a liability. They're (we're? ) broken or lonely or whatever, not really "psychologically stable" as you might say.

I'm not sure they are. I know it's not fashionable to say so but I don't think all, or even most, drug users are particularly fucked up. Ok, if you're injecting heroin into the vein under the cock then perhaps you need to check yourself, but someone who enjoys mushrooms once a month? Is he really any broken or lonely than anyone else?

 

[kidklmx]

Ismene, apart from my 10,000 dutch weed users figure, any other one wasn't correct and just for illustrative purposes. I think the actual figures would be MUCH lower, as the genetically predisposed people that DO take an excessive amount of <compound> aren't all that numerous (A low amount of a low amount of people). I don't think you can compare this to nicotine and lung cancer.

I'm not inclined to believe that drugs would be the main cause of these issues (which is part of your point), however I feel it COULD be the trigger. Regardless of what you say, Weed doesn't help here, and a lot of people feel inclined that it and LSD makes matters worse. There is nothing wrong with caution, you know?

Also, with super-monster LSD doses (I.E 2mgs+) there have been numerous people being taken into a mental hospital and having psychotic behavior for quite some weeks. And don't forget Todd Skinner and his whole psychotic breakdown. (you know, from Pickard-Apperson, the guy NeuroSoup was with) Oh, and ever heard of Charles Manson? All of these are due to EXCESSIVE (all-caps) amounts, and those trips could be psychologically jarring by themselves.

 

[laugh]

If you eat that much what are you expecting?

Would Todd and Charlie have been the nicest guys without the psychs...I doubt it

Talk is cheap at the best of times but we gotta talk about something mr dolphin and it's easy to lay blame

 

[pofacedhoe]

uhhh as someone who has had no psychosis from cannabis but a lot from amphetamine and one serious episode from lsd i can say that sometimes drugs trigger psychosis. they should still be legalised anyway.

 

[Ismene]

Ismene, apart from my 10,000 dutch weed users figure, any other one wasn't correct and just for illustrative purposes. I think the actual figures would be MUCH lower, as the genetically predisposed people that DO take an excessive amount of <compound> aren't all that numerous (A low amount of a low amount of people). I don't think you can compare this to nicotine and lung cancer.

You don't think introducing drugs to millions of people would have any effect on the schizophrenia rates at all?

Oh, and ever heard of Charles Manson?

This is the problem tho isn't it kidkl, Manson was bad news long before he ever took LSD. To try and blame his crimes on LSD is pretty far-fetched. In fact what were his crimes? He asked OTHERS to go and kill someone..and you're blaming LSD for that?

A lot of criminals are going to claim "I was on LSD.." because it makes it sound like if they wern't on LSD they would be a sweet guy helping your elderly mother across the street.

 

[Ismene]

uhhh as someone who has had no psychosis from cannabis but a lot from amphetamine and one serious episode from lsd i can say that sometimes drugs trigger psychosis.

Psychosis meaning what? Do you now have schizophrenia from a dose of LSD?

I'm quite sure taking lots and lots of drugs can make you act funny for a while - I'm just questioning whether they trigger schizophrenia.

 

[SPDemon420]

Amazing you guys are focused on defending one drug or another for being "the cause".

It could have been either the weed or the acid, or both, or neither. It doesn't really matter. What matters is that OP's friend gets help as this sounds like a relatively serious mental crisis.

this.

 

[Ismene]

^^

I think it does matter what the cause of the illness is - devoting your life to the belief that LSD caused your psychosis when it wasn't may result in you recieving completely the wrong treatment. If he's got schizophrenia he needs treatment for schizophrenia, not a reaction to LSD.