Oral DMT: Psychotria viridis vs. Mimosa hostilis

[Foreigner]

I've microdosed with b. caapi, p. viridis and m. hostilis separately over the past few weeks, and all seem to agree with me (no allergic reactions, no weird health problems, etc.)... so I'm ready to upgrade to a more visionary experience by combining them.

I'll preface this by saying my body is sensitive. The standard dose for most psychedelics and pharmaceuticals needs to be halved in my case, and I can get high off of doses that other people feel nothing on. So, with this in mind, I ask...

caapi + viridis? or caapi + mimosa?

I'm aware of the molecular differences. One is n,n-DMT the other is 5-meo-DMT. I've read slews of trip reports on both, so this thread need not take that comparative turn.

I mostly just want to know which might be more ideal for a newcomer to oral DMT. I don't have access to syrian rue or other plants right now, so these options are all I have available.

Feedback is most appeciated. Thank you!

 

[psood0nym]

I've microdosed with b. caapi, p. viridis and m. hostilis separately over the past few weeks, and all seem to agree with me (no allergic reactions, no weird health problems, etc.)... so I'm ready to upgrade to a more visionary experience by combining them.

I'll preface this by saying my body is sensitive. The standard dose for most psychedelics and pharmaceuticals needs to be halved in my case, and I can get high off of doses that other people feel nothing on. So, with this in mind, I ask...

caapi + viridis? or caapi + mimosa?

I'm aware of the molecular differences. One is n,n-DMT the other is 5-meo-DMT. I've read slews of trip reports on both, so this thread need not take that comparative turn.

I mostly just want to know which might be more ideal for a newcomer to oral DMT. I don't have access to syrian rue or other plants right now, so these options are all I have available.

Feedback is most appeciated. Thank you!

Both are only DMT so far as I know. psychotria ref. Mimosa is far more potent by weight, however. I've taken oral synthetic DMT with an MAOI, and it was not nearly as interesting as mimosa or psychotria (and I don't believe it "plant sprits" making me trip). I'm not sure if the volume of matter ingested in ayahuasca vs. synthetic matters, but I get DMT surges with plant matter and synthetic was pretty uniform in the high. So, it's possible other constituents of the plant make a difference. However, I'm not sure what these other constituents are or even if they are, so I can't comment on what may or may not make mimosa or psychotria intrinsically different qualitatively.

 

[Swimmingdancer]

Well most people find the 2 to have slightly different effects, but which would be best from that perspective is down to personal preference. Even though many people believe the DMT is the only active ingredient there are other alkaloids involved, the effects of which are not yet fully understood. Personally I would suggest you go with the chacruna (psychotria). Mimosa is more potent, so if you over or underestimate your dose it will have a greater effect, whereas chacruna can be a bit more forgiving that way. Some people say mimosa gives a darker and heavier experience than chacruna. Mimosa can be easier or less time consuming to brew though.

I would also suggest regardless of which mixture you choose, if you are generally very sensitive start with a low dose. You can always take more later. I find that the dose needed varies wildly from person to person. I can take a small dose and have a friend take literally 10 times my dose and we both get the same effects.

 

[TheAppleCore]

Definitely go with the chacruna (psychotria viridis).

There are a few reasons that mimosa hostilis is not ideal for a newcomer to ayahuasca. Firstly, p. viridis is essentially nontoxic, whereas m. hostilis has toxins that increase the likelihood of overdose, or at least a highly unpleasant experience (I have been there, due to careless brewing, and yes it is *horrible*). Secondly, m. hostilis is known as having a very harsh and unforgiving "spirit", whereas chacruna is generally considered to have more of a gentle and maternal spirit. Thirdly, chacruna has a very long history of traditional use in ayahuasca brews, and has a very good safety track record, whereas we are currently unsure of potential long-term health ramifications of m. hostilis as an aya admixture.

P.S., yes, DMT is the primary active alkaloid in both p. viridis and m. hostilis.

 

[Foreigner]

^ Thank you for this advice, it was very helpful, and I have decided on chacruna.

Question... if some day I decide to use mimosa, would I use it in place of viridis, or can I add it in addition to viridis (but both in reduced proportions)?

