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Ayahuasca Sun Tea...? is it possible to create active huasca brews without fire?

thoughtsUnThought

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Joined
Apr 5, 2006
Messages
925
Lets say the material was powdered and multiple teas were made using the same material...would a significant amount of alkaloid be extractable this way? What if it was left for days in 100°F sunny heat...?

Watcha think?
 
I east a mostly raw food diet...when I am in nature, where a spend about half my time (living in a camper in the woods) particularly I prefer to not cook. It helps my body to stay regulated in such heat and maintains hydration better.

I do so in the city for health and detoxification purposes, I'm a health dude lol.

The science is essentially increasing enzyme counts and maximizing nutrition..but cooking anything increases the acrylamide content (heavy compound, carcinogen) as well as incites a leukocytosis response in the body (waste of our energy reserve) if cooked past ~160°F ....but heat degrades many compounds, both nutritional and psychoactive..! And given that it feels lighter and cleaner to eat raw and gets my consciousness into a much more lucid and meditative state, and naturally I like to feel my best going into trips, generally I will fruit fast or something before an intense exp.

I'm not arguing health here, I'm no expert, but this works for me and many other raw foodists, thus lies the ground for my questioning, for I am one of the lesserly common detox health people who value psychedelics :-)

Any understanding of the potential extractability of harmala, harmaline, and dmt at 70– 100°F...(potentially with aid of fruit acidity, vinegar etc)? This is a more pertinent question friend lol I'm not hear to ramble afoot my diet, but discuss psychedelics of course!
 
thoughtsUnThought said:
The science is essentially increasing enzyme counts and maximizing nutrition..but cooking anything increases the acrylamide content (heavy compound, carcinogen) as well as incites a leukocytosis response in the body (waste of our energy reserve) if cooked past ~160°F ....but heat degrades many compounds, both nutritional and psychoactive..!

The science is mostly bullshit. Increased plant enzymes don't necessarily assist digestion. That's what human digestive enzymes are for. Sure, cooking removes some nutrients (vitamins, minerals, phytonutrients etc.) depending on how you cook it and for how long etc. But if it was that serious then everyone would be starving, and that is clearly not the case. Most people don't eat 100% raw, yet most humans are actually very well nourished indeed.

There are only a few notable deficiencies in the modern (20th century) western diet, but they are due mainly to aggressive agriculture and the depletion of minerals from the soil. This is why many people are purported to be somewhat lacking in magnesium, because soil magnesium levels are less than 50% what they were in the 19th century. But even then, very few are suffering critical depletions.

I don't care how raw you are, you will never achieve a true paleolithic raw food diet like cavemen would have eaten. You will never find the food that you eat today growing or roaming naturally in the wilderness, because everything is agriculturalized, produced, and processed to some extent. Do you think humans living in the stone age would have come across raw vegan falafels hanging off trees in their local forest?

And it wouldn't be "natural" to eat true paleo now anyway. The human organism has adapted so much since then that it would cause way more trouble than it's worth. You may think you're a "health person" and that us mere lowly mortals are just unhealthy scumbags, but the rub of it is this: there is no 'one size fits all' diet for everybody. This may be news to you, but every person has unique metabolic and nutritional requirements, and as such we all require different diets. So what is unhealthy to you may not necessarily be so to someone else.

thoughtsUnThought said:
And given that it feels lighter and cleaner to eat raw and gets my consciousness into a much more lucid and meditative state, and naturally I like to feel my best going into trips, generally I will fruit fast or something before an intense exp.

I'm not arguing health here, I'm no expert, but this works for me and many other raw foodists, thus lies the ground for my questioning, for I am one of the lesserly common detox health people who value psychedelics :-)

Any understanding of the potential extractability of harmala, harmaline, and dmt at 70– 100°F...(potentially with aid of fruit acidity, vinegar etc)?

So what your saying is, you think there's a possibility that cooking the ayahuasca may remove the life-force of the DMT and harmaline (based on the reasoning that cooking food denatures proteins and destroys phytoenzymes)? Please excuse me whilst I decide whether to laugh or cry.

You can put your cold-water ayahuasca in the midday solstice sun, dance round the pot chanting hare krishna, pour it over a crystal skull, and drink it with silver-colloids and it still won't give you any more of a life-boosting experience than if you had ripped the DMT out of the mimosa with lye and taken it in a capsule with an MAOI.

