Is heroin really that difficult to get off?

[Mycotheologist]

I've known plenty of addicts so I know how severe cold turkey withdrawals from heavy use are but it seems quite obvious that it is not the addiction itself that makes it impossible for them to get off it, its the lifestyle and the way things are set up. Firstly, with a taper plan, the acute withdrawal can be circumvented. Secondly, there are plenty of non opioid drugs which work wonders for alleviating w/d symptoms such as gabapentin, benzodiazepines, baclofen etc. None of these 3 drugs exhibit cross tolerance between each other so it would be very easy to avoid getting addicted to them during the detox process. Thirdly, there is ibogaine. From what I've read, a single high dose of ibogaine completely overrides opioid withdrawal (and other drugs) and even helps with psychological addiction. As for the lifestyle aspect, many people have neurochemical imbalances and hard lives and thus, can't function properly without self medication. This forces them to adopt an undesirable lifestyle, from which it is very difficult to get out of and in which, they are severely limited by the fact that they can barely afford to survive, let alone self medicate so they are constantly living from day to day and have no time to think about anything else, let alone plan for the future and come up with a way to make life better for themselves. I think the free heroin program in Zurich is a brilliant idea because it partially sets addicts free from these snares.

I believe we are in a primitive paradigm, some of us are venturing into a new paradigm, but the majority of people are stuck in the old one which is why drug users must suffer so greatly in this society. Things will only change when the masses follow us into this new paradigm. I believe Ron Paul is actually in this new paradigm so I hope to God for Americans sake (and the world for that matter since USA influences all other countries) that he gets elected. I have good intuition when it comes to these things. I knew that Obama would not change anything for the better and that he would be elected simply because hes black (Americans wanted change, but sadly they opted for superficial change, rather than the real change Ron Paul would have brought). Ron Paul on the other hand is real.

 

[OxycoDrone]

For one, you are partially correct. Heroin (or any other addiction) is not merely the physical dependence, there is a huge psychological issue that has to be dealt with and everyone deals with that differently. Of course you can dope yourself up on benzos and get through the initial sickness but then most people have a gaping hole in their lives that heroin filled that has to be replaced with healthier activity. Also everyone has different reasons for use, and addiction, and so no two cases are exactly the same. Regarding ibogaine, it's true that for some people that a high-dose ibogaine treatment (Not just the drug, but the treatment by professionals that goes with it) can really help both physical and psychological addiction but it's not a panacea and it doesn't work for everyone. People shouldn't rely on it as the be-all and end-all of addiction treatment and disregard other methods.

I'm not quite sure what your point about Ron Paul is, but I know there's a lot of buzz about him, but you have to remember that he's a politician. Other than your self-professed intuition you have no real idea of what he will do if/when elected and what people don't realise is that the President is just one man. Because of the endless bureaucracy in high-tier politics the power he has is not limitless and despite the best intentions it is hard to facilitate a paradigm shift when there is so much opposition throughout the system. I think people are putting too much faith in the promises of a conservative politician and are being blinded my clever campaigning and buzzwords. But that's another story.

Anyway, was there a particular question you wanted answered or just felt like sharing your wisdom on heroin withdrawal? Have you ever been an addict, out of interest?

-OCD

 

[Mycotheologist]

Of course you can dope yourself up on benzos and get through the initial sickness but then most people have a gaping hole in their lives that heroin filled that has to be replaced with healthier activity.

Yeah, thats what a lot of non drug users don't seem to understand. They think that quitting the drug is the hard part and that everything will be magically better once they're off the drug. As you say, the user is left with a gaping hole. I believe that hypnotherapy is an excellent method of filling that hole. Its been empirically proven that any drug state you have experienced, can be replicated with hypnosis. I found an abstract on this, I'm going to just buy the full article because people need to know about this.

Also everyone has different reasons for use, and addiction, and so no two cases are exactly the same. Regarding ibogaine, it's true that for some people that a high-dose ibogaine treatment (Not just the drug, but the treatment by professionals that goes with it) can really help both physical and psychological addiction but it's not a panacea and it doesn't work for everyone. People shouldn't rely on it as the be-all and end-all of addiction treatment and disregard other methods.

Very true. I also agree with you that people shouldn't rely on ibogaine, or any one single method as the be-all and end-all to addiction treatment. The magic happens when you combine all the tools at your disposal. This principle extends into all aspects of life.

I'm not quite sure what your point about Ron Paul is, but I know there's a lot of buzz about him, but you have to remember that he's a politician. Other than your self-professed intuition you have no real idea of what he will do if/when elected and what people don't realise is that the President is just one man. Because of the endless bureaucracy in high-tier politics the power he has is not limitless and despite the best intentions it is hard to facilitate a paradigm shift when there is so much opposition throughout the system. I think people are putting too much faith in the promises of a conservative politician and are being blinded my clever campaigning and buzzwords. But that's another story.

