My experimental withdrawal proces from gabaergics - opinions?

[jambabomba]

I have been recently withdrawing from xanax, temazepam, phenibut, lyrica, tramal and codeine. I have been using them about 6 months every day and allmodt year more or less. Tramal and codeine I stopped cold turkey and xanor I tapered in about week or two from 4 to 0mg. I was really suffering as I stopped those two opioids and xanax together. Anyway if interested you can read my story with more details at "phenibut, benzo and lyrica withdrawal - help and opinions" thread.

I have been thinking few theories regarding these prolonged withdrawal symptoms that many times comes with gabaergic drugs. According to some studies receptors are capable to recover in about two weeks of abstinence and many people feels about normal usually after two weeks of withdrawals with many substances including benzos etc. but why is it that so many people experience some protracted withdrawals even year after?

I really think that it isn't gaba receptors that aren't capable of recover but instead I believe that withdrawal causes some minor brain damage and also with that some kind of post traumatic stress dissorder (as it is often very traumatic at least has been to me) wich triggers these symptoms that people tend to think withdrawal but as they might actually be a new disorder (PTSD) and/or recovering process from brain damage.

So I have been now trying to minimize that stress and trauma in my ongoing withdrawal process to see if that would be the key to avoid protracted withdrawals despite off rapid withdrawing process and will be posting here how is it going to work. Because last time when I withdrew from benzos and opioids (2008) I was feeling "withdrawals" even after two years - or I thought so. But now I think they weren't actually withdrawals but PTSD and maybe brain recovery from trauma wich wasn't related to gaba receptors at all.

So now what I will do are following things:

1) Fasting

Fasting has been proven to be very effective thing to protect brain cells against stress. It posses neuroprotective and antiseizure acitivity. Fasting has been shown to even protect brain cells against chemotherapy wich usually destroys brains but when people fast prior to chemo they have allmost zero problems after chemo and could go to work etc. Compared to those who eat normally suffered great side effects. So fasting really offers very powerful protection to brains agains any kind of stress. I also think that it is bodys signal to tell by nause or a lack of appetite that you really shouldn't eat then. Your body is trying maybe to protect your brains by telling you "don't eat but fast instead".

2) Ketodiet

Ketodiet has been used succesfully with epileptic patients even with those who are drug tolerant. Ketonebodies betahydroxybutyrate (wich has similarities with GHB) lifts mood and give a sense of well being along with acetoacetic acid. Ketodiet also somehow changes brain metabolism better so that brains are working smoother and resist seizures etc. Fast and ketodiet are partially similar and when combined they offers many synergistics benefits.

3) Growth hormone

Growth hormone and its metabolite IGF-1 are powerful neuroprotectants and repairs brain cells and especially when there is some damage they really speeds up the healing process. But of course synthetic GH isn't best option as it has many unwanted effects (ex. Gh flood wich isn't natural and does bad things). So better option is GHRP-6 or some similar and they have been shown to be neuroprotective them self also. I believe growth hormone could offer significant benefit during recovery process. As everyones probably knows young people heal way faster from any kind of damage than older and it's growth hormone that is responsible for that.

So now I'm trying these methods to see if they might work as I suppose to.

I try to fast every day 16-20h and eat rest of the time and only quality food wich has much of neuroprorective properties. Vegetables, nuts, fatty fish, meat, fruits, healthy fats (especislly coconut oil is good as it converts to ketonebodies easily)... And also bunch of supplements like some vitamins, ala, omega-3, high dose magnesium, l-theanine, q10 etc. Also I'm using DXM to try to counteract glutamate exitotoxicity effect. Would use memantine or something else IF I only could get it somewhere..

So my point is now try to minimize any trauma or damage to brains and also speed up the repair process with GHRP-6 (wich stimulates GH secretion) and see if that have impact on the length and severity of the withdrawals. At the moment it seems promising!

What do you guys think about this?