Honestly.

thoughtsUnThought said:
I'm not arguing health here... I'm not hear to ramble afoot my diet

But you do tend to do that quite a lot, don't you. Rub it in people's faces every chance you get.
 
Wow that was a very aggressive response...i am sorry my dietary choices upset you so.
I don't rub anything in anyone face intentionally, apologies if I do come off that way. I just eat what feels right, I am not a preacher of my diet as a way of life for anyone else... I'd appreciate similar respect regarding your seething distaste for me and what I say, could we keep the thread on topic please?

I am not addressing ritual surrounding the preparation beyond the preparation technique, I don't know why you are taking this as a mystical idea friend. I am asking if a cwe with the aid of acidity is capable of extracting the alkaloids within the plants.

You sound very rant–ish, scripted anti mystical aggression...for the reason I don't know. Please vent your aggression elsewhere, or point out what you disagree with about me in a more honourable manner than off topic mud slinging.

I only mentioned diet specifically because Iamme asked why the question was pertinent, this thread isn't about food.
Who cares what I eat ? I strive for what feels to be the healthiest for me, I agree that the Babylon doesn't provide many truly natural foods, but I strive to do the best I can when I'm in the city still. Not to support some cultural iconic "hipness" (yeah dude its cool to be natural man, totally)but rather to feel good and healthy. I am into foraging and eating local medicinal weeds so I really do digg the primitivism...what about anything I've said implies falafels? Lol funny image, but not very correlative to me, and far far far from relevant to the topic at hand.


The life force is not really arguable over as there's no measurement for it.....i don't really discuss mysticism here often, mostly the chemistry or qualitative experiences of psychedelics. I don't know if the life force degrades or whateve, I do know that I like to eat primarily raw, so I asked a friendly question on a public board.

I feel sad wasting my time responding to such mundane antics really, makes me sad that you'd be so ignorant to me without myself having provoked any bs between us...best of progressions friend, please be happy and not such a dick.
 
DMT & mescaline are incredibly heat stable (at least in boiling water), as evidenced from the routine manufacture of brews, teas, decoctions etc. without too much loss.

I do know that if you mulch most dmt-containing material with acid water for "a while" (key variables: surface area, water volume, temperature, acididty) all the alkaloids should come out to play in the water, (provided the plant phenols you're worried about preserving don't immediately precipitate them as tarry salts).

I can't provide any hard data but I do know a few things:
* hotter is better (boiling water is best)
* cold water will work too but will take longer to effect the same extraction
* powder is best, fine mulch is okay, large chunks will take forever
* lemon, lime or citrus juice won't hurt (1 fruit per dose is good)
* finely powdered material (e.g. rootbark) can be cold-extracted with water, lye and hexanes/heptane/naptha with reasonable yields with a maybe 3 hour soak.
 
Thanks! that's good information!

I am not wanting to defat or refine after the cwe, ideally just drink the tea straight. I believe you provide d the necessary info though when saying the goodies will come to play in the water.
I'll give it a go and post back :-) just gotta get this stuff ground ha that'll be fun
 
I've only done oral DMT once, but when I did it I just ate some powdered harmala seeds half an hour before chugging down an extract of powdered mimosa that I did with cold water and lemon juice.
The mimosa root bark had steeped in the lemon water for maybe two days, but I think just overnight will be good too. Worked like a charm.
 
I wanna try this too! I am pretty much contented with drinking ayahuasca tea right now but I want to try the ayahuasca sun tea too!

No sourcing allowed. It's rule #1 of the user agreement you should have read.

~Never
 
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They drank aya before they had pots to boil the tea in..years ago they would pound the vine in water and drink this..after learning how to fire pots that could boil water they developed modern techniques for making aya. So its not like his idea is a new idea of making aya just a less used one...op there is a reason that the modern tech is preferred now...lol
 
Remember that the natives wern't always taking ayahuasca to trip tho - some just used it because they were riddled with worms and yage makes violently shit and vomit - which they believed would help them get rid of worms.
 
I east a mostly raw food diet...when I am in nature, where a spend about half my time (living in a camper in the woods) particularly I prefer to not cook. It helps my body to stay regulated in such heat and maintains hydration better.

I do so in the city for health and detoxification purposes, I'm a health dude lol.