 

[TheAppleCore]

^ You're welcome. I'd try them separately first, to get a good feel for their unique characters, personally.

 

[psood0nym]

So what are the toxins in mimosa hostilis? Also, can anyone provide links to the other alkaloids involved that are suspected of being psychoactive (not necessarily psychedelic, but even just having some known pharamacological properties that are speculated to supply qualitative differences between the two plants and synthetic DMT with an MAOI)? I've not heard of either toxicity or other active alkaloids before. I've certainly had a rough time with a 35 gram M. Hostilis + 40 g P. Torch overdose before (2 hours vomiting and dry heaving near constantly, my lungs overflowing with fluid, with my head running under ice cold water while naked shivering in the tub and having repeating visions of blowing my head off with a revolver thinking I was dying of an allergic reaction because of the lung fluid, heh -- good times). I never imagined it was toxicity of the M. Hostilis before, though, because I had a very similar experience after injecting synthetic DMT IM on top of a P. Torch/2C-E/4-AcO-DMT/harmala combo chasing the same ayahuasca/mescaline type spiritual experience I've had in the past (which is intermittently about as good as psychedelia gets IME). And, as stated, my experience with all plant constituents is a lot different than my experience with synthetic DMT and harmala -- so I don't really doubt it about the other alkaloids, just curious.

Also, I thought M. Hostilis was also used for quite a while traditionally. It's called Jurema (and is indeed considered to have a more "male aggressive" "warrior" spirit by the indigenous populations that use it religiously). That one experience of mine with it was a bit like being raped by a savage, heh, but just that one time. Every other time was great. Never had a bad time with P. Viridis, but I've used MH much more.

 

[Foreigner]

^ Jesus... well, I'm glad you came out of that alright.

And... based on your post, it reinforces my choice to not start with m. hostilis as a newcomer. I do know that the dosing with mimosa promises to be a more intense time even with incremental increases, more body load, more ego dissolution. Of course, this is all dose dependent too... but reading so many trip reports has given me the general idea that mimosa is sort of the next level.

You are right that mimosa is also used in ayahuasca, but it's in more isolated traditions. Chacruna (p. viridis) is far more common and widespread in Latin America. That's not to say one is less valuable than the other. My OP is mainly about my choice for a first time DMT high with the plant based varieties. Know what I mean?

 

[any major dude]

Mimosa does seem to be a bit more variable. And I have read a few reports of it being active without an MAOI, dunno how reliable they are though.

 

[Swimmingdancer]

So what are the toxins in mimosa hostilis? Also, can anyone provide links to the other alkaloids involved that are suspected of being psychoactive (not necessarily psychedelic, but even just having some known pharamacological properties that are speculated to supply qualitative differences between the two plants and synthetic DMT with an MAOI)? I've not heard of either toxicity or other active alkaloids before.

There are all sorts of alkaloids and various other compounds in the plants. One alkaloid that I know has been isolated in mimosa hostilis is yuremamine. There is not much yet known about yuremamine, it represents an entirely new family of indole derivatives (tryptophan, the precursor of serotonin is an indole as well). Yuremamine also contains DMT within its molecular structure. It has been suggested that perhaps one of yuremamine's properties might be that it acts as an MAOI or a prodrug, because mimosa has been found to be orally active while DMT on its own is not. Chacruna (p. viridis) on the other hand, contains such alkaloids as beta-carbolines (an MAOI) and N-methyltryptamine (NMT, a relative of DMT). And these are just the ones that I know of off the top of my head, we still understand very little about what is in these plants and how these compounds affect us. Personally I really think ayahuasca is different from just taking synthetic DMT with a synthetic MAOI.

You might be wondering if these plants contain MAOIs already then why do we need to take them with b. caapi at all? I assume that the MAOI levels existing in the mimosa and chacruna are probably generally very low. But many people have reported DMT-like effects from taking them on their own as well, just not as pronounced and dependent on the specific plant source (meaning not all individual plants in the same species are the same or have the same level of alkaloids).


