Fire&Water
Bluelighter
Why are you quoting "Swimmingdancer" ?
Edit: okay you edited. no prob'
Edit: okay you edited. no prob'
-
OD Moderators: Keif’ Richards | Tryptamino
Opioids methadone question
- Thread starter KidNapster
- Start date
I haven't tried methadone or bupe yet, but I am getting to the point of trying to clean up my act for the first time. Currently through my PM doc and buying on the side I vary around 150-300mgs of hydrocodone or oxycodone daily (orally). I know this isn't nearly as intense as heroin or IV'ing stronger opiates but would this still qualify someone for a methadone program? I know my PM doc would prescribe me subs but I have no experience with the other programs. I'm just looking for the best and least affecting of my day to day activities way to get through this. I can't afford to miss work for more than a day or two nor be dysfunctional at work/home. Any suggestions?
Znegative
Bluelight Crew
^Will it qualify you for a methadone program? Well, if your asking if a methadone program will take you, then the answer is yes, I'm sure they would. However I would consider a low dosage of buprenorphine for maintenance first. I'm not minimizing your habit, but I feel that getting on methadone might be a mistake. Most clinic's want to raise your dose to a blocking dosage (60 mg or above), which would be pretty ludicrous in your case. You'd end up with a worse habit than you started off with. The only difference being that it would be slightly less stygmatized. If you could insist to stay on a dose of 20 mg or so then yes, I don't think methadone would be any worse than getting on suboxone, but there is going to be that urge to raise your dose so that you can get that buzz back (something which really cant be done with suboxone. In fact, even with methadone, after a certain point, raising the dose has pretty much negligable effect.), which I would be concerned about, as it's easy to rationalize yourself into thinking that doing so is the "right" thing to do for your recovery, when really it's not at all.
Also, you have to think about how being on a methadone program will effect your life in the long run. You have to wake up every morning and head to the clinic, and everytime you travel you have to notify your clinic in advance so they can set you up to be guest dosed at another clinic (or if you're lucky they'll give you a bunch of take homes). Of course over time, with clean urines, you get more privelages (such as extra take home bottles), but it takes quite a while to get to the point where you can get a week's worth of methadone. With suboxone you just have to see your doctor once a month and you get a prescription, making traveling easier, and you get the benifit in general of not having to plan your life around the structure of your clinic hours.
I'm not trying to say one is better than the other, I'm currently on methadone, but I've had a good ammount of experience with both. Methadone is just a much bigger commitment, and I feel like buprenorphine should be tried first.
Also, you have to think about how being on a methadone program will effect your life in the long run. You have to wake up every morning and head to the clinic, and everytime you travel you have to notify your clinic in advance so they can set you up to be guest dosed at another clinic (or if you're lucky they'll give you a bunch of take homes). Of course over time, with clean urines, you get more privelages (such as extra take home bottles), but it takes quite a while to get to the point where you can get a week's worth of methadone. With suboxone you just have to see your doctor once a month and you get a prescription, making traveling easier, and you get the benifit in general of not having to plan your life around the structure of your clinic hours.
I'm not trying to say one is better than the other, I'm currently on methadone, but I've had a good ammount of experience with both. Methadone is just a much bigger commitment, and I feel like buprenorphine should be tried first.
projump2001
Bluelighter
work is going to be the bitch of all bitches.. i keep going to the bed to lay down.. the difference between W/Ds and using is very similar except you feel good laying down while on the stuff.. i feel bad and i am sweating pretty badly right now.. not sure if this gets worst each day or if i will start feeling better tomorrow.. so far i can deal with this.. i have a few hundred mg of methadone next to me, and i have no craving to use it.. but if it got to it, i guess i would take .25 or .15mg .. but i just want to be done with this once and for all..
QFT. and my 2.5c: ime, most people taper from subs or 'done WAY too quickly, leading to long periods of feeling like ass. Ive read that methadone w/d can last up to two years, tho that seems pretty extreme, and I suspect that symptoms like depression and what not may have been there all along and are perhaps falsely attributed to the drug w/d.
I've detoxed from methadone. It took me almost 5 months to go from 20mg/day to zero. Subs work better for me; a couple of 8s, a few weeks, and Im good to go. If you dont have a milligram scale, you're probably doing it wrong (too fast).
Both drugs are good for w/d tho because, at least with me, there is no high from them, and no reason to inject either. Breaking a needle fixation can be almost as hard as getting off your d.o.c itself.
Around here, it is a catch-22. Sub docs are VERY $$$$$$, but at least you only have to see him/her once a month. The nearest clinic is almost 30 miles away. Needless to say, if you get a habit around here, you better know how to deal with w/d or have some unofficial channels of obtaining the above meds.
