seeking advice/feedback for quitting opiates - please help!

[jiveturkey11]

Hello, i’ve been lurking around here for a couple months now – i’ve gotten some really valuable information abt harm reduction, potentiation, etc. I’m hoping to get some advice abt suboxone, and using it for a rapid taper off opiates. I have been using oxycodone for almost 6 years now (it all started with valid health reasons). I average abt 150-200mg oxycodone per day (a large portion is prescribed, but i also supplement as my script is no longer adequate). I know it’s not a huge habit, compared to what i have heard from others, but it’s big enough for little ol’ me (i’m 105 lbs). i cwe almost everything, keeping my liver safe, but it takes at least 50mg just for me to get out of bed in the morning. It’s ur typical story – no more euphoria, and using just to keep w/d’s at bay. i have absolutely no ability to taper, so i’m going to have to cold turkey. I know i will always be reliant on pain medication, but i need to take a break for some time (at least a few weeks, but hoping for a few months) - to reduce my dependence, to keep my tolerance down (that, and my supplier dried up!), so i can use responsibly and manage 2 chronic pain conditions.

Now – i’ve booked 4 days off work (friday and monday), so i can get over the worst of it without having to be at work. There is absolutely no way i can manage at work, given the type of work i do. I’ve got the following aids to help me through, but just wanted to get some feedback. It may be overkill, but i’ve got to be able to function on tuesday. When i go into w/d’s i am useless - i am paralyzed by anxiety and can’t think logically, i get creepy-crawly disgusting feeling skin, twitchy RLS, cascading drenches of sweat, knees that ache like i’ve got horrible arthritis, and incurable insomnia. Tho i am well aware of what i am in for, and i totally deserve it bc of my reckless behaviour, i want to be able to go back to work only dealing with the mental part of it - even tho that can be the worst part...ah, the dreaded PAWS! I’ve read that i should expect 1 month of PAWS for every year of use...so it looks like i’ve sentenced myself to potentially 6mos of mental misery and fatigue...but i do have a plan, not just for acute w/d’s, but also the dreaded PAWS

Here’s some of the ammo in my arsenal, and my plan. I have done a ton of research, and will report back as to how i fared, and document what was used (dosage, frequency, etc). I’ve done countless hours of research, so i’ve got an extensive list of potential aids (i will post them all in a new thread, as it also includes a desciption for why certain things work, reading suggestion links, etc, that’s way too long to post here). But any feedback or advice beforehand would be much appreciated.

Meds (* denotes a prescription medication):
-*topiramate (i have also have chronic migraines) – but i read that this nmda antagonist can be useful in w/d’s
-*buscopan – if needed, i also suffer from ibs
-*pantoprazole magnesium – for acid reflux
-*seroquel – i can get some of this to help me sleep, but have some concerns bc i don’t know enough abt it, and how it affects serotonin and dopamine – i imagine that reducing serotonin or dopamine would make u more depressed? And depression is a huge problem for me when i stop opiate use.
-dxm gel caps (OTC) – is this just redundant bc of the topiramate, or should i use both?
-loperamide (OTC) – read that generous amts of this can be helpful (this won’t stretch out the w/d’s will it?)
-dimenhydrinate or diphenhydrinate (OTC) – for sleep aid


Vitamins & Supplements:
-black cumin seed oil (nigella sativa) – i’ve read this can also help w/d’s, i also take to aid in potentiation
-free form amino acids – to help rebuild my defunct neurotransmitters – contains only l-isomers of lysine, leucine, histidine, valine, isoleucine, methionine, threonine, glutamic acid, glycine, proline, aspartic acid, citrulline, cystine, arginine, cysteine, tyrosine, alanine, glutamine, serine, asparagines)
-vitamin C – 2000mg/day, split doses
-liquid vitamin b complex – 1 -2 droppers/day
-calcium/magnesium – 500mg/day
-herbal insomnia formula – contains hops, valerian root, skullcap, passionflower, wild lettuce leaf
-NAC – for liver detoxificiation (i also take this daily, for the odd time when i don’t CWE)
-DLPA – taken daily already, for increased analgesia effects of medication, also useful for pain relief
-Hyland’s Restful Legs formula- for RLS, PRN basis
-Detox supplement (daytime formula contains l-tyrosine, bilberry, green tea extract; nitetime formula contains hops, skullcap, lemon balm, l-5htp)
-sage and/or black cohosh – for sweating (only if i need to be presentable, as i want to sweat it all out as fast as i can!)
-also have 500mg l-glutamine tabs, 500mg acetyl l-carnitine tabs,
-rhodiola rosea – adrenal support, to assist in PAWS
-maximum potency multivitamin & mineral tabs
-melatonin w/ l-theanine & 5htp – sleep aid