 

[sekio]

Fasting is not neuroprotective, your body needs food energy to function. And there's no evidence that I can see that ketogenic diets will make you feel any better in w/d either.

I think you should treat the symptoms of w/d until they disappear, and focus on maintaining a healthy lifestyle that doesn't require drugs to fucntion.

 

[jambabomba]

Fasting is not neuroprotective, your body needs food energy to function. And there's no evidence that I can see that ketogenic diets will make you feel any better in w/d either.

I think you should treat the symptoms of w/d until they disappear, and focus on maintaining a healthy lifestyle that doesn't require drugs to fucntion.

Fasting is not neuroprotective according to....?
With all respects I have to disagree with you.

Of course I didn't mean fasting long periods of times like weeks with only water I only was speaking intermittent fasting with low carb or ketogenic diet. At that way you can get advance of neuroprotective, anticonvulsant and gaba enhancing effects from fast but still eat enough at evening (or when ever one like to break a fast but I prefer evening because eating big activates parasymphatethic nervous system but of course in withdrawals symphathetic nervous system dominates so much that it doesn't have any major relaxing effect at all and appetite is diminished anyway.) so that you can avoid muscle loss, mineral/vitamin/essential fat deficiencys etc. Maybe eat two or three meals at evening and try to get healthy fats and good protein abd carbs from fruits and vegetables. And then fast again to the next evening. Of course supplements like magnesium etc. Should be taken during fast but not any calories. I personally has noticed that eating much of carbs before my benzodose when I was at rapid acute withdrawal phase two weeks ago it really made me feel I could have seizure; muscle spasms, confusion, exagerated panic and anxiety etc. But when I fast or stay in ketosis the difference is really kind of huge! Fasting and ketogenic diet in my opinion allows more rapid taper. I think it isn't very smart to eat pasta or that kind of "basic" food during withdrawals from gabaergics.

And body really doesn't need much food to function especially at the withdrawals when chatecholamine secretion (mainly epinephrine/adrenaline and norepinephrine/noradrenaline) is so high that it will release fat from your adipose tissue at high rate and also cortisol is released wich keeps blood sugar at constant level. Eating carbohydrate is in my opinion unnesessary and almost stupid because your blood is allready filled with lipids and sugar released from your body.

"DR (dietary restriction) can protect neurons against degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer's, Parkinson's and Huntington's diseases and stroke. Moreover, DR can stimulate the production of new neurons from stem cells (neurogenesis) and can enhance synaptic plasticity, which may increase the ability of the brain to resist aging and restore function following injury"

It has been suggested that brain disabilities after stroke etc. Are mostly mediated due glutamate excitotoxicity and fasting/calorie restriction inhibits that excitotoxicity. So it would be only logical to assume that CR/IF or regular fast do the same thing also in withdrawals when glutamate try to do damage.

"The beneficial effects of DR (Dietary restriction), particularly those of intermittent fasting, appear to be the result of a cellular stress response that stimulates the production of proteins that enhance neuronal plasticity and resistance to oxidative and metabolic insults; they include neurotrophic factors such as brain-derived neurotrophic factor (BDNF), protein chaperones such as heat-shock proteins, and mitochondrial uncoupling proteins"

Intermittent fasting does increase brain resistance eRtowards damaging factors and also stimulates neurogenesis. It is also worth of mentioning that BDNF itself is a very powerful antidepressant wich is obviously a good thing in every withdrawal process and those good effects you can't get by eating ad libitum.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/12558961/

Ketones increases GABA levels in brains:

" These data are consistent with the hypothesis that the metabolism of ketone bodies to acetyl-CoA results in a diminution of the pool of brain oxaloacetate, which is consumed in the citrate synthetase reaction (oxaloacetate + acetyl-CoA → citrate). As less oxaloacetate is available to the aspartate aminotransferase reaction, thereby lowering the rate of glutamate transamination, more glutamate becomes accessible to the glutamate decarboxylase pathway, thereby favoring the synthesis of GABA."