As for mimosa supposedly being more toxic, I don't know about that. The only thing I was able to find was that there is evidence that it deforms cow fetuses, whereas chacruna is approved for consumption by pregnant women in Brazil. I have never heard of anyone dying from either one (aside from a couple deaths that were found to be due to additional admixtures, such as tobacco). Perhaps people consider it more "toxic" because it has a reputation to produce darker trips and more side effects? It is easier to overdose on it, as it is more potent and so finer calculations of dose are needed, but I'm not aware of any fatal overdoses, overdoses are more likely to just be very mentally unpleasant. I'm really not sure about its toxicity, maybe TheAppleCore knows more?

 

[IamMe90]

I never imagined it was toxicity of the M. Hostilis before, though, because I had a very similar experience after injecting synthetic DMT IM on top of a P. Torch/2C-E/4-AcO-DMT/harmala combo chasing the same ayahuasca/mescaline type spiritual experience I've had in the past (which is intermittently about as good as psychedelia gets IME).

I know you just said you basic intention of such a combo, but really man haha, what could possibly possess you to pursue such an outrageous combo? IM DMT, Mescaline, 4-AcO-DMT, 2C-E, and harmala?? Out of curiosity I just have to ask what the dosages were.

 

[psood0nym]

Ohhh yeah. Yuremamine. I guess I did know about that along with the whole "red jungle spice" extractions, and the stuff about mimosa possibly being active without an MAOI -- just didn't think of it, thanks. The NMT info about P. Viridis is new. I've IM'd 4-ho-NMT and it was inactive (I tried 15 mg I think). I din't know about NMT in P. Viridis, but from what I've heard it doesn't amount to much on its own.

I know you just said you basic intention of such a combo, but really man haha, what could possibly possess you to pursue such an outrageous combo? IM DMT, Mescaline, 4-AcO-DMT, 2C-E, and harmala?? Out of curiosity I just have to ask what the dosages were.

The 2C-E was a small dose to boost the mescaline, and the 4-AcO-DMT with harmala was meant to simulate ayahuasca (which it has come pretty close to in my past experience). I had one extraordinary trip combining cacti and ayahuasca years ago, and had been trying to attempt it again ever since. But the combination of cactus snot and ayahuasca means you're likely to throw everything off by puking (which I did a few times trying to re-attempt it), so I was taking a different tact by using combos and different ROAs to attempt to approximate the original constituents. It might have worked if the the IM DMT didn't just wreck me all the sudden.

The exact doses are in this trip report I wrote about it.

 

[TheAppleCore]

As for mimosa supposedly being more toxic, I don't know about that. The only thing I was able to find was that there is evidence that it deforms cow fetuses, whereas chacruna is approved for consumption by pregnant women in Brazil. I have never heard of anyone dying from either one (aside from a couple deaths that were found to be due to additional admixtures, such as tobacco). Perhaps people consider it more "toxic" because it has a reputation to produce darker trips and more side effects? It is easier to overdose on it, as it is more potent and so finer calculations of dose are needed, but I'm not aware of any fatal overdoses, overdoses are more likely to just be very mentally unpleasant. I'm really not sure about its toxicity, maybe TheAppleCore knows more?

As far as I know, the toxicity of m. hostilis is largely due to tannins that are found in the root bark. A process known as "egg-white fining", in which one uses egg whites to reduce tannin levels of a brew, is considered to be a necessary step in the preparation of m. hostilis, whereas it is entirely optional, and nontraditional, in preparation of chacruna admixtures.

You are right that mimosa is also used in ayahuasca, but it's in more isolated traditions.

Mimosa is used traditionally, but I don't think there are any traditions of using it in ayahuasca. It is used in something called vinho da jurema, which basically translates to wine of mimosa hostilis, a cold-water extract of the root bark, drunk without an MAOI. There is no tradition which cooks the root bark into a brew, because heat leaches the toxic tannins into the water. This has only been possible after the recent discovery of egg-white fining, described above.

 

[Ismene]

While there may be trace amounts of other things in the plants I doubt whether the human body would be able to detect them when under the onslaught of an incredibly powerful psychedelic like DMT. I think it's a little like the idea that you can feel trace amounts of "LSD-24" etc alongside the LSD-25.

I just don't think the human system is that sensitive, other than it being placebo effect. It's a bit like saying you could tell that someone had just taken a piss in a 10,000 gallon swimming pool.