Substitutes (to be used in case of unbearable suffering):
-kratom – 10mg bali, 10mg red borneo (regular, powdered leaf, but can also pick up a 15X or 30X at the local smoke shop if i get desperate, but it’s pretty pricey)– i’ve only used this in cases where my DOC was not available, as it does not produce euphoria for me, but can help with w/d’s. Will toss-n-wash a tablespoon here and there on PRN basis
-suboxone – 2 or 3 tabs – not certain if i will be getting it, but it’s a possibility
-codeine – i have access, but find i have a very bad histamine reaction if i take it in excess of 200mg, so this will only be used in a dire situation (and will be taken with Benadryl to prevent burning, flushing skin)

Other/Misc:
-i have access to a sauna at my gym, so i’m hoping to use it to help speed up the detox with lots of extra sweating
-ear acupuncture – i read this helps release endorphins, and can make u feel better
-walking/light exercise – i plan on getting out for walks whenever possible, i usually am useless and can’t get anything done, but i am going to try to will myself to do some walking, perhaps at night, when it is a bit cooler out
-masturbation – my sex drive goes through the roof while in w/d’s, and masturbation gives me like 5seconds of relief...so as often as possible!
-meal replacement shakes – i have no appetite and can’t eat in w/d’s, so i’ve stocked up on these
-laughter – even if fake! I have a bunch of funny movies, recorded episodes of ridiculousness, stand-up comedy, even have laugh tracks on my itunes
-inspirational and entertaining reading
-tonic water – it has quinine, which can help with RLS


Now, THE MOST IMPORTANT QUESTION!!!!
USING SUBOXONE (provided I can get some)–
1. can i use the suboxone once i get into heavy withdrawals without draggin them out? I normally start getting symptoms around the 6hr mark bc i dose so frequently – stupid i know, but if i wait until the 24hr mark, i should be ok, right? I am taking percs only, so given the half-life, this is probably safe. i am wondering tho, i only plan on using a couple, small doses – mb 2mg first dose, then 1 mg 12-24hrs later, then 0.5mg 12-24hrs later, then 0.25 12-24hrs later, then ½ that every 12-24hrs forward, but for no longer than 3 or 4 days. If i do this, will my w/d’s last longer than 4 days (ie, not truly beginning until i am done the subs), or will it speed up with w/d?
2. Given my current level of use (150-200mg/day), how much suboxone would be an adequate dose to start with? Should i start with 2mg and titrate up if i need more? Or is it better to start with less than that (1mg or .5mg)?
3. Will using the suboxone help decrease my tolerance? If i take suboxone as part of a rapid taper, then take a break for a couple weeks, do you think this will have a significant impact on my tolerance? I plan on trying to return to the lowest possible dose, and always using dxm to keep my tolerance in check
Other Questions:
4. Have I missed anything? Is there anything you would change (remove, add?)
5. Seroquel – any info, opinions on how this affects brain chemistry is much appreciated.

Thanks for reading for my lengthy post. Any and all feedback is welcomed and appreciated.

 

[DonStatus]

Your plan sounds solid and to be quite honest, I really feel like saving this and using as a template for my own problems and addiction.

I have been recently stocking up on a few of the necessary supplies and I need to get before attempting to take this on, as we all know the longer the harder.

For me, I've got a lot of anxiety and keep running back to the medication to avoid WDs because they freak me out everytime.

I will eventually find the right time and setting to tackle my own.

I wish you positivity and best of luck, You Jive Ass Turkey

 

[Swimmingdancer]

Now, THE MOST IMPORTANT QUESTION!!!!
USING SUBOXONE (provided I can get some)–
1. can i use the suboxone once i get into heavy withdrawals without draggin them out? I normally start getting symptoms around the 6hr mark bc i dose so frequently – stupid i know, but if i wait until the 24hr mark, i should be ok, right? I am taking percs only, so given the half-life, this is probably safe. i am wondering tho, i only plan on using a couple, small doses – mb 2mg first dose, then 1 mg 12-24hrs later, then 0.5mg 12-24hrs later, then 0.25 12-24hrs later, then ½ that every 12-24hrs forward, but for no longer than 3 or 4 days. If i do this, will my w/d’s last longer than 4 days (ie, not truly beginning until i am done the subs), or will it speed up with w/d?
2. Given my current level of use (150-200mg/day), how much suboxone would be an adequate dose to start with? Should i start with 2mg and titrate up if i need more? Or is it better to start with less than that (1mg or .5mg)?
3. Will using the suboxone help decrease my tolerance? If i take suboxone as part of a rapid taper, then take a break for a couple weeks, do you think this will have a significant impact on my tolerance? I plan on trying to return to the lowest possible dose, and always using dxm to keep my tolerance in check
Other Questions:
4. Have I missed anything? Is there anything you would change (remove, add?)
5. Seroquel – any info, opinions on how this affects brain chemistry is much appreciated.

Thanks for reading for my lengthy post. Any and all feedback is welcomed and appreciated.