http://content.karger.com/ProdukteD...oduktNr=224107&Ausgabe=225541&ArtikelNr=17331

It seems to have also some kind of synergistic action when combining calorie restriction and ketogenic diet so that more raw material comes avalaible to GAD and even GAD levels itself are increased by ketones. Calorie restriction and ketogenic diet increases GAD (glutamic acid decarboxylase - same entsyme wich Lyrica increases and thus increases GABA levels)

" These data clearly show that calorie restriction increases brain GAD65 and -67 expression in several brain regions, independent of ketogenic effects. These observations may explain why caloric restriction improves the efficacy of the ketogenic diet in treating epilepsy and suggest that diet modification might be useful in treatment of a number of brain disorders characterized by impaired GAD or GABA activity. © 2004 Wiley-Liss, Inc."

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/...ticated=false&deniedAccessCustomi1sedMessage=

Ketogenic diet has anticonvulsant and neuroprotective properties:

"the ketone body acetone has anticonvulsant activity and could play a role in the seizure protection afforded by the diet. In addition to acute seizure protection, the ketogenic diet provides protection against the development of spontaneous recurrent seizures in models of chronic epilepsy, and it has neuroprotective properties in diverse models of neurodegenerative disease."

http://www.pedneur.com/article/S0887-8994(07)00093-8/abstract

And more interesting information about benefits of fasting against excitotoxicity and seizure:

"Fasting is known to result in an increased production of ketone bodies, which can be used as an energy source and are known to provide some protective effects including neuroprotection and resistance to epileptic seizures. We therefore measured serum levels of β-hydroxybutyrate after an overnight fast in mice that had been maintained on AL (ad libitum - eat what they wanted, LDF, and IF (intermittent fasting) diets. Mice on the IF diet exhibited a 2-fold increase in the fasting serum concentration of β-hydroxybutyrate compared with mice fed AL (Fig.2
d). In contrast, the β-hydroxybutyrate concentration of mice on the LDF diet were decreased compared with mice fed AL.

When the excitotoxin kainic acid (KA) is injected into the dorsal hippocampus of mice it induces seizures and damage to pyramidal neurons in regions CA3 and CA1. KA was injected into the dorsal hippocampus of mice that had been maintained for 24 weeks on AL, LDF, and IF diets. All mice exhibited seizures of similar magnitude and duration (data not shown). Mice were killed 24 h after KA administration, tissue sections from their brains were stained with cresyl violet, and the numbers of neurons in regions CA3 and CA1 of each hippocampus were counted. KA caused a marked loss of CA3 and CA1 neurons in mice fed AL. As expected, many neurons in regions CA3 and CA1 of the hippocampus injected with KA degenerated. There was a significant increase in the survival of CA3 and CA1 neurons in the IF mice compared with mice fed AL. LDF also protected the CA1 neurons, albeit to a lesser amount than did IF, but did not protect CA3 neurons against KA-induced damage. Interestingly, the mice PF to the IF group also exhibited an increased resistance of CA1 neurons to KA-induced damage relative to either AL-fed or LDF mice."

http://m.pnas.org/content/100/10/6216.full ull[/url]

 

[jambabomba]

Also intermittent fasting increases growth hormone secretion wich also is a big help at speeding up the brains repair processes. If I remember correctly IF mice had also kind of high IGF-1 levels wich act as a powerful neuroprotectant inhibiting brain cells apoptosis/death so it counteracts the effects of excess glutamate also.

So there are several reasons to do intermittent fasting coupled with ketogenic diet during withdrawal; it protects brains very effectively against glutamate exitotoxicity and seizures, brightens mood, increase cells ability to handle stress, increases neurogeneration
and plasticity, and possible might shorten the withdrawal and recocery process.

