Another guy, tiredness...

[clarkey1984]

Another guy did a small amount of pure mdma crystals last night, about 100mg to start plus a coupla key bumps so about 140 in total id say, he had had one beer before hand, he bombed the 100, came up and felt lovely, yet barely an hour later it had come to an end, so he did the 2 key bumps, did pretty much nothing, he'd made a promise to himself not to get drunk like previous mdma times, plus not to overdo it on md, so he drank 4 cans of red bull back to back, and smoked a few cigarettes, which did nothing, he is in the middle of a huge rave with about 500 attendees and at 2am all he wants to do is sleep, legs are heavy, can barely keep his eyes open, or keep himself upright, he has had it, completely exhausted.

Is this normal with mdma, as although he has experienced the floaty spacey sleepy feeling before, it has usually passed into the euphoric state that everyone wants to get to, yet this time it never happened for him, so by hlaf 2 he was tucked up in a premier inn a few miles away, he's starting to think that he just cant hack the raves anymore, although he has been a bit fiendish in the past, such as 2x 250mg bombs back to back, intense fuckedness, plus a few 200mg plus lots of booze combos, so maybe he has caused some sort of tolerance or something, but he isnt sure.

Any ideas peoples?

 

[roastlamb123]

Another guy did a small amount of pure mdma crystals last night, about 100mg to start plus a coupla key bumps so about 140 in total id say, he had had one beer before hand, he bombed the 100, came up and felt lovely, yet barely an hour later it had come to an end, so he did the 2 key bumps, did pretty much nothing, he'd made a promise to himself not to get drunk like previous mdma times, plus not to overdo it on md, so he drank 4 cans of red bull back to back, and smoked a few cigarettes, which did nothing, he is in the middle of a huge rave with about 500 attendees and at 2am all he wants to do is sleep, legs are heavy, can barely keep his eyes open, or keep himself upright, he has had it, completely exhausted.

Is this normal with mdma, as although he has experienced the floaty spacey sleepy feeling before, it has usually passed into the euphoric state that everyone wants to get to, yet this time it never happened for him, so by hlaf 2 he was tucked up in a premier inn a few miles away, he's starting to think that he just cant hack the raves anymore, although he has been a bit fiendish in the past, such as 2x 250mg bombs back to back, intense fuckedness, plus a few 200mg plus lots of booze combos, so maybe he has caused some sort of tolerance or something, but he isnt sure.

Any ideas peoples?

Reading people used the words 'pure mdma' can get tiresome. Did you use a testing kit? Don't take offence but no one can know what was in it if its not tested. Also you don't have to speak in 3rd person here. A lot of people do get the heavy leg feeling you describe on a LARGE dose, also known as floored. This has happened to me but not to the extent that I am struggling to keep my eyes open. What you describe does not sound familiar on a 140mg dose unless you weight nothing and have zero tolerance.

 

[JWills20]

Reading people used the words 'pure mdma' can get tiresome. Did you use a testing kit? Don't take offence but no one can know what was in it if its not tested. Also you don't have to speak in 3rd person here. A lot of people do get the heavy leg feeling you describe on a LARGE dose, also known as floored. This has happened to me but not to the extent that I am struggling to keep my eyes open. What you describe does not sound familiar on a 140mg dose unless you weight nothing and have zero tolerance.

Think you miss his point, hes not feeling heavy from MDMA 'flooring' him, instead the feelings have gone and now he's just sober & tired.

@OP - Stop taking MDMA so frequently! The euphoria, happiness, empathy etc is all caused through the massive release of serotonin that MDMA stimulates. Unfortunately, the serotonergic system is not effective in replenishing stores quickly, it's a delicate, slow-working system. Therefore, if you roll frequently, the experiences will diminish as the serotonin simply isn't there.

Nice phrase I read from Darksidesam - 'The brain is the dam, the pill is the dam-buster.'

For the serotonin system to fully recover - 3 months.
Adequate recovery to safely roll again - 1 month.

Not to mention physiological tolerance, this may also be causing your diminished experiences. Keep your use moderated to avoid losing the magic and potential harm to the brain.

We may be 'hardcore' ravers and taking MDMA and raving is what we do, but we must stay safe and responsible in how we do it.

 

[JWills20]

JWills20 I'm sorry, but some of that is wrong.