Your plan sounds great to me. There are already quite a few threads on using Suboxone for a quick taper, so you might want to do a search. As for your questions:

Q 1. Yes you should wait 24 hrs before starting the Suboxone in order to try to avoid precipitated withdrawals. Theoretically the Suboxone should alleviate most of your oxycodone withdrawals, but then you will get withdrawals from the Suboxone itself. They should be weaker and more gradual than just stopping the oxycodone cold turkey. Not sure how long they will last, everyone is different, but tapering off the Suboxone and only taking it for a short time should make them much more bearable.
Q 2. I would start with 1mg because you want to take the lowest amount of Suboxone possible in order to just make your withdrawal symptoms bearable. Exactly how much you will need really varies from person to person and can't be calculated solely by your current dose of oxycodone. If you take 1mg and a couple hours later you are still feeling sick then take more.
Q 3. Yes, if you take a break for a couple weeks it should reduce your tolerance.
Q 4. After the first day - where you may need to titrate up if 1mg turns out not to be enough - I would try to space out the Suboxone doses as much as you can, instead of taking them so close together. Instead of taking 2mg for the first dose, then 1 mg 12-24hrs later, then 0.5mg 12-24hrs later, then 0.25 12-24hrs later, then ½ that every 12-24hrs forward, I would suggest something similar to the following:

DAY 1: 1mg. Then if you are still feeling withdrawals 2-3 hrs later, then take another 0.5mg. Repeat until your withdrawal symptoms are just tolerable.
DAY 2: Depending on how much total Suboxone you ended up having to take on Day 1, take 75% of the dose you took on Day 1. Like if you only took 1 mg, that would be 0.75mg.
DAY 3: About 75% of Day 2. So if you took 0.75mg, take 0.5mg (75% would actually be 0.56 but just round it so it's easier to measure)
DAY 4: About 50% of Day 3. So if you took 0.5mg, take 0.25mg
DAY 5: Same as Day 4. So if you took 0.25mg, take 0.25mg again
DAY 6: Take nothing (so that you are going 48hrs between doses instead of 24hrs)
DAY 7: Same as Day 5. If you took 0.25mg, take 0.25mg again
DAY 8: Take nothing.
(optional) DAY 9: Either take nothing of take a very small amount, if you can measure that small, like 0.1g.
Notes: of course the actual dosages would be adapted depending on how much you took on Day 1. You can also try to space your doses out by more than 24 hrs sooner if you feel able to. I would not take it more frequently than every 24 hrs as this is just going to raise your tolerance and make your tapering and withdrawal harder.

If you took 2mg on Day 1, then you could do the following:

DAY 1: 2mg.
DAY 2: 75% of the dose you took on Day 1 = 1.5mg.
DAY 3: About 75% of Day 2 = rounded to 1mg
DAY 4: About 50% of Day 3 = 0.5mg
DAY 5: About 50% of Day 4 = 0.25mg
DAY 6:Same as Day 5 = 0.25mg
DAY 7: Take nothing.
DAY 8: Same as Day 6 = 0.25mg again
DAY 9: Take nothing.
(optional) DAY 10: Either take nothing of take a very small amount, if you can measure that small, like 0.1g.
Note: This would add an extra day to your taper, since you were at a higher starting dose. You want to be down to at least 0.25 or lower before going to nothing.

 

[BiggDirty01]

Hello, i’ve been lurking around here for a couple months now – i’ve gotten some really valuable information abt harm reduction, potentiation, etc. I’m hoping to get some advice abt suboxone, and using it for a rapid taper off opiates. I have been using oxycodone for almost 6 years now (it all started with valid health reasons). I average abt 150-200mg oxycodone per day (a large portion is prescribed, but i also supplement as my script is no longer adequate). I know it’s not a huge habit, compared to what i have heard from others, but it’s big enough for little ol’ me (i’m 105 lbs). i cwe almost everything, keeping my liver safe, but it takes at least 50mg just for me to get out of bed in the morning. It’s ur typical story – no more euphoria, and using just to keep w/d’s at bay. i have absolutely no ability to taper, so i’m going to have to cold turkey. I know i will always be reliant on pain medication, but i need to take a break for some time (at least a few weeks, but hoping for a few months) - to reduce my dependence, to keep my tolerance down (that, and my supplier dried up!), so i can use responsibly and manage 2 chronic pain conditions.