 

[jambabomba]

Fasting is not neuroprotective, your body needs food energy to function. And there's no evidence that I can see that ketogenic diets will make you feel any better in w/d either.

I think you should treat the symptoms of w/d until they disappear, and focus on maintaining a healthy lifestyle that doesn't require drugs to fucntion.

What do you think about those links/studies references I posted?

Personally I'm very convinced about benefits of fasting during withdrawals when combined with good feeding periods so that body gets nutritions its (proteins and good fats) need but stays in ketosis if fasting is combined with low carb diet. And even if diet isn't very low carb when fasting has continued enough (maybe at least 14-16 hours) to deplenish liver glycogen stores body will replenish glycogens before it starts to use glucose as energy so ketosis will continue even though eating big amounts of carbs.

 

[Sturnam]

I have been thinking few theories regarding these prolonged withdrawal symptoms that many times comes with gabaergic drugs. According to some studies receptors are capable to recover in about two weeks of abstinence and many people feels about normal usually after two weeks of withdrawals with many substances including benzos etc. but why is it that so many people experience some protracted withdrawals even year after?

I really think that it isn't gaba receptors that aren't capable of recover but instead I believe that withdrawal causes some minor brain damage and also with that some kind of post traumatic stress dissorder (as it is often very traumatic at least has been to me) wich triggers these symptoms that people tend to think withdrawal but as they might actually be a new disorder (PTSD) and/or recovering process from brain damage.

What makes you think it's brain damage and/or PTSD? Evidence?

Also, most of the 'neuroprotective' effects are only realized when there is acute insult (i.e. stroke or other brain damage), and they are only useful in a relatively small period of time afterwards. Unless you are actively withdrawing from high dose benzos, I doubt there is any active damage.

I would wager that PAWS is due to the body making homeostatic changes during drug abuse (altered gene/protein/receptor expression, epigenetic changes, neuron morphology/connectivity), and then once the drug is removed, these changes remain. These changes were once adaptive (reduced response to constant drug exposure), but once the drug is withdrawn, they may be maladaptive. And since they are on the level of gene expression and epigenetic changes, these changes are maintained for long periods of time despite absence of drug.

I don't think you need to be messing with drugs right now, especially ones such as Growth hormone analogs. Focus on eating healthy (whether caloric restriction or not), and plenty of exercise and other activities. Stimulate your brain, and it will help it recover.

 

[alkap555]

First of all, I have to question the logic behind withdrawing from opioids, GABA-A and GABA-B -ergic drugs concomitantly.

xanor I tapered in about week or two from 4 to 0mg

That is a ridiculously rapid taper for a benzo, especially a high-potency short-acting one like alprazolam. The rule of thumb with benzos is the slower taper the better, especially with regards to avoiding/lessening the severity and duration of PAWS.

And I would have to disagree with your theory regarding the etiology of PAWS as being a form of PTSD. Some studies have demonstrated protracted neurochemical and even morphological changes (gross atrophy in extreme cases) resulting from long-term benzo dependence, even after lengthy periods of abstinence (as with most things in neuroscience, however, studies have also shown the opposite--no long-term changes).

I would echo the advice of Sturnam: eat healthy, exercise, and don't mess with growth factors and ketogenic diets. Always remember that animal (especially rodent) studies do not always translate to humans. Case in point, we have successfully cured Alzheimer's in transgenic mice with half a dozen treatment modalities, none of which have ever demonstrated an effect on the human disease.

But please just tell me why you decided to withdraw from opioids, benzos and phenibut SIMULTANEOUSLY. If you are worried about brain damage that just seems down right counter-intuitive.

Regardless, Good Luck.

 

[oar9fi]

I've actually had a seizure because of not eating. I've always gotten shaky hands when I don't eat but I didn't think much of it until I had a seizure while driving on the interstate at 70mph. I have almost no fat on me so when my body uses up the calories things can get bad pretty quick. Eating healthy is a good idea for everyone even without drug withdrawl, but fasting could either make one feel worse or even be dangerous.

