I Can Sense Electromagnetic Energy

[rangrz]

^

I think you missed my point... my point was that visible light and infrared/I.R. are a simply a portion of the electromagnetic spectrum, which humans can sense normally for the most part. A small part, but none the less, they are not fundamentally different in their physical nature from any other portion of the EM spectrum. If you blueshift or redshift them enough by moving at a high relativistic velocity, they will appear as gamma or radio spectrum respectively.

Sufficently high powered microwaves can also be heard by people.

You can also even sense some non-E.M. radiation (high energy particles like protons and stuff ) because it will produce Cherenkov glow and/or Bremsstrahlung emissions as it goes thru the vitreous humor of your eye, giving off photons that you can sense.
None of this has anything to do with drugs, and are simply interactions of fundamental physics and physiology.

 

[ReiAyanami]

It's not close-mindedness to put down one person's subjective, untested drug experiences to a well-known and consistent scientific phenomenon

It really is.

Have you ever tried DMT?

How do you describe a state of mind where words and logic don't exist?
When words don't exist
The concept doesn't exist
But you continue to exist
and you experience the state

How is it not closed minded to deny an experience?

Just because it is illogical to science doesn't mean that the DMT state is not real.

Dreams are real. Dreams are illogical.

 

[rangrz]

^

Science does not deny that the DMT induced psychogenic effects is real. It only denies that the ideas you get on DMT are the best description of the physical world available. However, I sincerely doubt that the sciences of medicine or psychology or pharmacology deny that DMT has its various effects and that this subjective experience is, to the person experiencing it, real.

It is just as closed minded and wrong to make such statements about what science is or what scientists do.

 

[ReiAyanami]

It only denies that the ideas you get on DMT are the best description of the physical world available.

Agreed: A combination of logical science and illogical experience would give a better description of the sum of human experience.

It is just as closed minded and wrong to make such statements about what science is or what scientists do.

I am a scientist.

 

[rangrz]

^ then you would agree, we do not deny obviously existing phenomena, including those that happen to be related to psychology. So why claim it?

You'd also agree that if parts of the human experience are illogical then it is wrong to not consider them when constructing a model of the human mind. It is however wrong to use them to construct a model of electrodynamics or protein folding or anything else outside of the human mind.

 

[psood0nym]

Have you ever tried DMT?


How is it not closed minded to deny an experience?

I've smoked, injected, and consumed DMT orally with an MAOI. It's pretty amazing. It didn't give me super powers. I've been tripping on a wide range of psychedelics for 15 years. I've had many "dropped out of my body totally immersing" types of "visions." I still think they were productions of my own mind from within my mind.

And who's denying the OP's experience? We're skeptical of the OP's interpretation of their experience -- for the very plausible reasons already stated -- not calling them a blatant liar. Nothing about the "X-ray vision" interpretation makes an alternate interpretation using established knowledge implausible, so why assume super powers came into existence for a brief period because that's what it seemed like? That's like saying we should entertain the idea that it's not really gravity at work every time we drop something because it could be that gravity was temporarily suspended and it's really an invisible One-horned Flying Purple People Eater carrying our cell phone to the pavement. It's ludicrous because that explanation has no legs -- there's nowhere for the mind to go with it, nothing to expand on. By affirming just any outlandish one-time interpretation of a person's own experience when we have a more plausible explanation we negligently isolate them within that interpretation and deny them explanations that we know could lead them to far broader knowledge. We deny them access to an interpretation they can actually build on and investigate further. We effectively close their minds. It's not open minded to cheer someone on into a dead end, it's negligent and a bit sadistic.

That's how it is not close minded to be skeptical of a person's interpretation of an experience.

I would be extremely happy to be wrong and find out in the future that the OP is on the cover of Time magazine because he had exhaustively proven he is able to see electricity through phones with his eyes closed. That would be astonishing and life affirming to me. Maybe we could study his mind on DPT and discover how anybody can gain super powers. He's welcome to try to prove it ... scientifically. But what is the psychological status of an extraordinary belief that can be tested that one is not willing to attempt to test? Delusion? Crutch? Threat?

By the way, I just had an experience that convinced me you should give me all your money. Are you going to deny my experience or are you close minded? PM me and I'll get you my PayPal account.