Now – i’ve booked 4 days off work (friday and monday), so i can get over the worst of it without having to be at work. There is absolutely no way i can manage at work, given the type of work i do. I’ve got the following aids to help me through, but just wanted to get some feedback. It may be overkill, but i’ve got to be able to function on tuesday. When i go into w/d’s i am useless - i am paralyzed by anxiety and can’t think logically, i get creepy-crawly disgusting feeling skin, twitchy RLS, cascading drenches of sweat, knees that ache like i’ve got horrible arthritis, and incurable insomnia. Tho i am well aware of what i am in for, and i totally deserve it bc of my reckless behaviour, i want to be able to go back to work only dealing with the mental part of it - even tho that can be the worst part...ah, the dreaded PAWS! I’ve read that i should expect 1 month of PAWS for every year of use...so it looks like i’ve sentenced myself to potentially 6mos of mental misery and fatigue...but i do have a plan, not just for acute w/d’s, but also the dreaded PAWS

Here’s some of the ammo in my arsenal, and my plan. I have done a ton of research, and will report back as to how i fared, and document what was used (dosage, frequency, etc). I’ve done countless hours of research, so i’ve got an extensive list of potential aids (i will post them all in a new thread, as it also includes a desciption for why certain things work, reading suggestion links, etc, that’s way too long to post here). But any feedback or advice beforehand would be much appreciated.

Meds (* denotes a prescription medication):
-*topiramate (i have also have chronic migraines) – but i read that this nmda antagonist can be useful in w/d’s
-*buscopan – if needed, i also suffer from ibs
-*pantoprazole magnesium – for acid reflux
-*seroquel – i can get some of this to help me sleep, but have some concerns bc i don’t know enough abt it, and how it affects serotonin and dopamine – i imagine that reducing serotonin or dopamine would make u more depressed? And depression is a huge problem for me when i stop opiate use.
-dxm gel caps (OTC) – is this just redundant bc of the topiramate, or should i use both?
-loperamide (OTC) – read that generous amts of this can be helpful (this won’t stretch out the w/d’s will it?)
-dimenhydrinate or diphenhydrinate (OTC) – for sleep aid


Vitamins & Supplements:
-black cumin seed oil (nigella sativa) – i’ve read this can also help w/d’s, i also take to aid in potentiation
-free form amino acids – to help rebuild my defunct neurotransmitters – contains only l-isomers of lysine, leucine, histidine, valine, isoleucine, methionine, threonine, glutamic acid, glycine, proline, aspartic acid, citrulline, cystine, arginine, cysteine, tyrosine, alanine, glutamine, serine, asparagines)
-vitamin C – 2000mg/day, split doses
-liquid vitamin b complex – 1 -2 droppers/day
-calcium/magnesium – 500mg/day
-herbal insomnia formula – contains hops, valerian root, skullcap, passionflower, wild lettuce leaf
-NAC – for liver detoxificiation (i also take this daily, for the odd time when i don’t CWE)
-DLPA – taken daily already, for increased analgesia effects of medication, also useful for pain relief
-Hyland’s Restful Legs formula- for RLS, PRN basis
-Detox supplement (daytime formula contains l-tyrosine, bilberry, green tea extract; nitetime formula contains hops, skullcap, lemon balm, l-5htp)
-sage and/or black cohosh – for sweating (only if i need to be presentable, as i want to sweat it all out as fast as i can!)
-also have 500mg l-glutamine tabs, 500mg acetyl l-carnitine tabs,
-rhodiola rosea – adrenal support, to assist in PAWS
-maximum potency multivitamin & mineral tabs
-melatonin w/ l-theanine & 5htp – sleep aid

Substitutes (to be used in case of unbearable suffering):
-kratom – 10mg bali, 10mg red borneo (regular, powdered leaf, but can also pick up a 15X or 30X at the local smoke shop if i get desperate, but it’s pretty pricey)– i’ve only used this in cases where my DOC was not available, as it does not produce euphoria for me, but can help with w/d’s. Will toss-n-wash a tablespoon here and there on PRN basis
-suboxone – 2 or 3 tabs – not certain if i will be getting it, but it’s a possibility
-codeine – i have access, but find i have a very bad histamine reaction if i take it in excess of 200mg, so this will only be used in a dire situation (and will be taken with Benadryl to prevent burning, flushing skin)

Other/Misc:
-i have access to a sauna at my gym, so i’m hoping to use it to help speed up the detox with lots of extra sweating
-ear acupuncture – i read this helps release endorphins, and can make u feel better
-walking/light exercise – i plan on getting out for walks whenever possible, i usually am useless and can’t get anything done, but i am going to try to will myself to do some walking, perhaps at night, when it is a bit cooler out
-masturbation – my sex drive goes through the roof while in w/d’s, and masturbation gives me like 5seconds of relief...so as often as possible!
-meal replacement shakes – i have no appetite and can’t eat in w/d’s, so i’ve stocked up on these
-laughter – even if fake! I have a bunch of funny movies, recorded episodes of ridiculousness, stand-up comedy, even have laugh tracks on my itunes
-inspirational and entertaining reading
-tonic water – it has quinine, which can help with RLS