 

[FlippingTop]

But please just tell me why you decided to withdraw from opioids, benzos and phenibut SIMULTANEOUSLY. If you are worried about brain damage that just seems down right counter-intuitive.

This^

If you have so much respect for your health why WD from all of them at the same time?

 

[pofacedhoe]

its a stupid plan to come off all three drugs at once and to not eat. its your life. be a glutton for punishment if you want to.

almost makes me think your trolling...

 

[jambabomba]

What makes you think it's brain damage and/or PTSD? Evidence?

No I don't have any evidence. As I said it was just my own thinking and basically because many symptoms I had last time I withdrew from benzos could have been resembled symptoms of minor brain damage. Of course they could have been linked to many other things/psychiatric conditions also but as as there is that glutamate excitotoxicity also involved that got me thinking it.

Also, most of the 'neuroprotective' effects are only realized when there is acute insult (i.e. stroke or other brain damage), and they are only useful in a relatively small period of time afterwards. Unless you are actively withdrawing from high dose benzos, I doubt there is any active damage.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean. My english isn't native language. But I think there is no drug or miracle that could help brain damage more than only relative small period of time afterwards. So I don't understand how that is evidence against usefull neuroprotective effectives of fasting/CR? Or was it even meant to be (not sure).

What I meant was exactly that when your body is GOING through some extreme affliction of any kind why wouldn't it be wise to fast at the same time? Then - if there is something damaging happening - that could be partially antagonised. At least we have much of an evidence of benefits and neuroprotective qualities of fast/CR/IF and that can be read from many studies. If it is cancer or some other illness when your body tells not to eat then I believe it is propably the smartest thing to listen your body and not to eat even that some doctors usually want you to eat some carbohydrate. Also if you have read those CR studies you propably have noticed that CR spares animals from many kind of diseases (also from brain related) that would otherwise come with age and ad libitum and especially with high carbohydrate/high insulin diet. And intermittent fasting will propably give these exactly same benefits with extra benefits of not loosing lean mass etc. It was interesting to note that even animals who had been on caloric restriction all their lives had more brain mass, lean body mass and didn't were nearly so ill at older age than their ad libitum counterparts.

I would wager that PAWS is due to the body making homeostatic changes during drug abuse (altered gene/protein/receptor expression, epigenetic changes, neuron morphology/connectivity), and then once the drug is removed, these changes remain. These changes were once adaptive (reduced response to constant drug exposure), but once the drug is withdrawn, they may be maladaptive. And since they are on the level of gene expression and epigenetic changes, these changes are maintained for long periods of time despite absence of drug.

Yes you are propably right. As I said earlier I take my comments back about that brain damage. Also if it would cause severe brain damage I think it should be seen in neuropsychology tests. When I was tested at rehabilitation center at 2008 few months after cold turkey withdrawal I got actually better scores than avarage especially from memory department. Of coursey they could have been better before benzo use (who knows). Also Dr. Ashton has mentioned on his pages that he hasn't seen any real evidence that benzo use or withdrawalls causes any brain damage.

I don't think you need to be messing with drugs right now, especially ones such as Growth hormone analogs. Focus on eating healthy (whether caloric restriction or not), and plenty of exercise and other activities. Stimulate your brain, and it will help it recover.

With all respects I have to disagree. Growth hormone has renewing and regenerating properties and those will only help. Ghrp:s has been proven to be neuroprotective themself and actually as they are met-enkhephalin analogs they might effect a little on opioid receptors (at least that it feels now when withdrawing because they significantly ease tension and brings hunger when there is no natural hunger much now). I know studies says they lack opioid activity but it feels sometimes there might be some. That hunger stimulation maybe triggers something.