Get your liver checked. I know of no formulation of hydrocodone where 300mg a day would be even remotely safe w/o a CWE. and the difference between hydro and oxycodone is like taking the city bus to town or driving your Ferrari. Your gonna have it a lot worse if you are doing mostly oxy vs hydrocodone. If you can get subs, they are the better way imo, unless you happen to live next door to a methadone clinic. 1 trip to the pharmacy once a month vs 1-2 hrs a day at a clinic... you do the math. and good luck getting clean!
projump2001
Bluelighter
w/ds can last years.. Jesus.. well i was on 2mg for a year, so i hope that took up some slack.. now i am just coming off 2mg.. so i hope that is going to be ok. i did go down from 2mg -.25mg over one week.. perhaps i should have gone down .1 or .05 over the next year.. but i am hopeful that i will feel better in about 10 days.. ill see
Years is an extreme #. 2mg of methadone a day for a year, and no real w/d yet? You are doing well, probably because your dose is so low. Those year+ horror stories usually come from ppl who were on 150mg+/day for years.
and you've detoxed VERY slowly, tho 2mg to 0 over a week can still present some unpleasant effects, they should be very mild.
Wsolstice95
Greenlighter
- Joined
- Jun 23, 2012
- Messages
- 18
[UQUOTE=Swimmingdancer;10701400]This is an extremely common question on here. Whether Suboxone or methadone would be best for someone really depends on the individual and there are a ton of different factors to consider. One important thing though, methadone doesn't magically remove all your cravings either. Your friend probably loves it because he is new to methadone. After a couple months at a stable dose you don't feel effects from the methadone anymore, it just keeps you from going into withdrawals.
Here is a thread with some detailed info to help one choose between methadone and Suboxone: http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/threads/...-what-a-choice!!?highlight=methadone+suboxone
Staying on methadone for years is not something you should take lightly. The longer you stay on it the harder it is to quit, the worse withdrawals and PAWS are, and the longer it takes your brain and body to recover. There are detrimental effects from being on methadone for years, such as mental issues, bone loss, digestive system problems, etc. The problem is that many people do require a fairly long time on maintenance to deal with their mental addiction and make changes in their lives. But please don't think it doesn't make any difference how long you are on it or that it will be easy to taper off when you've been on it for a long time.
Not necessarily. If you go above 30mg methadone a day (which most people do) you can't just switch back to Suboxone, and switching from methadone to Suboxone requires that you go sick for a few days before you can start the Suboxone.[/QUOTE]
What I meant to convey, is the fact that if Methadone does not prove to be the right way to go for you, you can taper down and go back to subs or buprenorphine maintenance, not that you can just jump right off of meth and onto subs of you're on over 30mg, which as you said, most are. The minimum theraputic dose is generally agreed to be over 60mg. Hell, I wasn't 100% stable until over double that. Point is, one who has not been on meth for too long and decides its not for them can taper to 30mg in relative comfort, especially if done slowly, to get back on subs or bupe.
Here is a thread with some detailed info to help one choose between methadone and Suboxone: http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/threads/...-what-a-choice!!?highlight=methadone+suboxone
Staying on methadone for years is not something you should take lightly. The longer you stay on it the harder it is to quit, the worse withdrawals and PAWS are, and the longer it takes your brain and body to recover. There are detrimental effects from being on methadone for years, such as mental issues, bone loss, digestive system problems, etc. The problem is that many people do require a fairly long time on maintenance to deal with their mental addiction and make changes in their lives. But please don't think it doesn't make any difference how long you are on it or that it will be easy to taper off when you've been on it for a long time.
Not necessarily. If you go above 30mg methadone a day (which most people do) you can't just switch back to Suboxone, and switching from methadone to Suboxone requires that you go sick for a few days before you can start the Suboxone.[/QUOTE]
What I meant to convey, is the fact that if Methadone does not prove to be the right way to go for you, you can taper down and go back to subs or buprenorphine maintenance, not that you can just jump right off of meth and onto subs of you're on over 30mg, which as you said, most are. The minimum theraputic dose is generally agreed to be over 60mg. Hell, I wasn't 100% stable until over double that. Point is, one who has not been on meth for too long and decides its not for them can taper to 30mg in relative comfort, especially if done slowly, to get back on subs or bupe.
Znegative
Bluelight Crew
^I've heard the same thing said about the therapeutic dose being a minimum of 60 mg, but I have to disagree with that. I'm on fourty milligrams a day and it holds me fine, just as well as 8 mg of suboxone would, if not better. The reason why people are encouraged to go above sixty milligrams is because it is a blocking dose. However, personally, being on a 'blocking dose' never proved to have any real therapeutic benifit as far as I'm concerned. If I want to use, I'll use, and if I cant take opiates, then I'll use stimulants or benzodiazepines. I guess if you dont have a poly-substance abuse problem, then being on a blocking dose could prove worthwhile, but I see a lot of people start maintenance drugs who were initially only using heroin/pain pills, move on to shooting coke/smoking crack and/or taking benzodiazepines. For me it's better to be at a dose where I could[//b] potentially still get high off of heroin, because I'd rather do that from time to time, then get really addicted to the aforementioned drugs. Perhaps that is rationalizing things, but it has been my pattern.