The science is essentially increasing enzyme counts and maximizing nutrition..but cooking anything increases the acrylamide content (heavy compound, carcinogen) as well as incites a leukocytosis response in the body (waste of our energy reserve) if cooked past ~160°F ....but heat degrades many compounds, both nutritional and psychoactive..! And given that it feels lighter and cleaner to eat raw and gets my consciousness into a much more lucid and meditative state, and naturally I like to feel my best going into trips, generally I will fruit fast or something before an intense exp.

I'm struggling here to understand how you can possibly increase enzyme counts in produce that has been picked from its plant. Sure, produce is still alive when and for a while after it is picked, but the cells begin to experience negative effects from being cut off from the circulatory system of the mother plant, and begin to experience various forms of stress. The metabolism of the cells within whatever raw produce you're about to eat have begun to die off and those cells that still live have reduced their metabolism, so I don't see how you can get higher amounts of enzymes from picked produce. If you're talking about having more enzymes relative to cooked food, perhaps, but as a rule almost all enzymes are destroyed by the strongly acidic conditions in the stomach, being denatured as surely as if they had been cooked. There is a reason that ceviche uses acid to 'cook' food, and like juice, with a pH of 2-3, is about the same as the average pH of the stomach (which swings from 1-2 to 4-5 depending on whether you've eaten recently, etc).

According to the precepts of raw food as a lifestyle, what benefits would be realized from having more enzymes? There are obvious benefits to having more vitamins and minerals, so that's no question.

You do realize that almost all of the carcinogens associated with cooking food are actually the result of cooking meat specifically, right? The same sorts of Maillard reactions and caramelizations that make compounds in the crust on a seared or grilled piece of meat taste good are the very reactions that produce the carcinogens, since those carcinogens happen to taste great! I say this as a vegetarian myself, I don't think meat is particularly flavorful, but everybody else seems to think it is, and the crust is supposed to be the best part.

While I won't be quite so vehemently critical as Survived Abortion, I think that a raw food lifestyle is silly nonsense. The thing is that a raw diet will be almost nothing like the diet of a Paleolithic hunter-gatherer due to the industrialization of the agricultural complex and the millennia of breeding to which we have subjected our vegitable and animal domesticates. So even an organically grown vegitable from an heirloom variety from your very own garden will be nothing like the ancestor of that vegitable that a Neanderthal may have eaten, because the cultivar you are eating today has millennia of interbreeding, crossbreeding, backcrossing, and unnatural (that is to say directed by man as opposed to subjected to the constraints of natural selection without human interference) selection in its past, whereas the ancestor vegitable the Neanderthal ate did not.

Likewise even products gathered from a forest or field will not be comparable to their ancestors that would have been found in those same habitats. This is because what may look like wild land – perhaps a forest in the case of mushrooms – is no such thing! That may sound counterintuitive, so let me explain. When Western explorers came upon North America, it appeared to be a totally wild place untouched by the bands of indigenous hunter-gatherers that lived in the understory. But this was simply a mistaken observation made through Western eyes that were ignorant of the complex programs of modification that Native Americans practiced on the forests. In reality, the forests had been shaped by millenia of selection by mankind, so that they were in a sense more of a garden than a forest. The natives used fire to clear out the underbrush, they killed off any members of the few species of plants for which they didn't have a medicinal or culinary use. They encouraged the growth of plants that they could use, and tended them as they grew. They utilized forestry practices so as to keep the healthy, vigorous trees as shade-cover and as a canopy to modulate temperature swings, while selecting diseased trees to be cut down for firewood or for making tools, preventing the garden-forest trees from killing beneficial shrubs and other smaller plants by casting them into deep shade while simultaneously dampening the spread of disease amongst those trees.

Some of the tribes practiced outright agriculture in this forest-garden, some did not. But even those tribes that did not intentionally practice agriculture still practiced an inadvertent form by killing off weak individuals of useful species of plants, which meant unintentionally selecting only the healthiest beneficial plants and allowing them to breed, in time improving the cultivar. And this is to say nothing of the cultivation of the fauna of these forest-gardens, not only the flora. So when the Europeans came, some of those forest-gardens were cut down, and some were left to begin the slow process of reverting to truly natural forest. But that process takes time, and there has not been nearly enough time since then to have allowed such a change, plus intermittent logging and mistaken forestry practices such as preventing the forests from periodically burning in a healthy way, ensuring massive forest fires out of control some time later, the shit we are now reaping.

So even 'wild' products are not really wild, for they were selected over millennia for favorable qualities by the natives, and the environment the 'wild' product grow in was likewise modified. Furthermore, while it is certainly true that all of these 'wild' products have been altered, humans have changed as well.