Anyways gh only has good properties and it has been thought to be one of the key mechanisms of long age from caloric restriction. As that and fasting also increases growth hormone. Bad reputation comes from IGF-1 wich is thought to be key mediator of gh:s anabolic properties. Igf-1 also causes negative sides as worst increased possibility of cancer but that isn't gh:s properties. Igf-1 doesn't neseccarily rise much even if there is much of gh if one is fasting and limiting carbohydrate consumption. As carbohydrates and insulin are the major triggers of igf-1 secretion.

But when thinking about withdrawal situation temporarily rise in IGF-1 levels would do - I believe - only good things as helping brains to adapt and growth new connections, updating receptors or whatever they need to.

Of course that isn't much of an use if also doesn't eat healthy foods same time like greens, fish etc.

 

[jambabomba]

I've actually had a seizure because of not eating. I've always gotten shaky hands when I don't eat but I didn't think much of it until I had a seizure while driving on the interstate at 70mph. I have almost no fat on me so when my body uses up the calories things can get bad pretty quick. Eating healthy is a good idea for everyone even without drug withdrawl, but fasting could either make one feel worse or even be dangerous.

I don't mean to be arrogant and don't mean this as a personal insult but I say few things.

It is true that very low blood sugar levels can also trigger seizures. But so low bloos sugar in healthy individual (without epileptic disorder) should be almost impossible. Because when your blood sugars falls glucagon is secreted wich stimulates liver to break glycogen to glucose and to bloodstream. So healthy people really don't need any sugar (or carbohydrates) from their foods. Even when liver/muscle glycogen is depleted body will make glucose from proteins.

But I don't mean I don't believe you. I just believe also that it should be very rare. Also I have noticed that today many people are really sugar addicts so that they really can't fast much or go a day without carbohydrate because their bodies are so unadapted to use fat as an energy. And as a result they are allways in the storage mode and accumulating fat reserve wich their bodies can't use - only store.

Fasting to otherwise healthy person really shouldn't be a problem. It is afterall what we were created for (or evolved). Or could you think of a hunther gatherer to get a snickers on the hunting trip? They fasted long periods finding foods and then eated and rested.

 

[jambabomba]

First of all, I have to question the logic behind withdrawing from opioids, GABA-A and GABA-B -ergic drugs concomitantly.

But please just tell me why you decided to withdraw from opioids, benzos and phenibut SIMULTANEOUSLY. If you are worried about brain damage that just seems down right counter-intuitive.

Regardless, Good Luck.

I'm not tapering them simultaneously. As in my first thread I was asking advices and finally decided that I will left the xanax first, then temazepam and now I'm in a phase where I used 5mg valium 3 days ago and then 2,5mg day ago. Today might not take anything.

Phenibut and lyrica I'm still taking 5g and 300mg so I haven't tapered them at the same time.

Logic comes mainly from my personality. I'm kind of all or nothing. And now I just want to get off meds asap so that I don't come anymore addicted. Allthough I will use these meds in future I don't want to be physically addictive. I really don't see any obstacle why I couldn't do this as fast as I do and have done. Codeine doesn't give withdrawal syndroms (of course cravings but not physical) at all and tramadol withdrawalls I have experienced so many times that they are allmost part of my life. So they weren't any major obstacles to me so I could "easily" stop them cold turkey with same time rapidly tapering xanax. Of course I suffered but I knew what was going on and belived it will pass so it was only as big problem as I let it to be. I wasn't capable to work at that time though. Now I am again at work. Recovery has been fast and much much faster and better now (I believe at least partly because of intermittent fasting, ketosis and ghrp-6) than it was in 2008 when I last withdrew benzos. Tramadol I have withdrew many times after that as I said but not benzos.

That is a ridiculously rapid taper for a benzo, especially a high-potency short-acting one like alprazolam. The rule of thumb with benzos is the slower taper the better, especially with regards to avoiding/lessening the severity and duration of PAWS.

