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Opioids CWE -- How Much APAP is Removed?

M

Michael_25

Bluelighter
Joined
Oct 19, 2009
Messages
702
Location
Gainesville, Florida
I've been doing two Cold Water Extractions a day for the past few days. I have been using coffee filters. I have been using one filter for the first filter then I re-filter the liquid through a second coffee filter. All my solutions come out virtually clear, like water. But it has me worried. I'm using 24 tablets that have 500 mg of APAP in them, so that's 12 grams of APAP. How much APAP is seeping into the solution? Has anyone else done CWEs daily with a large amount of pills? How long have you been doing it for and do you feel any adverse effects? I seldom feel this dull pain where my liver is, but I think it may be a psychosomatic reaction.

By the way, I examine the coffee filters when I'm done with them to ensure there is no rip/hole in them.
 
Paracetamol has a solubility of 17.39 mg/l (30 C) in water at 30 Celsius degrees*.

That's all you need to know to calculate this. For a filter not to get clogged I used to use 10ml for every 10g of APAP years ago if I wanted to get a solution for i.m. injection, otherwise, I would end up with more water so the solution doesn't get mash-like. You have 521.7 g of paracetamol in a 30ml saturated solution this way, it's always terribly supersaturated. I used to use like 1.5g of codeine phosphate a day, so I used like at most one regular 500mg paracetamol pill a day. My liver is fine, it's been through worse, I guess. 4 years on methadone did me much worse than that, I'm sure.

*source: Journal of Chemical and Engineering Data, Vol. 44, No. 6, 1999 (1 kg of distilled water is 1 dm3 of distilled water)
 
APAP is relatively non-soluble, but it's also very hard to quantitate exactly how much it's removed. The number of ~15 mg/L is actually an upper limit.

If you use small-ish volume of cold water, you are probably ingesting the equivalent of one single tylenol per dose (less than 350mg apap).
 
I am not a chemist. Clearly. I judge it upon how cloudy the water appears to be. (it should never be even remotely cloudy. it should appear as water with a horrific taste) Let the solution sit for about 30 minutes and come back to it, if you see even a slight white layer on the bottle of the glass, do it again. The more times you do this, you will just know* by judging the appearance (if you dont know how to test things chemically speaking like people have said above)
 
^Cloudiness should not be your sole indicator for good procedure or not, your eyes cannot quantify milligrams, especially not APAP that's in liquid solution. However, as a very basic indicator, I suppose it's alright. But I certainly wouldn't be risking shit based on how a solution looked, but I'm just extra careful.

I wouldn't consume anything (drugs) that someone other than myself prepared.
 
sekio said:
APAP is relatively non-soluble, but it's also very hard to quantitate exactly how much it's removed.
Click to expand...

It's easy for me haha! I do it within 3 standard deviations and it only begs for more precision :)

sekio said:
The number of ~15 mg/L is actually an upper limit.
Click to expand...

15mg/mL

sekio said:
If you use 20mL of cold water at 25C, you are ingesting 300mg of APAP, the equivalent of one single Tylenol pill.
Click to expand...

Fixed.
 
KSA, how do you quantitate removal of APAP? or is this just theoretical calculations? Do remember that dissolving APAP in pure distilled water is one thing but APAP in a messy mix of dyes, binders, starches, caffeine, salts etc... that's going to be tougher. You do have me there that the number is ~15 mg/ml, it's in the single digits when it gets close to 0 degC.

I imagine for those interested the best method to quantify removal of solids would be to evaporate the water off to dryness (gently on a steam bath/"double boiler"), & see how much acetone soluble APAP you have versus insoluble codeine-phos.

Doing a bunch of math to say X milligrams of codeine will end up in Y ml of water is great but if you don't have ideal conditions your math will be off. In the end its the end product you deliver not the thoertical yield that matters


The *best* way I have seen for removing contaminants in codeine is a rather ingenious fractional crystallization. So basically do a normal CWE, but then gently steam-bath off 50% of the water or whatever, and chill it again, and more APAP (and caffeine) come out as precipitate. Repeat this process a few times until you have just enough water for your codeine to be dissolved, plus a little excess (1-2ml).
 
sekio said:
KSA, how do you quantitate removal of APAP? or is this just theoretical calculations? Do remember that dissolving APAP in pure distilled water is one thing but APAP in a messy mix of dyes, binders, starches, caffeine, salts etc... that's going to be tougher. You do have me there that the number is ~15 mg/ml, it's in the single digits when it gets close to 0 degC.