Now, THE MOST IMPORTANT QUESTION!!!!
USING SUBOXONE (provided I can get some)–
1. can i use the suboxone once i get into heavy withdrawals without draggin them out? I normally start getting symptoms around the 6hr mark bc i dose so frequently – stupid i know, but if i wait until the 24hr mark, i should be ok, right? I am taking percs only, so given the half-life, this is probably safe. i am wondering tho, i only plan on using a couple, small doses – mb 2mg first dose, then 1 mg 12-24hrs later, then 0.5mg 12-24hrs later, then 0.25 12-24hrs later, then ½ that every 12-24hrs forward, but for no longer than 3 or 4 days. If i do this, will my w/d’s last longer than 4 days (ie, not truly beginning until i am done the subs), or will it speed up with w/d?
2. Given my current level of use (150-200mg/day), how much suboxone would be an adequate dose to start with? Should i start with 2mg and titrate up if i need more? Or is it better to start with less than that (1mg or .5mg)?
3. Will using the suboxone help decrease my tolerance? If i take suboxone as part of a rapid taper, then take a break for a couple weeks, do you think this will have a significant impact on my tolerance? I plan on trying to return to the lowest possible dose, and always using dxm to keep my tolerance in check
Other Questions:
4. Have I missed anything? Is there anything you would change (remove, add?)
5. Seroquel – any info, opinions on how this affects brain chemistry is much appreciated.

Thanks for reading for my lengthy post. Any and all feedback is welcomed and appreciated.

First off....PERCS 150-200mg...man that is a lot of extra work. Have you never had access to the 30mg oxycodones?

Ok, first off terrific information here...hope no offense but I can sense the fellow add personality in the level of definition in your "preface" LOL.

The supplements may be going overboard but that would be more along the lines of overboard unless you were already pretty familiar with using them, which I can tell you most certainly are.

Suboxone: less is more. Don't take it from just me, there are TONS of info here on BL. No bigger reason why BL exists then to facilitate information like this. Expect a detox period of 3-5 days acute, 5-7 transition to mostly mental symptoms.

I wouldn't mess around with DXM at any real doses (60mg p.o.) Lyrica would be a far better medication to help manage your symptoms. Seroquel, stick to 50-75mg and only increase at your own pace (certain doses can leave you 'quillin' as I came to know it in rehab, mostly involved some kinda munchies and ambien like high.

PAWS is animal. You've been using 6 years? Pain management (me too) ? It is far more than understanding than some extra reading. You are going to want to get in to some kind of support group, be it 12 step, in patient treatment, or an intensive outpatient treatment. But you cannot do it on your own. And the others that white knuckle it have white hair on their knuckle from the stress of it all (opiate addiction) without some kind of formal outlet.

PM me if you want to talk further, as I have some huge PM issues and have been on pain meds for many years due to my spinal injuries.

 

[jiveturkey11]

thanks everyone for all of your replies - you've def got me pegged - not in a bad way tho, i know what i am. it's disgusting tho, i wrote up all that stuff, and lay around paralyzed by my w/d's...i wasn't able to get any subs, and i'm having too much of a pity party to even try to do anything to make myself feel better. yesterday i went a little crazy, reasoning that i would be giving it up today - boy, am i sorry!!! i did about 200mg (at 11pm, aside from my daytime doses totalling 150mg) before running out of leads last night. i slept until noon, but woke in minor w/d's. i just took 6 lopes, so i hope it makes me minimally functional (so i can least go pick up my mail, where there shoudl be some kratom waiting for me)

like don said, my w/d's trigger horrible anxiety, that leaves me panicked and freaking out! i am already feeling myself cracking and wanna resort to starting the hunt again

@biggdirty - i actually prefer to cwe percs bc the oxy's have that horrible polymer in them! i have IC, so i have to be careful bc many things increase pain. that, and tbh, i don't get anything from the oxy's

 

[vikenRedbull]

wow if you can make it thru that amount youve been doing for that long, it would be an impressive feat. Please update us on how its going.

btw i wouldnt do the laughtrack thing, id probably cobain myself with how bad that would be in my ears during this.

 

[jiveturkey11]