Maybe this is individual thing also and the length of use influeces much of this. Remember that I only used about 6 months daily and not much more than at max. 4mg xanax a day and 40-60mg temazepam and about a year every now and then (1-3x week). So I think rapid taper is not so hard at this situation if you are healthy individual. Much bigger alterations on blood pressure and heart rate I have experienced during my trainings and work than during withdrawals. I'm not a weak old person but young and strong. That influences also what you can handle.

And I would have to disagree with your theory regarding the etiology of PAWS as being a form of PTSD. Some studies have demonstrated protracted neurochemical and even morphological changes (gross atrophy in extreme cases) resulting from long-term benzo dependence, even after lengthy periods of abstinence (as with most things in neuroscience, however, studies have also shown the opposite--no long-term changes).

Well I don't know anymore what to think about that brain damage regarding these withdrawals. But how can you be sure that I didn't develop some kind of PTSD after my withdrawals? That was new and VERY VERY scary to me at then. I was really panicking all the time and allmost lost my touch to this reality and depressed finally severely. It was really traumatic. Why there couldn't be PTSD from that kind of experience?

Now I also feel that despite of rapid withdrawal I won't develop any major PAWS because of also my attitude towards this whole withdrawing process. I haven't let it traumatize me like I let last time. And know I feel much better allready and there is no signs of PAWS that were present last time in withdrawal process at 2008.

 

[alkap555]

But how can you be sure that I didn't develop some kind of PTSD after my withdrawals? That was new and VERY VERY scary to me at then. I was really panicking all the time and allmost lost my touch to this reality and depressed finally severely. It was really traumatic.

Sounds like withdrawal...its not supposed to be an enjoyable experience. Alright well whatever positive thinking is going to help you through it man, go for it. I'm not gonna hate.

We need some evidence to elevate this discussion above purely speculative "e-opining." The burden of proof is on you.

Still, good luck. Nobody deserves withdrawals.

 

[polarbearsarecool]

I'm not tapering them simultaneously. As in my first thread I was asking advices and finally decided that I will left the xanax first, then temazepam and now I'm in a phase where I used 5mg valium 3 days ago and then 2,5mg day ago. Today might not take anything.

Phenibut and lyrica I'm still taking 5g and 300mg so I haven't tapered them at the same time.

Logic comes mainly from my personality. I'm kind of all or nothing. And now I just want to get off meds asap so that I don't come anymore addicted. Allthough I will use these meds in future I don't want to be physically addictive. I really don't see any obstacle why I couldn't do this as fast as I do and have done. Codeine doesn't give withdrawal syndroms (of course cravings but not physical) at all and tramadol withdrawalls I have experienced so many times that they are allmost part of my life. So they weren't any major obstacles to me so I could "easily" stop them cold turkey with same time rapidly tapering xanax. Of course I suffered but I knew what was going on and belived it will pass so it was only as big problem as I let it to be. I wasn't capable to work at that time though. Now I am again at work. Recovery has been fast and much much faster and better now (I believe at least partly because of intermittent fasting, ketosis and ghrp-6) than it was in 2008 when I last withdrew benzos. Tramadol I have withdrew many times after that as I said but not benzos.



Maybe this is individual thing also and the length of use influeces much of this. Remember that I only used about 6 months daily and not much more than at max. 4mg xanax a day and 40-60mg temazepam and about a year every now and then (1-3x week). So I think rapid taper is not so hard at this situation if you are healthy individual. Much bigger alterations on blood pressure and heart rate I have experienced during my trainings and work than during withdrawals. I'm not a weak old person but young and strong. That influences also what you can handle.



Well I don't know anymore what to think about that brain damage regarding these withdrawals. But how can you be sure that I didn't develop some kind of PTSD after my withdrawals? That was new and VERY VERY scary to me at then. I was really panicking all the time and allmost lost my touch to this reality and depressed finally severely. It was really traumatic. Why there couldn't be PTSD from that kind of experience?