There is undisputed evidence for mastery of fire by hominins (with an N) at least half a million years ago. Furthermore, there is also widespread evidence that hominins had mastered fire as far back as 750,000 years ago, it's simply that this evidence is less numerous than the evidence produced half a million years ago. And the evidence shows that while mastery of fire was universal probably by 6 or 7 hundred thousand years ago, the initial experiments stretch back as far as 1.7 million years.

This means that humans mastered fire long before we were indubitably 'human'. I personally have the opinion that Homo species other than sapiens were actually much smarter than we may give them credit for, with rudimentary language as far back as Homo erectus. This was the species which mastered fire, it so happens. Anyway my point is that we (hominins) have been eating cooked food for longer than our species has existed, and considering the large changes between a Homo erectus and one of us Homo sapiens, it would be foolish to assume that the rest of our bodies exhibit such a marked shift and our brains and mental capabilities experienced such a massive shift yet our stomachs would have somehow stayed the same relative to our pre-cooking ancestor species. Evolution works on long time scales, but even so a million years is a hell of a long time, long enough to contain the rise and fall of several distinct hominins, such as Homo erectus, heidelbergensis, neanderthalensis, floresiensis, the Denisovans, and ourselves.

Considering that all these species cooked, and that a million years plus of cooking separates us from the last direct ancestor that lacked fire, why would a raw diet be appropriate for a member of Homo sapiens? It just doesn't make sense; culturally and evolutionarily we are a cooking species. Even our teeth show signs of evolution towards a cooked diet, shrinking our canines as we needed less tooth to eat cooked meat, and our incisors and molars because we needed less shearing force and less crushing force to eat cooked plant matter.

I do personally think a raw diet is silly, but I am not so hostile to it as SA, so would you care to explain what led you to the conclusion that a raw diet was best for you? I say this as a vegetarian myself, so I get the personal choices that can lead to what some may consider an unconventional diet, and get that not everybody has the same 'ideal diet', explaining why I ask why a raw diet is best for *you*. That said, I think vegetarianism is not nearly so radical a departure from our ordinary diet evolutionarily speaking as veganism, to say nothing of raw food veganism. What motivates you, if you are willing to explain?

I'm not arguing health here, I'm no expert, but this works for me and many other raw foodists, thus lies the ground for my questioning, for I am one of the lesserly common detox health people who value psychedelics :-)

Any understanding of the potential extractability of harmala, harmaline, and dmt at 70– 100°F...(potentially with aid of fruit acidity, vinegar etc)? This is a more pertinent question friend lol I'm not hear to ramble afoot my diet, but discuss psychedelics of course!

On topic, I think that cooking a huasca brew is probably not going to conflict with your diet (in my opinion). You're drinking it for its psychoactive properties, and while DMT is resistant to heat to some extent any time you boil a compound or otherwise expose it to high temperatures some will degrade. And since you're not drinking it for nutritional purposes, 'enzyme count' or vitamin/mineral value isn't such a major factor. Finally, boiling it will likely denature some enzymes or destroy some compounds that would actually make you sick or nauseous, instead of providing any value to the body, so to prevent physical symptoms from being stronger I would suggest simply boiling it.

Acidity should help to ensure that all of the alkaloids are in the form of a salt. In this context a salt is a molecule of alkaloid, such as DMT, which is slightly basic as an intrinsic property of the amine, ionically bonding to an acid. Salts dissociate in water, and the acid then contributes to the overall pH of the solution, rather than having the acid and the basic molecule of alkaloid still bonded together ionically swimming in solution. But just as we say that salts are soluble in water where freebases are not, what we are really talking about is that the pH of a solution affects the amount of a basic alkaloid that is protonated relative to how much is not protonated.

When an acid and base meet (according to the Brønsted–Lowry theory of acids and bases), in the simplest terms the acid will protonate the base, forming the conjugate base of the acid and the conjugate acid of the base, speaking for that specific pair of molecules. Whether or not a basic molecule like DMT is protonated will affect its solubility. We refer to a chemical's pKa as the pH at which half the compound will be protonated and half unprotonated. So this will determine the pH necessary for an acid base extraction, or for ensuring that as much of the alkaloid is soluble (or not) in a polar solvent like water. When DMT is protonated it is soluble in water, when it is not it is soluble in nonpolar solvents like naphtha.