well, here's the update - not too impressive, but much better than i anticipated! i ended up taking 10lopes, and was able to fall asleep for almost 2 hours, before i woke again in agony. i immediately choked down abt 10g kratoms (didn't measure, just dumped in a bowl of yogurt). it let me function enough to shower and get dressed. the only friend who knows what i am going thru called me to check on me...and being the manipulative addict i am, i told him how horrible i was feeling, and he gave in, giving me 4 percs. i knew i shouldn't have done it, but i knew that that's all there was (meaning i couldn't go and get 50 from him). i ate them all at once! i feel almost normal again - but still physically and mentally exhausted. please don't bash my friend - he really only has the best intentions and doesn't want to see me suffer - and to go from 200mg on a daily basis (and having an out-of-control, over-indulgent going away party last nite) down to just 20mg today, i still think that's some progress. he already let me know me that i can no longer come running to him, but if i am in dire straits and can't function, he will give me 2 or 3 here or there (as in once a day, when desperately needed), but he will NEVER give me more than that to have in my possession to take whenever i feel like it. i know he has some guilt over the whole thing, as he feels i never would have spiralled out of control without the access i discovered through him, so he feels it's his responsibility to make sure i don't go overboard and continue in my self-destruction. i know it sounds ridiculous, having my friend dole them out to control me, but i can't help but agree, because i can't seem to do it myself. and, i know how persuasive i can be - not trying to sound arrogant - but as an attractive female, it's often easy to get a guy to feel sorry for you. now, i don't manipulate things in any sort of sexual way or anything, but a few tears - so i can't really blame him. i am incredibly thankful tho - that i have a friend who is willing to put up with my addicty bullshit - and put up with the irritation of giving me 2 or 3 when i am abt to lose my mind. and, despite my addicty behaviour - i WANT out, so i will not manipulate our friendship to allow the abuse cycle to continue. furthermore, i do not want to ruin our friendship....he's even said that to take the leap from where i was is commendable, but depsite my claims that i deserve to suffer to teach myself a lesson, he keeps reminding me how good of a person i am, and that i don't deserve to suffer. as embarrassing as it is to have my friend control my taper for me, i am grateful because he is saving me from self-destruction and agony (even if it is only 4 or 5 days of it).

and i know it sounds like i am just rationalizing it all, but at the end of the day, i still have 2 legitimate chronic pain conditions, so i do still have to medicate (just not in recreational amts) to maintain a quality of life. i do not want to go off work on disability - i take pride in working hard and all the things i've accomplished in life. i do have a lot of self-improvement to work on, and have to learn to respect opiates as they are intended - to get relief, not get high. but honestly, i am thankful for my friend - because of his promise to literally control my usage, i don't feel the urge to go out and score a bunch bc the thought of not having access to any sends me into a panic. bc i know that, when i reach the lowest point, and feel i can't take it anymore, he will save me - but only a tiny amt, and only 1 visit is allowed per day. i cannot manipulate this relationship and risk ruining our friendship. if i drive him crazy and harass him, he may just decide our friendship is not worth it to him.

so - i will continue to rely on lopes and kratom to keep w/d's at bay. i am not concerned abt getting hooked on kratom - like lopes it just keeps the w/d's in check, there is no euphoria, and it is horrible stuff to have to choke down! and i know, if i take too much, i get sick anyway. so i think this combo, with a couple from my friend when i can't take it anymore - i think i am on the right path. it will be so nice to not have my day revolved around it, to be like other people in the world - tho i do wonder, what exactly do other people do with their days? i have been doing this for too many years so it's going to be a big adjustment to fill this time! what do you usually do after u have kicked? how do u fill your time?

 

[jiveturkey11]

wow if you can make it thru that amount youve been doing for that long, it would be an impressive feat. Please update us on how its going.

btw i wouldnt do the laughtrack thing, id probably cobain myself with how bad that would be in my ears during this.

haven't attempted it yet, but saw a documentary once on laughter therapy - that's where the idea came from.

i am willing to do pretty much anything to get back to normal, or to reduce my suffering in any way possible. i know my habit doesn't really compare to what other's have managed to kick - even tho my friend thinks that bc of my size (105lb female), even tho we take similar amts, that my body doesn't require as much to get back to baseline as his (he's abt 250lbs) - i am believer that a tolerance is a tolerance (ie. my brain is the same size as someone else's). i think initially (before tolerances build up) the same dose would affect ppl differently, but once a tolerance exists, it completely changes the game

 

[jiveturkey11]

Your plan sounds solid and to be quite honest, I really feel like saving this and using as a template for my own problems and addiction.

I have been recently stocking up on a few of the necessary supplies and I need to get before attempting to take this on, as we all know the longer the harder.

For me, I've got a lot of anxiety and keep running back to the medication to avoid WDs because they freak me out everytime.

I will eventually find the right time and setting to tackle my own.

I wish you positivity and best of luck, You Jive Ass Turkey

we sound like the same person! since you're in canada, you do have the ability to go pick up a bottle of T1's, and CWE in case of emergency. i used to do that, before my tolerance was too high - if i ran out, or was trying to get off the percs, i would simply cwe 25 or 30 of those to be functionable (i think i made that word up!) for the day.

 

[Kindbudz]

I just wanted to touch and go in depth on the use of Lyrica here for WD. If you want an expert on the med, look no further than your good buddy Kindbudz. You can PM me about it or look to my future threads on the medicine, it's use, abuse, and options for taking it other than oral. NEVER use this IV for starters tho I NEED you to know this. It's not soluble in water like opiates, and it will GREATLY harm your body to do so. It's great for the first night of your withdrawal. I say FIRST night only because you'll notice that the next day you take it unless you wait 36 hours, it will not have NEAR the same effect taken again and you will be right back to feeling those undescribable and horrid body night restlessness. Usually 100-300MG will do the trick. Frankly, if you have none in your system, any dose is good to feel the effects. Any more than that, and it does nothing more for you as it caps through the liver cycles and any excess is simply destroyed and your CSF cannot facilitate any further use.