I imagine for those interested the best method to quantify removal of solids would be to evaporate the water off to dryness (gently on a steam bath/"double boiler"), & see how much acetone soluble APAP you have versus insoluble codeine-phos.

Doing a bunch of math to say X milligrams of codeine will end up in Y ml of water is great but if you don't have ideal conditions your math will be off. In the end its the end product you deliver not the thoertical yield that matters


The *best* way I have seen for removing contaminants in codeine is a rather ingenious fractional crystallization. So basically do a normal CWE, but then gently steam-bath off 50% of the water or whatever, and chill it again, and more APAP (and caffeine) come out as precipitate. Repeat this process a few times until you have just enough water for your codeine to be dissolved, plus a little excess (1-2ml).
Click to expand...

Interesting, that's basically how I do my CWE's on the rare occasions that I perform one, albeit with hydro/oxycodone rather than codeine phosphate. Glad to know it's Sekio - approved though.
 
sekio said:
KSA, how do you quantitate removal of APAP? or is this just theoretical calculations? Do remember that dissolving APAP in pure distilled water is one thing but APAP in a messy mix of dyes, binders, starches, caffeine, salts etc... that's going to be tougher. You do have me there that the number is ~15 mg/ml, it's in the single digits when it gets close to 0 degC.
Click to expand...

You do it with calculation. There are no dyes unless the pill is colored, never seen those personally. Starches are water insoluble, I don't know if you ever made oobleck LOL :). Salts like magnesium stearate are also insoluble. These are the ONLY factors influencing APAP solubility by factor of importance:

PVP (polyvinylpyrollidone, or povidone)
Codeine
Caffeine
Acetaminophen

It's a 4 terms calculation with 4x Ks.

sekio said:
Doing a bunch of math to say X milligrams of codeine will end up in Y ml of water is great but if you don't have ideal conditions your math will be off. In the end its the end product you deliver not the thoertical yield that matters
Click to expand...

It's all we got lol. An HPLC will not give you much better and you probably don't got one.It's true that theoretical calculations can sometimes be off but it's not a reason to never do them. Off like they are, engineers rely on those calculations and put the lives of 10s of thousands of people onto them. They simply can't do it in any other way. Just remember the next time you drive by a cyanide plant, the reactor parameters like temperature and pressure are obtained with approximations and computation calculations. If you manage to survive the pass-by, it means the calculations are good enough. :)

sekio said:
The *best* way I have seen for removing contaminants in codeine is a rather ingenious fractional crystallization. So basically do a normal CWE, but then gently steam-bath off 50% of the water or whatever, and chill it again, and more APAP (and caffeine) come out as precipitate. Repeat this process a few times until you have just enough water for your codeine to be dissolved, plus a little excess (1-2ml).
Click to expand...

Great method.
 
Erm I saw a study a couple of years ago that was conducted here in Australia in response to the huge rise in codeine CWE (codeine is OTC here, not sure if it's the same in America) which measured how much APAP was removed by this method.

I tried really hard to find it, and even did an academic search using my university account but can't find it.

From memory it was high 90s in % effectiveness at removing APAP.

I'm pretty sure I saw this here on Bluelight so it would be cool if anyone else could reference it.
 
AminoAcid said:
Erm I saw a study a couple of years ago that was conducted here in Australia in response to the huge rise in codeine CWE (codeine is OTC here, not sure if it's the same in America) which measured how much APAP was removed by this method.

I tried really hard to find it, and even did an academic search using my university account but can't find it.

From memory it was high 90s in % effectiveness at removing APAP.

I'm pretty sure I saw this here on Bluelight so it would be cool if anyone else could reference it.
Click to expand...

It depends what product you try to obtain. If you only settle for a quality cold water extract, the best % APAP removal is:

100-[8mg/mL/300mg/pill]x100 = 100-[8(mgxpill)/300(mLxmg)]x100 = 100-[8pill/300mL]x100 = 97.3%

If you evaporate the water and recrystallize until the caffeine precipitates and you obtain codeine "honey", the percentage of APAP removed can go above 99%.
 
From what i know it minor almost insignificant amounts that go through
 
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