First of all serotonin is only a part of the MDMA experience. The following is my understanding of it. Dopamine, oxytocin, norepinephrine and the fact that one stereoisomer of MDMA is psychedelic are just as important. Without dopamine, the roll is more anxious and less euphoric [1], the dopamine is what makes you feel content and all fuzzy and warm [2]. And I imagine without the oxytocin you wouldn't get the empathy [3]. The serotonin is responsible for the soft, cottony body-high, and is what floors you at higher doses I think (same feeling reported by users of 5-HTP, which is converted into serotonin in the brain). Serotonin also has effects on mood, but I don't know what they are. I guess 5-htp provides a mood lift, or rather stabilizes the mood. Don't know. Without the psychedelic part of MDMA it feels much more like just a stimulant. [4]

The 3 month period you mention is the suspected time for TPH (Tryptophan hydroxylase) to replenish, which is an enzyme needed for serotonin production. Again, without knowing too much, this could be the reason why some (ab)users will suddenly come down with a host of problems for several months. To roll safely with respect to serotonin levels in the brain the 3 month wait is the estimated necessary period! Most people can get away with 1 month waits, but I know I for one can't.

I also read that MDMA caused some of the serotonin receptors to permanently transform their structure in a way that serotonin will no longer fit in it.

[1] http://www.europeanneuropsychopharmacology.com/article/S0924-977X(00)00086-9/abstract
[2] Cocaine
[3] http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn11530
[4] http://countyourculture.com/2011/05/23/mirrored-magic-mdma/

To answer your question: Sounds like you just came down and the 40mg was not enough to bring you back up. 100mg seems like a small amount if you've been up to 2x250mg. Slowly up the dose if you decide on taking more Wouldn't recommend going above 200mg.

From my understanding, it is the massive release of serotonin that is the most important. Oxytocin and Prolactin can also come about as a result of the significantly higher concentration of serotonin in the synapse. Amazing mood - bonding with other people - Oxytocin and Prolactin response. Basically the elevated serotonin catalyses the speed in which we bond and fall in love with people. However i'm not denying that MDMA could act directly on Prolactin/Oxytocin, source 4 suggests the S isomer to bind with prolactin receptors. The problem with MDMA-induced oxytocin/prolactin is stated in your own source 'What we know at the moment could be written on the back of a postage stamp.' [3] The more I think about it, the more I think its responsible for the 'magic' of MDMA.

Source 1 quite simply states that 'Results are consistent with a partial dopaminergic mediation of the euphoriant effects of MDMA.' The dopamine released mediates or enhances the euphoria that is already being experienced from elevated serotonin. Therefore, dopamine is important for MDMA's effects, however it's not the primary source, instead a mediator. Furthermore, I read a post a post from FBC suggesting that the elevated dopamine comes about due to elevated serotonin. This may not be true, but when it comes to science and facts, I trust FBC the most on this site. If MDMA worked directly on dopamine surely it would be more addictive?

Basically my understanding was that elevated serotonin stimulates a prolactin/oxytocin response in combination with MDMA releasing some. Also dopamine only partially mediates the euphoria created through serotonin. It's all a complex system that creates the unique experience which I believe is primarily down to serotonin so to say 'Dopamine, oxytocin, norepinephrine and the fact that one stereoisomer of MDMA is psychedelic are just as important' is wrong in my opinion.

From a HR point of view, serotonin is a far more delicate, slow & complex system which takes far longer to recover and repair to that of the dopamine system which is said to be more robust. This is why moderation is so important. I also read that 3 months replenishes Tryptothan Hydropoxylase, what I don't get is how we recover serotonin during this time if TPH is needed for serotonin production. That would suggest that we wouldn't begin to recover serotonin until 3 months later. Surely you'd feel different/down for 3 months after MDMA. Unless it slowly recovers and begins to slowly produce serotonin as its recovering? Even then you'd expect subjective differences for weeks. Or can we produce serotonin through a different process?

Sorry if i'm barking up the wrong tree on any of this.

 

[clarkey1984]

@roastlamb, yes, always tested, not that i really need too, as the person i get it from is still working from the same batch from a few weeks ago which was tested by me when i first bought some, but i do get it tested as a matter of course, plus, this is england, over here everything ive ever come into contact with crystal wise has always tested up as bang on, it hardly ever tends to be bunk, altho pills is another story, my motto is pressed = poop lol

@Jwills, and yeah, i wasnt floored, i felt the prickly feeling in my neck and had the beginnings of a come up, but from start to finish it was all over within an hour, 2 weeks in a row has always been against my rules, but at such a huge event that id forgotten about, (no idea how i managed to forget about ravers reunited, but there you go lol) i didnt want to go about it straight as i knew i wouldnt last the whole event, but hey ho, even with chemical help i didnt last out anyway.

A rest is deffo in order tho, ill still go out, just have a few beers instead, like warning this saturday in cambridge for instance, a sick DnB event that i have really started to enjoy attending over the last few months, and considering i used to HATE dnb, this is quite surprising.

My next roll will be hyperbolics 20th birthday rave in september i think, a nice months rest