Now I also feel that despite of rapid withdrawal I won't develop any major PAWS because of also my attitude towards this whole withdrawing process. I haven't let it traumatize me like I let last time. And know I feel much better allready and there is no signs of PAWS that were present last time in withdrawal process at 2008.

1st off, the lack of seizure and complete w/d is a result of the phenibut/lyrica usage, you are on a decent sized dose for both. And with the cessation of the benzos some normalization probably has begun to reoccur, but the complexity of using phenibut/lyrica ONTOP of benzo usage is much much extraneous GABA activity, these drugs are not completely selective for GABA receptor subtypes of course but the reality is that you were taking this depressant cocktail and the opposing/competitive action of some of the included maybe even slightly reduced the effects and the eventual withdrawl effects.

Likewise fasting/ketogenic diet is KETOSIS bottom line and you aren't even completely off lyrica/phenibut/benzos completely yet so any predicted anti-seizure effects from diets, HGH, will be minimal at best.

Withdrawls aren't brain damage, they are readaptation of the brain from a adapted addicted state to a normalized state with a wide array of systems affected..

You probably feel much better too because of the lack of the depressant effects from the xanax but your "rapid withdrawl" is a cloak, the lyrica and phenibut is preventing you from entering true w/d and PAWS.

 

[Sturnam]

me:

Also, most of the 'neuroprotective' effects are only realized when there is acute insult (i.e. stroke or other brain damage), and they are only useful in a relatively small period of time afterwards. Unless you are actively withdrawing from high dose benzos, I doubt there is any active damage

I'll clarify. The large majority of neuroprotective drug only work in a very short time period after the incident (4-24 hours). For example, if you have a stroke, but wait 24 hours to treat it, no amount of neuroprotective drug will help. Likewise, if this (supposed) damage occured ANYTIME in the past, neuroprotective drugs will likely not help. However, if you have a stroke and immediately receive treatment for it (best results <4 hours), then you will show improvement.

Caveat: most 'neuroprotective' drugs have only been tested in animals, due to the aforementioned reason. It's hard to get humans in immediately for treatment, plus a large majority of neuroprotective drugs fail to actually provide meaningful protection in humans, even when administered within the 4 hour window.

With all respects I have to disagree. Growth hormone has renewing and regenerating properties and those will only help. Ghrp:s has been proven to be neuroprotective themself and actually as they are met-enkhephalin analogs they might effect a little on opioid receptors (at least that it feels now when withdrawing because they significantly ease tension and brings hunger when there is no natural hunger much now). I know studies says they lack opioid activity but it feels sometimes there might be some. That hunger stimulation maybe triggers something.

Anyways gh only has good properties and it has been thought to be one of the key mechanisms of long age from caloric restriction.

Really? It NEVER has any harmful effects? Ever? At any dose?

Since I'll assume you don't agree with that, then agree that we don't know everything (or likely even half) of GH's effects on the body. And if that's true, then it's possible that withdrawing from drugs and using GH/using GH to repair drug 'damage' could have unintended side effects. And if that's true, there exists the remote possibility that these side effects could be dangerous or even deadly. However unlikely, these possibilities exist.

My point is that until you are stable, healthy, and drug free, I don't think you shouldn't mess around with more drugs to fix your current drug-induced problems. How do you know your body will not repair itself naturally? I think you need to give it some time. Your body is adapting to its new drug free state; don't throw a wrench into that by adding another drug. Rome was not built in a day, and the brain will not repair itself overnight. However, it is an incredibly resilient organ, with tremendous power to heal itself. Give it some time, then experiment with GH/caloric restriction.

Whatever you decide, the best of luck to you.

 

[alkap555]

Hah yea why don't you I.V. a shitload of Coomassie Blue, its been shown in rats to prevent neuronal death in traumatic spinal cord injury. As a bonus, you should turn bright blue for a few days as well. Let us know how it turns out.