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Ketamine to curb amphetamine tollerance

Kenbabbs23

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Jul 20, 2012
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Will using a 100 mg of ketamine in the evening help with therapuetic amohetimine tolerance the following day or do you only benefit from the Ndmi? inhibition if the amphetimine is taken while feeling affects of the Ketamine?
Ive noticed great results curbing the depression that comes with amphetimine tollerance with 100mg ketamine insufation but haven't fealt like my dexedrine is "working" anymore.
 
Will using a 100 mg of ketamine in the evening help with therapuetic amohetimine tolerance the following day or do you only benefit from the Ndmi? inhibition if the amphetimine is taken while feeling affects of the Ketamine?
Ive noticed great results curbing the depression that comes with amphetimine tollerance with 100mg ketamine insufation but haven't fealt like my dexedrine is "working" anymore.

Why Ketamine?
 
Ketamine is too short-acting of a NMDA antagonist to provide appreciable benfits for tolerance reduction.

In addition it has a shitload of other f/x including dopamine reuptake inhibition. It's like using cocaine to stop the crash of amphetamine... bit silly really.
 
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Thanks, I'm fully aware of the spiritual travels i was just curious if it would help with tollerance. It has lasting antidepresant effects for me as well
 
After a second reading I noticed you mentioned Cialis. Can you expand on that a bit. I love feeling like Im 19 again but intriuged as to the neuro affects
 
After a second reading I noticed you mentioned Cialis. Can you expand on that a bit. I love feeling like Im 19 again but intriuged as to the neuro affects

The phosphodiesterase type-5 inhibitor, tadalafil, improves depressive symptoms, ameliorates memory impairment, as well as suppresses apoptosis and enhances cell proliferation in the hippocampus of maternal-separated rat pups.
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21056623
Early adverse experiences resulting from maternal separation may lead to neuronal cell death and eventually cause memory impairment. Maternal separation has been used to create a valid animal model of early life stress and a depression-like syndrome. The phosphodiesterase (PDE)-5 inhibitor, tadalafil (Cialis), is a widely prescribed agent for the treatment of erectile dysfunction. In this study, we investigated the effects of tadalafil on apoptosis and cell proliferation in the hippocampal dentate gyrus of rat pups following maternal separation. Specifically, the immobility time in the forced swim test was increased in the maternal-separated rat pups, and tadalafil treatment decreased the immobility time. The rat pups in the maternal separation group had deceased memory function compared to the rat pups in the maternal care group, and tadalafil treatment increased memory function of the rat pups in the maternal separation group. Apoptotic cell death in the hippocampal dentate gyrus was significantly increased in the maternal-separated rat pups, and tadalafil treatment suppressed maternal separation-induced apoptosis. In contrast, cell proliferation in the dentate gyrus was significantly decreased in the maternal-separated rat pups, and taldalafil treatment increased cell proliferation. The present results suggest that tadalafil improves depressive symptoms and alleviates memory impairment by suppressing apoptotic neuronal cell death and enhancing cell proliferation in maternal-separated rat pups.

Chronic treatment with the phosphodiesterase type 5 inhibitors sildenafil and tadalafil display anxiolytic effects in Flinders Sensitive Line rats.
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22359075
There are conflicting results from behavioural studies regarding whether the activation or inhibition of the cGMP-nitric oxide (NO) pathway induces anxiolytic-like behaviour. Sildenafil, an inhibitor of cGMP-selective phosphodiesterase-5, increases anxiety acutely, but previous evidence suggests that its chronic administration may be anxiolytic, and could involve a cholinergic interaction. We used the Flinders Sensitive Line (FSL) rat, a genetic model of depression that presents with increased anxiety- and depression-like behaviour, to investigate the action of chronic treatment with the PDE5 inhibitors sildenafil or tadalafil, with/without atropine on social interaction behaviour, a correlate for anxiety. Fluoxetine was used as positive control, with validation performed using Flinders Resistant Line (FRL) rats. In order to relate behavioural changes to brain penetration, we determined the concentration of sildenafil in cortex and hippocampus of rats following the schedule above using LC-MS/MS. FSL rats displayed significantly reduced social interactive behaviour than FRL rats, while sildenafil, tadalafil, and fluoxetine significantly reversed these deficits. Atropine did not exert effects on social interactive behaviour, nor did it modulate the effects of sildenafil or tadalafil. Sildenafil was present in cortex and hippocampus regions in lower nanomolar concentrations after chronic treatment, in agreement with the binding to PDE5 required for pharmacological effects. This study emphasizes the complicated regulation of anxiety by the cGMP-NO system, and provides supporting evidence for an anxiolytic action after the chronic activation of this pathway. As far as we know this is also the first report to formally demonstrate that sildenafil effectively crosses the blood-brain barrier to elicit central effects.