KidNapster
Bluelighter
im pretty sure most of us have been in this position sweats and all.. i know that feeling where all you wanna do is lay down and do nothing and in pain especially feeling it in your lower back. And for some of us it doesnt end there.. RESPONSIBILITIES come into play such as work and other errands you have to run and do which is the furthest thing youd ever want to do while being dope sick. ugh, i feel sick thinking about this.
projump2001
Bluelighter
tell me about it.. i am not a weed smoker, but i bought some to combat this nightmarish feeling.. now i must admit, its not terrible so long as i don't have to work.. I just hope it starts to get better before it gets worst.. I am starting to think the time if takes to feel normal is going to be the same regardless of dose, however the lower dose will have less intense w/ds.. this is all just a guess.
But i can see this going down hill fast if i don't start feeling better.. from the start of my posts to now, you can probably tell that it has not gotten better for me..
I have a huge crush on this girl, and i don't think it working out between me and her, and normally i would be so upset, but the feeling i have now must be worst because i actually don't care as much as i do when it comes to woman..
But i can see this going down hill fast if i don't start feeling better.. from the start of my posts to now, you can probably tell that it has not gotten better for me..
I have a huge crush on this girl, and i don't think it working out between me and her, and normally i would be so upset, but the feeling i have now must be worst because i actually don't care as much as i do when it comes to woman..
I get a physical once a year, blood work etc. And my last one (march) showed no abnormalities. Not sure if liver issues would show up on the blood work or not. With the hydrocodone its primarily norco (325mg apap) and I also try to limit myself and watch the apap intake however there are some bad days. I do CWE when I know I would be ingesting dangerous apap levels but probably not as much as I should. I think you guys are right in saying bupe would be more practical for my situation, so when I get the balls to finally go for it (hopefully soon) I'll go that route. I worry myself that I'll try to abuse the bupe also but It seems from everything I've read that the abuse potential isn't that high. Also reference the oxycodone, I don't think its THAT extreme of a difference although I mostly deal with percocet and occasionally some roxis. Anyways, thanks for all the input and advice.
Fire&Water
Bluelighter
A good/trusting chronic pain Doctor and patient relationship can get you a 3 times a year office visit...
(4 months of Buprenorphine prescriptions at a time)
(4 months of Buprenorphine prescriptions at a time)
-Guido-
Bluelight Crew
- Joined
- Nov 1, 2004
- Messages
- 34,844
Absolutely. Honestly, from day one on Methadone Maintenance I lost all cravings and never picked up heroin again and here I am going on four years. Since I was a model patient and never pissed dirty after a few months they gave me a take home, and they kept coming. I go once a week, get tested once a month now and see the doctor every 6 months. The stuff might work for you bro. You obviously want to quit, otherwise you wouldn't be asking these questions. I actually wish I got on methadone sooner.
I don't know what your situation is like but look into getting on Medicaid. Depending on your income and some other factors you could be eligible for free transportation to the clinic and back and they will also pay for your Methadone.
projump2001
Bluelighter
well this is day 5 without methadone.. I feel better than i did yesterday and i am actually at work right now. I just hope i feel better and better because this is great.. yesterday i thought for sure it going to get unimaginably worst.. I have been listening to Eckhart Tolle..
Znegative
Bluelight Crew
Yeah, haha, Guido I'm from NY too and I get the two way metro cards in addition to free treatment as well as a variety of different group activity's which are actually surprisingly good (this is with medicaid, but these activity's are available for everyone under the weekly fee for methadone treatment which is cheaper than any heroin habit) There's even a group for young people at my clinic. I swear, it's like Bluelight IRL (with slightly less informed members I admit)! The clinic environment can be either detrimental or benificial to your recovery. If you stick with the right people, you can really gain a sense of community and support-but unlike 12 step programs, you're not judged for being on maintenance therapy. I don't know, I get something out of it.
Tony Williams
Bluelighter
- Joined
- Jan 27, 2009
- Messages
- 416
First off subs will kill part of the craving but not the "hit" craving. You might need more bupe, I needed 24mg >> 16mg but I genuinely want to stop. Methadone - stay away, give bupe more chance.
KidNapster
Bluelighter
i love how i can relate to this since im in NY too :D Todays my first day going to the clinic. They said i need to give a couple of urines first before i can start taking methadone. They also mentioned benzos arent allowed to show up in the drug test since methadone and benzo combos are deadly? i think thats the what they said. Thanks again for everything guys, i really think this is the right path im taking here. Itll be different and itll take time to get used to, but i think this will help turn my life around
KidNapster
Bluelighter
ALSO, i just wanted to mention something else i read here and im not sure if anyone else has recently mentioned it about methadone and suboxone. Ive noticed in my real life experience that it seems like sub has a higher success rate with addicts who have less of a habit/havent been doing for a long time. Methadone seems perfect for people with heavier addictions to heroin. Dont get me wrong i think both can worth either way but from what ive noticed and when i talk to people this theory seems pretty accurate.