Apparantly the natives believe that "yellow" mimosa is different to the "black" mimosa is different to the "red" mimosa. I think it's just placebo and superstition.

 

[psood0nym]

While there may be trace amounts of other things in the plants I doubt whether the human body would be able to detect them when under the onslaught of an incredibly powerful psychedelic like DMT. I think it's a little like the idea that you can feel trace amounts of "LSD-24" etc alongside the LSD-25.

I just don't think the human system is that sensitive, other than it being placebo effect. It's a bit like saying you could tell that someone had just taken a piss in a 10,000 gallon swimming pool.

Apparantly the natives believe that "yellow" mimosa is different to the "black" mimosa is different to the "red" mimosa. I think it's just placebo and superstition.

My experience with the plants versus oral synthetic DMT was very different, but I'm still inclined towards this sort of interpretation because I can't think of any other explanation supported by any cogent evidence. My best guess is that it has to do with the differences in the way oral DMT moves through the digestive tract. With synthetic I think it pretty much absorbs through the stomach lining, whereas when ingesting a volume of tea maybe it gets taken up and propelled through in different ways. I know that when I boil down and encapsulate mimosa tea (my most common way of taking ayahuasca) I rarely ever vomit. It "seems" like when I roll over on one side while tripping that within a minute or two I get DMT rushes. Then I roll over on another and ... more rushes, again after a minute or two. I get the impression during these experiences that gravity is moving the tea to a new length of zigzagging small intestine where the rate of DMT absorption quickens relative to where it was sitting before. With synthetic the trip is very steady (not nearly as fun or intense because of it).

So, at least in my experience, the qualitative differences between oral synthetic and plant-based oral DMT may have little intrinsically to do with the source and more to do with digestive dynamics. I've also had the experience of eating after the trip has wound down and getting a surge of DMT when the food starts to digest. I don't think that would happen with synthetic taken on an empty stomach -- though I've never tested that theory.

 

[TheAppleCore]

^ Consider the fact that many people agree that there is a significant qualitative difference between sublingual and intranasal MXE -- the same substance, in the same form, simply taken through different routes of administration.

 

[psood0nym]

^Isn't that what I was doing -- considering how changing the body dynamics of the same compound can alter qualitative effects independent of a substance's intrinsic properties? Don't mean to be sarcastic, I'm just not sure what you mean by your post because you were talking about removing the tannins and such before, putting you -- suggestively -- in the "other camp" on this issue.

I tried a cold water extract of M. Hostilis once in a dorm room, heh. I was gonna boil it down and call it "organic soup" if anyone asked. I left it for a few days. When I opened the milk jug container with the goods in it a god awful reek filled our section of the dorm. Mimosa wood dust rots quickly in water. Who knew? Dumped that shit in the toilet.

 

[Swimmingdancer]

I believe that all the other compounds found in the plants DO affect the experience. I think they synergize with each other and affect the brain in different ways, it's so complex and we don't fully understand how it works, so it seems ignorant/arrogant to say that it's not possible - there is different shit in plants than just the DMT and the MAOI so why would it be impossible for it to affect the brain differently? It makes perfect sense to me.

It's just like how smoking a cigarette is different from taking nicotine. (Only perhaps even more pronounced).

 

[psood0nym]

I don't think anybody is saying it's IMPOSSIBLE. It's a matter of "would a double-blind study inquiring into said matter achieve statistical significance?" There's so much variance to be accounted for and so many factors that could tip judgment about the matter one way or the other. That's why we stick to the factors (DMT) we definitely know have an effect. It's not that other influences aren't possible, it's that we can't really talk about them sensibly or pragmatically so it's all just flapping of the lips (or fingers in the case of typing). There's not necessarily arrogance here, just a desperation for something semi-solid to talk/think about.

 

[TheAppleCore]

^Isn't that what I was doing -- considering how changing the body dynamics of the same compound can alter qualitative effects independent of a substance's intrinsic properties?

Yeah, I was just backing you up, basically.

I'm just not sure what you mean by your post because you were talking about removing the tannins and such before, putting you -- suggestively -- in the "other camp" on this issue.

I'd say I'm in both camps on this one. Both body dynamics, and differences in the chemical compositions of organic brews, would seem to affect the quality of intoxication.