Tadalafil crosses the blood-brain barrier and reverses cognitive dysfunction in a mouse model of AD.
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22776546
Previous studies have demonstrated that cognitive function can be restored in mouse models of Alzheimer's disease (AD) following administration of sildenafil, a specific PDE5 inhibitor (Puzzo et al., 2009; Cuadrado-Tejedor et al.). Another very potent PDE5 inhibitor with a longer half-life and safe in chronic treatments, tadalafil, may represent a better alternative candidate for AD therapy. However, tadalafil was proven unable to achieve similar benefits than those of sildenafil in AD animal models (Puzzo et al., 2009). The lack of efficacy was attributed to inability to cross the blood-brain barrier (BBB). In this paper we first measured the blood and brain levels of tadalafil to prove that the compound crosses BBB and that chronic treatment leads to accumulation in the brain of the J20 transgenic mouse model of AD. We demonstrated the presence of PDE5 mRNA in the brain of the mice and also in the human brain. After a 10 week treatment with either of these PDE5 inhibitors, the performance of the J20 mice in the Morris water maze test improved when compared with the transgenic mice that received vehicle. Biochemical analysis revealed that neither sildenafil nor tadalafil altered the amyloid burden, although both compounds reduced Tau phosphorylation in the mouse hippocampus. This study provides evidence of the potential benefits of a chronic tadalafil treatment in AD therapy. This article is part of a Special Issue entitled 'Cognitive Enhancers'.

Tadalafil will improve neuroglycopia/hypoglycemia via NO.
http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/threads/632242-Acute-Hypoglycemia-Presenting-as-Methamphetamine-psychosis
 
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NAC, Magnesium, Carnosine, Carnitine, Memantine, Tadalafil are better options. Or you can increase the effect, mucuna prurriens, nicotine, caffeine, herbal maoi and liothyronine.. be ready for some important nerotoxic events. Ketamine is just.. i mean.. ketamine is for spiritual travels.. not tolerance reduction.

I'm not sure why everyone has these very strange opinions about "this drug is only meant for this one, single purpose and it's stupid or wrong to use it for any other purpose." It's absurd to suggest that a drug has a "purpose," let alone a single one and only. This is a very narrow view of drugs and is really presumptuous to suggest that you know the only purpose, that any other is wrong or bad, and that a person who would do it is silly or stupid. Honestly, that's a really naive approach to drugs. I hear the same thing ALLLL the time about amphetamine/adderall and buprenorphine/suboxone: "I hate when people try to take suboxone (or amphetamine) to get high, that's not what it's meant for. It's whole purpose is to get you off drugs (to help you function normal for amphetamine), that's what it was made for. It doesn't make any sense to try to get a high off it, which isn't even possible." No. Drugs are made for many purposes or just out of curiosity, and they are very rarely designed with a highly specific purpose, though that does occur, and even when they are, they usually have different effects than expected or wanted. Buprenorphine is a drug with many effects which are different in different people and it can be used for a variety of reasons, none of which is it's "purpose," etc. Sorry for going off-topic a little, but it's relevant and I think important.

Ketamine is too short-acting of a NMDA antagonist to provide appreciable benfits for tolerance reduction.

In addition it has a shitload of other f/x including dopamine reuptake inhibition. It's like using cocaine to stop the crash of amphetamine... bit silly really.