 

[ReiAyanami]

^ then you would agree, we do not deny obviously existing phenomena, including those that happen to be related to psychology.

I do agree, yes: we do not deny obviously existing phenomena.
As above:
"How is it not closed minded to deny an experience?"
"Just because it is illogical to science doesn't mean that the DMT state is not real."
"Dreams are real. Dreams are illogical."

They are real, we should not deny them.

I absolutely agree with you on the other points too.

 

[weekday warrior]

The last two days have been the most insane of my life. I took LSD with a friend, a bunch of n2o, then about 8 hours in took mxe and a bit later 100mg of DPT. Sweet dearest mother of our holy Earth.......

With all due respect i would not trust my mind on acid let alone my mind on acid, dpt and mxe. A common experience is for people on acid to 'see sounds' or focus on individual atoms in the human body and other such oddities that they are unable to do while off acid.
Have you ever had a dream that was crazy realistic and even after you woke up you still had to convince yourself that it wasn't real? Imagine if it were the first time you had ever dreamt it would be really hard to shake it.

 

[ReiAyanami]

I still think they were productions of my own mind from within my mind.

They are, obviously.

We're skeptical of the OP's interpretation of their experience

Words take on different meanings whilst under the influence of psychedelics.
There is no 'true' or 'false' on a DMT breakthrough dose, is there?
I don't need to tell you this, surely.

He's welcome to try to prove it ... scientifically.
It's not open minded to cheer someone on into a dead end, it's negligent and a bit sadistic.
deny them the explanation that leads to far broader knowledge.

Exactly, he can't possibly prove it scientifically. Asking him to do so is exactly 'cheering him on into a dead end'; denying the experience because you can't shift your terms of interpretation to fit the known facts. Science uses logic almost exclusively, the experience happens in a semi- or totally-'illogical' state.

What broader knowledge are you offering him?
And how is that met by not being open to view the experience from a less 'scientifically-rigorous' position?


Anyone would think we're on different sides! We all take psychedelics, why deny the experience as what it is on it's own terms? Why ask him to prove it scientifically when you know very well that he can't?! I don't get you at all.

ever had a dream that was crazy realistic and even after you woke up you still had to convince yourself that it wasn't real?

But it was real. You've convinced yourself of a lie.

 

[rangrz]

@pseudo- exactly.
@ Rei. I think what he meant by having to convince yourself that a dream or a trip is "not real" is to remind yourself that it is not factually a valid approximation of the physical systems about which one may think about during a dream or a trip. As such, one should refrain from thinking you can actually see the actual electrons flowing in an actual physical telephone wire, or that your visions of such will ever be offer testable, objective, ACCURATE, predictions about how electricity works.

 

[Trylandair]

I saw a guy on the bus who could zap people with his mind

 

[SpecialK_]

Sounds like you had a good trip. MXE does the whole seeing through your eyelids too for me as does other dissociative like DXM. Just don't let it get to your head too much or that's were the trouble starts. No one is doubting you to be a cunt, just to make you realize that your introspective thoughts and visuals are going to your head a bit much. It sounds similar to the atom/static effect that almost everyone gets while even on low doses of acid, only to the extreme.

 

[webbykevin]

I saw a guy on the bus who could zap people with his mind

That was me !

 

[psood0nym]

Exactly, he can't possibly prove it scientifically. Asking him to do so is exactly 'cheering him on into a dead end'; denying the experience because you can't shift your terms of interpretation to fit the known facts. Science uses logic almost exclusively, the experience happens in a semi- or totally-'illogical' state.

He can test it scientifically. I described how in my very first post. Given hundreds of trails in a variety of triple blinded controlled environments where he either accurately sensed or didn't sense the emission of electromagnetic waves from a hidden device. Shit, blindfolding him and asking "am I holding a phone if front of you now or not" would be a step in the right direction. It could have been done at the time easily. "Prove" isn't quite accurate but experimenters can "fail to reject the null" with an extraordinary degree of statistical significance.

Accurate? True or false? Tested.

Who's talking about testing the ineffable? From the start this has been about the ability to sense electromagnetic waves outside of the visible spectrum (see the title of the thread).

What broader knowledge are you offering him?