He is the first politician that I would actually willingly vote for. Up until then, my decision would always be none of the above. You're probably right though, regardless of what he says, he will be just another puppet. The people you see aren't the ones with the power. Its the people behind the stages pulling the strings.

Anyway, was there a particular question you wanted answered or just felt like sharing your wisdom on heroin withdrawal? Have you ever been an addict, out of interest?

-OCD

Not to heroin, only to oxycodone and it wasn't a very extreme withdrawal. I didn't know that drugs like gabapentin and benzos alleviate withdrawal symptoms at the time so I just did it cold turkey.

 

[OxycoDrone]

Yeah, thats what a lot of non drug users don't seem to understand. They think that quitting the drug is the hard part and that everything will be magically better once they're off the drug. As you say, the user is left with a gaping hole. I believe that hypnotherapy is an excellent method of filling that hole. Its been empirically proven that any drug state you have experienced, can be replicated with hypnosis. I found an abstract on this, I'm going to just buy the full article because people need to know about this.

I've never tried hypnotherapy. I know no one in my area that does it, but mostly it's because I'm a skeptic. While I'm aware that hypnotherapy isn't all "you are getting veeeeeeery sleepy" and such there's a certain stigma to it, if you know what I mean, that just cries out "Bullshit" to me. Not that I don't think there are benefits, but it's not something I have explored personally.

Very true. I also agree with you that people shouldn't rely on ibogaine, or any one single method as the be-all and end-all to addiction treatment. The magic happens when you combine all the tools at your disposal. This principle extends into all aspects of life.

Definitely. This is something that (mostly new addicts) fail to understand. Detox and recovery are lifetime battles. Relapse is plentiful and nearly no one kicks an addiction on their first try. Especially not a long one. Ibogaine definitely can be effective, and my friend swears it saved his life, and brought him off methadone with one treatment but I've also had friends who it did nothing for and they were out of pocket and really depressed because their "magic bullet" didn't work. I feel it works best if it's not your only option and if you have a backup plan and other aspects of your treatment aswell.

He is the first politician that I would actually willingly vote for. Up until then, my decision would always be none of the above. You're probably right though, regardless of what he says, he will be just another puppet. The people you see aren't the ones with the power. Its the people behind the stages pulling the strings.

I also get a good feeling from him, don't get me wrong, but politics is a tricky business and it's all a few convoluted and flawed system. Even the most well meaning politician can become jaded when they realize that the good they hoped to do is negated my all the bullshit. Are you from the US? I'm very glad I'm not, but Americans in general get a bad rep just because the higher ups are useless.

Not to heroin, only to oxycodone and it wasn't a very extreme withdrawal. I didn't know that drugs like gabapentin and benzos alleviate withdrawal symptoms at the time so I just did it cold turkey.

I'm very happy you got out early. I've battled my Oxycodone addiction for 3-4 years now and have had to go on methadone maintenance because I simply can't stay off for longer than a few weeks. Oxy withdrawal is nasty but the worst is over within a week. Heroin is slightly longer but not quite as ruthless, so I'm told.

I'm about to go to bed, early morning for me and it's 1:41am already, but it was nice to meet you. Send me a friend request if you like, and if you ever feel like shit and need someone to talk to, send me a PM. I'm always happy to help anyone who needs it.

Stay safe,
-OCD

 

[i against i]

Its been empirically proven that any drug state you have experienced, can be replicated with hypnosis. I found an abstract on this, I'm going to just buy the full article because people need to know about this.

how can this be true at all? how could the hynotherapist replicated the hundreds of different drugs unique effects and nuances? how could they create an oxy high vs. a heroin high, 2c-b vs LSD? this makes no sense.

 

[Opanaking]

It's a slippery slope using benzo's for withdrawal. Also not everyone has the option of going to a Dr.

I do agree that benzo's and nuerontin really ease the symptoms.

The toughest problem for me with opiate withdrawal is the anxiety and insomnia I get. If you get used to getting benzo's there is a chance you can get hooked. Once you do you gotta spend a lot of time and effort getting off them. I would say neurontin is really good because it helps kill the pain and will help you sleep without causing dependency issues.

But again, some people dont have the option of getting meds.

 

[shimazu]

already been said but its not the WD stage but the months after where many slip up.

oh ill just use this weekened and thats it

turns into every weekened

turns into every 3 days

you get my point

 

[Mycotheologist]

I've never tried hypnotherapy. I know no one in my area that does it, but mostly it's because I'm a skeptic. While I'm aware that hypnotherapy isn't all "you are getting veeeeeeery sleepy" and such there's a certain stigma to it, if you know what I mean, that just cries out "Bullshit" to me. Not that I don't think there are benefits, but it's not something I have explored personally.