You're right that it is rather short acting and that it has a lot of other effects other than NMDA antagonism, including some that would be rather contraindicated with amphetamine, like DAT inhibition. But that's absurd to suggest it's similar to cocaine in its DAT blocking capacity or in the contribution of that mechanism to its effect at any reasonable dose, or that it's as problematic, or anything else. Anyway, it doesn't seem like he's talking about alleviating "crash" symptoms, but just decreasing tolerance. But I strongly disagree, as does the literature, that it is too short acting to have appreciable benefits for tolerance reduction. Now, when I say the literature agrees with me, I mean at least for opioid tolerance, the efficacy of ketamine for which has been amply demonstrated (I wrote a grant on it). I'm only reasonably familiar with the amphetamine tolerance story, but from all the other NMDA antagonists shown to be efficacious (or at least anecdotally), I would imagine it would be just fine. But of course the lifespan of the drug matters and since it's so short, it's not quite as easy to achieve the effect you want; all you have to do is take it more often or in a different way. Now I'm not arguing that ketamine is the single best drug to use for this goal, but if it's what you have access to and you react well to it and it has other benefits, while being efficacious, I say go for it!

To increase the likelihood of it working, I would spread the dose out throughout the day, possibly even in a continuous fashion (from my reading that seems most likely to work). It seems to me that 100 mg is more than one needs to take all at once; 30 mg is probably a better dose. With that dose, you could insufflate 30 mg every 1 1/2 or 2 hours, then the last 10 an hour later or something. That would give you about 5-8 hours of consistent, moderate NMDA inhibition, which would likely produce some reduction in tolerance (hell, i notice a decrease in buprenorphine tolerance from a single 30-50 mg bump, nodding off and having trouble peeing later that day and the next). Or, if you can inject subcutaneously or intramuscularly, that would be even better and you could reduce the dose to 20 mg each time every 1.5 hours, achieving ~9 hours of inhibition. Of course, like I said, the issue here is feasibility and the annoyance of doing this. Another option, which is a pretty good one, but with some significant drawbacks, is to ingest (swallow) the ketamine. This has fairly low bioavailability, so it's definitely wasteful compared to the other methods, but if you have a consistent source of quality, affordable ketamine, then it could be a very good option since it lasts soooo much longer (~3-4 hours from a single good dose) and would permit a looser dosing schedule.

You should watch out for side effects, especially as relates to high blood pressure or other side effects of stimulants as ketamine is known to increase blood pressure and enhance the increased blood pressure caused by amphetamines. It's also a mild mu-opioid agonist and overall is known to be fairly addictive, so be careful of that. But it is reasonable and feasible to do.

The best studies I've read used a 24-48 hour long constant slow IV drip of ketamine at a dose of 0.1-1 mg/kg/hour. What's common is to infuse IV about 80-100 mg over the course of a whole day. The amazing thing is the reduced tolerance lasts for weeks to months! And the procedure can be repeated to decrease tolerance further. I'll give a few citations in a little bit, but in one paper, a woman on a very high dose of daily methadone for chronic pain was given 100 mg a day for two days and reduced her dose by 25% (from 80 mg, 3 times a day to 60 mg 3 times a day) with equivalent analgesia for the whole next month. She came back after the month and went through the same procedure, and reduced her dose by 33%, down to 40 mg 3 times a day, for another month with equivalent analgesia. They did it again and got her down to 40 mg twice a day. Amazing. Procedures like these, sometimes IM or SC, from ~80 mg/day to ~500 mg/day, are effective in about 40-60% of patients with chronic pain refractory to high doses of opioids, decreasing the necessary opioid dose or making the same dose effective when it previously wasn't.
 
Antagonism of NMDA receptors upregulates dopamine. Anectodatlly, I have heard that people have used DXM on weekends to reset amphetamine tolererance for the next week. The long duration of DXM would suffice to provide sufficient antagonism of NMDA without redosing. However, if like many, you find the secondary effects of DXM undesirable, then take jaguraguguru's advice and simply redose ketamine to maintain effective concentrations throughout the day. A word of warning: make sure you don't overuse ketamine to disrupt amphetamine tolerance. Tolerance to ketamine rises quickly and takes a long time to dissapate.
 
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