I'm not personally offering anything more than I said, but saying it invites him to look into the psychology of perception/sensory substitution to understand how his experience can be explained without resorting to a belief in an ability that nobody has ever demonstrated. It's a broad field and learning about it can expand the mind. That's what's being offered:established knowledge that a person isn't currently aware of that can be tested and coheres nicely within an ever growing scientific worldview. It's a pretty good offer.

Do you get me now?

 

[ReiAyanami]

@pseudo- exactly.
@ Rei. I think what he meant by having to convince yourself that a dream or a trip is "not real" is to remind yourself that it is not factually a valid approximation of the physical systems about which one may think about during a dream or a trip. As such, one should refrain from thinking you can actually see the actual electrons flowing in an actual physical telephone wire, or that your visions of such will ever be offer testable, objective, ACCURATE, predictions about how electricity works.

That's a good point. But also: The fact that dreams, because of their illogical nature, are automatically dismissed as not real is interesting, I think. That probably explains why some people have a hard time accepting the psychedelic state as being 'real' as well, or making allowances for it in their interpretations.
It is wise to take the physical world most seriously, I guess, since one can actually end up dead. But the psychedelic state is no less real, to me at least. It obviously depends on how frequently people trip, of course.

Regarding strange thoughts: People talk about seeing aliens on DMT, and people don't even blink an eye. Other people just close their eyes and go astral traveling out of their bodies! So seeing a few electrons isn't all that bad really! Haha.

He can test it scientifically.
Do you get me now?

No. How would you prove that 'ayahuasca visions' were actually being seen, scientifically? As I said, I'm a scientist myself, so get technical if you like.

 

[cryptix420]

Hey, there's always gonna be skeptics. I can live with that.

 

[weekday warrior]

Regarding strange thoughts: People talk about seeing aliens on DMT, and people don't even blink an eye. Other people just close their eyes and go astral traveling out of their bodies! So seeing a few electrons isn't all that bad really! Haha.

It's not the perceptions that are disturbing its that he believes he has this supernatural power that everyone is trying to dissuade him of

 

[muvolution]

After much deliberation, I have decided you were just tripping.

 

[sekio]

It is wise to take the physical world most seriously, I guess, since one can actually end up dead. But the psychedelic state is no less real, to me at least.

If I close my eyes and visualize a pile of money in front of me, that does not actually influence the presence or absence of any objects on the table in front of me. I cannot spend the money (which doesn't actually exist), I cannot make any accurate measurements (because all of the data is going to come from guesses and interpretation of encoded memories) that anyone else can reproduce, either. I may be imagining a pile of $20s, but ask another person to visualize a pile of money and it may well be $50s, $100s, or gold doubloons in stead. You can't make direct measurements of someone elses' ideas!

How are hallucinations from psychedelic drugs any different? They are follies of the mind that are unverifiable outside of your individual conciousness. When people start taking these follies for granted, it starts to look more and more like a mental disorder.

Dreams are widely understood to be "unreal" because of social convention. Say your lover had a dream where you were being infidelious. Would you want them acting out on that? Would you consider them sane if they knew it was a dream? How about if they didn't know?

What about a dream where your parents were killed by a criminal? Does that actually mean they are dead, and you're "remote viewing"? Or is it just a figment of your imagination caused by runaway electrical activity in the parts of your brain that mediate memory and concious experience? Would you then be justified in avenging your parents' death? What about if that criminal was the Joker from Batman? What if it was you?

Where do you draw the line between the interior "model" of the world and consensus "reality"?

 

[psood0nym]

No. How would you prove that 'ayahuasca visions' were actually being seen, scientifically? As I said, I'm a scientist myself, so get technical if you like.

Be honest, did you read my post? I repeatedly indicated nobody is trying to prove whether an experience happened scientifically. In the post before last I said the same: "We're skeptical of the OP's interpretation of their experience" not the experience itself (with italics and everything). Then you even quoted it, responding to it as if it were about your experiences of DMT breakthroughs when DMT was not even involved in the OP's post. Then I asked: "who's talking about testing the ineffable?" Again, driving the same point.

The OP is sober now and posting about super powers on the internet. This is not about the epistemology of tripping. That's what you made it about. With some enormous effort you've somehow managed to start an argument with yourself in place of what's been said and now you're claiming we're not following the finer points.