MAKE SURE TO NOTE: It takes up to 3 hours for the Lyrica to start working completely! (And that's just for the recreational and soothing 'feelings' of it.) So just give it time, as you might even forget you took it until all of a sudden you gradually feel the relaxation and mood improvement. If you want to take it for actual neuralgia, you have to give it a week or more to fully and stably ease your nerve pain.

ALSO NOTE PLEASE!!!!!! ::::: I have taken it for 5 years now for actual neuralgic pain but had started first as just wanting to take it to extend and potentiate my narcotics. I've used it up to the point where now all I want to do is get off of it. Sure it's great for my pain, but it's DAMN expensive. And I'll tell you now. Lyrica is THE HARDEST MEDICINE to be free from. It DOES have withdrawals, and after going through opiate withdrawal myself after 2 years of IV use of H, OC, Morphine, Dilaudid, etc etc I'll tell you opiate withdrawal was a walk in the park compared to this. It's not just insomnia, restlesness, and discomfort. It has such a psychological withdrawal that you can't even function or even have the desire to do anything but lay in bed in mysery and woe. It mimics opiate withdrawal, but there's such a horrid psychological withdrawal associated with it I cannot even begin to tell you how trapped I am in fear of trying to stop it. Also, the withdrawal from Lyrica can last up to a month before you can start to try and feel normal. Don't believe what you may read other places or from online resources, it's all placed there by the pharma company to keep it on the market and make people try it without fear of the repricussion accociated. There's so much more to say with regards to Lyrcia... and as soon as I can find a way to post a new thread... I'll elaborate as your expert about the drug from recrational use, opiate wtihdrawal ease, it's own addictive properties, and opiate potentiation. Hope this helps clear up some things about it's use for withdrawal. But to help more, look for my thread focused on the medicine itself.

 

[vikenRedbull]

How is it going? I'm sure you may be in or just starting to maybe get thru the worst of it now, unless you've taken more percs. I'm currently in hour 40 or so, can't wait for tonight! (sarcastic) lol

 

[BiggDirty01]

. i know he has some guilt over the whole thing, as he feels i never would have spiralled out of control without the access i discovered through him, so he feels it's his responsibility to make sure i don't go overboard and continue in my self-destruction. i know it sounds ridiculous, having my friend dole them out to control me, but i can't help but agree, because i can't seem to do it myself. and, i know how persuasive i can be - not trying to sound arrogant - but as an attractive female, it's often easy to get a guy to feel sorry for you. now, i don't manipulate things in any sort of sexual way or anything, but a few tears - so i can't really blame him. i am incredibly thankful tho - that i have a friend who is willing to put up with my addicty bullshit - and put up with the irritation of giving me 2 or 3 when i am abt to lose my mind. and, despite my addicty behaviour - i WANT out, so i will not manipulate our friendship to allow the abuse cycle to continue. furthermore, i do not want to ruin our friendship....he's even said that to take the leap from where i was is commendable, but depsite my claims that i deserve to suffer to teach myself a lesson, he keeps reminding me how good of a person i am, and that i don't deserve to suffer. as embarrassing as it is to have my friend control my taper for me, i am grateful because he is saving me from self-destruction and agony (even if it is only 4 or 5 days of it).

and i know it sounds like i am just rationalizing it all, but at the end of the day, i still have 2 legitimate chronic pain conditions, so i do still have to medicate (just not in recreational amts) to maintain a quality of life. i do not want to go off work on disability - i take pride in working hard and all the things i've accomplished in life. i do have a lot of self-improvement to work on, and have to learn to respect opiates as they are intended - to get relief, not get high. but honestly, i am thankful for my friend - because of his promise to literally control my usage, i don't feel the urge to go out and score a bunch bc the thought of not having access to any sends me into a panic. bc i know that, when i reach the lowest point, and feel i can't take it anymore, he will save me - but only a tiny amt, and only 1 visit is allowed per day. i cannot manipulate this relationship and risk ruining our friendship. if i drive him crazy and harass him, he may just decide our friendship is not worth it to him.

LOL, I give you a lot of credit for giving the insider info I've pretty much assumed to be the truth, especially here in L.A. : hot girls can manipulate guys into getting them whatever substance they want. Its just true, and I think it is awesome you are honest enough to admit it.

Be careful on relying on someone else to support/maintain your taper or sobriety. It is a personal responsibility and addiction is a disease of the body, mind and soul of YOU, and can only be addressed and treated by YOU.