It turns out that when the pH of a solution matches the pKa of a compound, half is protonated and half is not as I mentioned. Now, knowing that pH is a logarithmic scale, and running the math, a good rule is that almost all (let's call it 99%) of a compound will be protonated at pH = pKa - 2, and unprotonated at pH = pKa + 2, where pKa is the pKa of that chemical. The pKa of DMT is 8.68.

So in practical terms, this means that if we want the DMT to be unprotonated and soluble in nonpolar solvents, as when using naphtha to extract it from Mimosa hostilis rootbark powder, we want the pH to be pKa + 2, which is 8.68 + 2, which is 10.68, so round up to 11. This for extracting DMT from MHRB powder using naphtha, we put in enough sodium hydroxide (lye) that the pH rises to 11. Now >99% of the DMT will be the unprotonated freebase and soluble in nonpolar solvent, so that we do not leave any behind.

I think you can see where this is going. For it to be almost entirely (>99%) protonated and thus soluble in water for drinking the liquid steeped in the jammer of a tea, we want the pH to be pKa - 2, which is 8.68 - 2, which is 6.68, which we round down to 6. Thus to get pretty much all of the DMT into a tea the ideal pH is 6. Water has a pH of 7, so a little bit of vinegar or like juice should drop the pH sufficiently to ensure that as near to all of the DMT is water-soluble and thus ends up in the tea.

It's worth noting however that water is pH 7 as I mentioned when pure. So even if you didn't add any acid you'd be close to the pH of 6.68 to get a lot of alkaloid. But why not ensure you get that much more? Especially if you're not boiling it, which would break down the plant matter some to expose the DMT within to the water? I say acidify with lime juice or vinegar to be sure since its not going to be cooked.

They drank aya before they had pots to boil the tea in..years ago they would pound the vine in water and drink this..after learning how to fire pots that could boil water they developed modern techniques for making aya. So its not like his idea is a new idea of making aya just a less used one...op there is a reason that the modern tech is preferred now...lol

Well actually pottery was developed no later than 20,000 BC. The oldest pot sherds date from this time period, long before the development of agriculture, and well before the Clovis culture spread into the Americas. There is some evidence which is spotty and heavily contested that indicates the presence of humans in the Americas before the Clovis culture, but this is not conclusive, and in either case it still took millennia until people spread fully into South America. So they most assuredly had pots, and obviously they had fire. And most tellingly they lacked transparent glass-like materials which would be necessary for solar-heating huasca brews.

Thus I would conclude that pre-Columbian cultures in South America that used DMT orally would have boiled the brews in pots instead of trying to heat it with energy from the sun.
 
While I know it's not thoghtsUnThought's concern, realistically I think the reason the overwhelming majority of people might be interested in this method is to hide the fact that they're preparing an illicit psychedelic concoction under the noses of those who may not approve of their enjoying themselves. I know that was my motive during my brief stint in the dorms sharing a communal kitchen with squares while in my Freshman year of college, heh. I bashed up some harmala seeds to encapsulate in the concrete back stairwell between some newspaper early one morning and did the bark soak in an empty water jug under my bed.

The problem I ran into this way was I couldn't trip when I wanted to, had no way to freeze it, and ended up waiting five days with the M. Hostilis root bark soaking. That's way too long. When I opened it up it reeked terribly. I mean, it would've filled up the whole dorm if I left the cap off for a few minutes. Whatever organisms were still in the bark must've been busy crapping in the water that whole time. I had to dump it (never got my chance to stick it to the tyrannical dorm RA by secretly vomiting up exotic jungle brew into that Tupperware container under my bed and tripping balls alone in my 10X10 room -- a sad day for contrarian little shit freedom fighters everywhere).

The plan involved compensating for the reduced effectiveness of the cold extraction by using powdered bark and a lot of time. I'm almost certain this is still viable since powdered root bark is so fine I can't imagine there's much impediment to the water permeating the particulates and getting the alkaloids out. I think it'd work fine in just a day or two, or even in just a few hours, especially with the addition of a little acid and shaking the container every once in a while. Hell, with powdered root bark I only boil it for 10 minutes and it still seems to work just as well as when I've boiled it for an hour.
 
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Just because they have so far only found pottery in china that dates from 20,000 years ago that doesn't by definition prove that was the earliest it was used, it just proves that is what they have found so far, if someone was to discover 40,000 year old pottery next week then that would be the new date set, scientists change their minds as often as they change their grant applications.
 
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