As a fellow chronic pain patient, I understand your rationalizing as far as pain goes. If you are serious about not using pain medication, you have to have a plan to deal with the pain in another way. What are your plans for this? I know for me, as far as having my spine fused, I was introduced into yoga with meditation in rehab. For a 6'4 240lb guy I thought that yoga was something that chicks and MILFs did in L.A. and now that I had incredible success with it until I reinjured my back recently, I literally cannot wait to get back to it. Consider it, along with any non-Western medicinal approaches, NSAIDS, accupuncture, accupressure, chiropractor, muscle relaxers, dietary supplements, tylenol (it can really work when the opiates clear out of your system), and again LYRICA....it is an incredible drug for me and helps so much with nerve pains while providing a relaxing buzz at higher doses.

All in all, you seem to have a solid plan. You seem very high strung and goal oriented, but remember that addiction does not discriminate between the dumb and intelligent, the privileged or the poor, or the lazy versus dedicated. The approach and treatment of addiction is pretty much always the same across the vast span of persons and drugs. Keep an open mind, be willing to take advice and yuo have a great shot at making it out to the other side and taming the beast that is addiction.

GOOD LUCK!

 

[vikenRedbull]

Jive bird, how are you!?! we havent heard from you in a couple few days.. im hoping you didnt give in.. give us an update on how things are. remember we are on your side no matter what.

 

[jiveturkey11]

Jive bird, how are you!?! we havent heard from you in a couple few days.. im hoping you didnt give in.. give us an update on how things are. remember we are on your side no matter what.

hey viken! i'm hanging in there! tbh - i've have a few slips over the last week or so, but nothing compared to old habits. i suppose it's a good thing that my contacts have mostly dried up -that, and the recent price increases are way outside my limits (tho, a few weeks ago, i would've paid nearly anything to feel better, i am now at a point where i can mentally and physically handle the w/d's that come from my drastically reduced habit, compared to how i used to feel when w/ding - either that, or i'm just becoming accustomed to the w/d's, and they r not as scary anymore!). it's sad, but locking myself in my room and being anti-social has stopped my from hunting like a feign!

i have been pretty miserable and worthless lately - i don't seem to have the motivation to do much of anything lately. everything feels like a chore - eating, bathing, even getting up to go to the washroom! i have literally been living for those few moments of normalcy when i get to eat a few percs - pitiful, huh? my doctor has referred me to a specialist, so i am hoping that the specialist will be able to offer something that lets me manage my pain in a safe way. and i am honestly not just trying to score pain meds - i am looking for something/anything that will help me function and manage pain. something that has no recreational value, so i won't be tempted kindbudz mentioned lyrica, i don't think that will be recommended, but anything that helps will be tried at this point. i tried to talk to my doctor about getting a TENS unit, but he pretty much told me it was a waste of money....very discouraging.

i am just trying to stay sane - w/d's give me horrible anxiety, which causes horrendous pain flares, then i can't think of anything but wanting to score - very depressing! biggdirty has me pegged - i am VERY high strung and goal-oriented i am irrationally compelled to do everything for everyone, always over-extending myself and adding fuel to the fire. i think that part of me (at least the stubbornness), has been helpful in getting better when i am in my weaker moments. i am still using the occasional perc, choking down kratom here and there, even cwe'ing some t1's for the real bad moments, but overall i have drastically reduced my usage. i suppose you could call it a ghetto taper of sorts - i use the kratom, t1's and even lopes to keep the symptoms down so i can work and be relatively functional. i know its dragging things out, but it seems to be the only thing that stops me from losing my mind some days.

on the 2nd, u said u were heading into hr40 - how r u doing? were u also going CT? kinda funny, i chose the name jiveturkey pretty randomly, not deliberately connecting to the irrational behavior of constant CT's, but the name kinda fits now wasn't until u called me a jive ass turkey did i make the connection anyway, i hope u r feeling strong and doing well.

 

[DooMMooD]

You missed 1 VERY CRUCIAL PART: Get some outside help too. Tell someone and have someone to call if you feel like using.

Addiction likes to get you alone and isolated. That way when youre weak it strikes, and instead of having help you will give in.

Get a support system, otherwise this plan will be for naught. You will most likely have cravings/temptations/be in bad situations and if you have no one to help you through it....you are statistically going to use again. Get some help man, you cannot do it on your own. You will at some point find an excuse to take "just one more pill today" or "I'll start tapering tomorrow", if you dont have an outside party looking out for you. And then youre back to square 1.

If you yourself admit you have issues controlling your usage you will still have those same problems after your suboxone taper. Youre hoping for a few months break (or reduction) but realistically expecting weeks; I am saying you most likely will not get that far if all you intend to do is take suboxone/vitamins/meds for immediate W/D or long term ones. An addict with piles of pills will not stick to their reduction plan for long, and if I am understanding correctly this is the position youre in (prescriptions from docs).

Aside from that the taper plan itself sounds good. Just as I said I feel you are worrying too much about the immediate withdrawals and effects from that, and not the long term keeping your usage down. Long term plans involve help from the outside and things besides chemicals/vitamins.