I know exactly what you mean. I was in the same place before I started researching hypnosis heavily. Like I said, its a paradigm. We've been bred into this paradigm in which drugs are the only way to produce these states. Hypnotherapists do not live in the same paradigm. You'll never see a hypnotherapist smoking, drinking, taking painkillers or any other drugs for that matter for one simple reason. Anything that a drug can do, can be done with hypnosis. The receptors are already in place and every receptor has a number of ligands that are intended for it. The actual states that recreational drug users go for are not physiological though. The physiological aspects are often side effects of the drug. i.e. the way opioids give you constipation and induce respiratory depression. These physiological changes aren't responsible for the actual high the drug gives so with hypnosis, they can be omitted. Problem is, when you use hypnotic suggestion to replicate the effect of a drug, it will replicate the effect in its totality so it will induce all the side effects too.

 

[Captain.Heroin]

It is easy to quit using heroin, it's hard to not relapse.

 

[badfish45]

^ that's the truth.

Also everyone has different reasons for use, and addiction, and so no two cases are exactly the same.

I think this is the main point. Everyone has a different life, and people use drugs for different reasons. Some use it recreationally, some use it to escape their woes, while some people are stuck with the fact that it's the only way that they can make it through the day. Some people are pressed in a position where quitting could jeopardize their jobs or personal lives. But in reality it's only as hard as you make it out to be. It depends on what kind of a person you are and how strong willed you are to be able to avoid a relapse.

 

[Libby]

I've never done opiates so I don't really know what I'm talking about, but I always thought just locking the person in a room for a month or so and it will be hell sure but then it will be over and normal again, which when you compare it to a lifetime of severe drug addition and the related problems doesn't seem bad at all.. But that's just the physical addiction. What do you do about the psychological addiction? The psychological addiction is what makes people relapse, the silent half is always the deadlier..

But then maybe if you did just lock them in a room, no tapering, no other pharmacueticals to ease the discomfort, maybe it was just pure pain and hell, they would be less inclined to ever relapse because they would never want to go through all that again, and no-one wants to be an addict for the rest of their lives.

Edit: Oh no, I am the only one who thinks suffering is good for you aren't I? I just realised... Ok no more opinions from me then.

 

[badfish45]

^ That's called jail, and a lot of people who are addicts go through that unwillingly and basically just wait until they get out so they can get high again. That just seems like a rather inefficient method.

 

[OxycoDrone]

^ That's called jail, and a lot of people who are addicts go through that unwillingly and basically just wait until they get out so they can get high again. That just seems like a rather inefficient method.

It is. 4 hours after my release from jail I was sitting in a car shooting up an OC80.

 

[badfish45]

Yeah it's strange, and almost counterproductive, because it's almost a motivation to get high because it's something you have to look forward to.

 

[Elkat13]

Quitting Heroin was the hardest thing I've ever been through in my life - including ending years and years on meth. I'm lucky enough to be with someone now who is trying to makes it easier and knows that I never want to quit for good.

 

[Libby]

^ That's called jail, and a lot of people who are addicts go through that unwillingly and basically just wait until they get out so they can get high again. That just seems like a rather inefficient method.

I didn't mean Jail, obviously if it isn't consentual it isn't going to work. Anyway no-one has the right to govern what you do to your own body other than you. It is disgusting that drugs are illegal.
I meant like if you ask someone who really cares about you to help you like your mum or something, whoever you have in your life close enough to do this for you, to lock you in your bedroom, bring you food and whatever etc. Or if rehab facilities didn't give you meds.

 

[junkieman412]

If it was easy to get off of 80 percent of us (lol guesstimate) wouldn't die or end up on maintenance programs. I read your post but its such a no brainer. It isn't completely physical but those without those predisplsitions and addict behaviors can still become addicts. That needle is a motherfucker too.
I have a really hard time believing in ibogaine although pretty much any effective method of treatment basically involves brainwashing which is what it sounds like be you aware of it or just liken it to an amazing spiritual awakening i have a hard time believing sobriety isn't something you have to work for and a literal and metaphorical trip to Mexico can cure you. You need to keep yourself occupied and stay positive and have people in your life you can talk to about what your going through. A fucking psychadelic with a supposed proffesional directing your trip sounds like snake oil bullshit to me but who knows.

 

[shimazu]

the key to not relapsing is to have other things in your life to draw enjoyment from. And to have the realization that when you are feeling down, using drugs only lets you escape from the problem. Actually doing something to solve the problem is the real key.

 

[Swimmingdancer]

I have a really hard time believing in ibogaine although pretty much any effective method of treatment basically involves brainwashing which is what it sounds like be you aware of it or just liken it to an amazing spiritual awakening i have a hard time believing sobriety isn't something you have to work for and a literal and metaphorical trip to Mexico can cure you. You need to keep yourself occupied and stay positive and have people in your life you can talk to about what your going through. A fucking psychadelic with a supposed proffesional directing your trip sounds like snake oil bullshit to me but who knows.

While I am not in agreement with everything the OP says and of course ibogaine is not a magic cure (there is no magic cure) it is statistically much more effective than conventional rehab. Ibogaine and ayahuasca are not just some hoax, they actually change your brain and can help alleviate withdrawal symptoms. They should be administered by some one experienced (a medicine man or doctor) in conjunction with counselling and medical treatment etc. Unfortunately this is not always the case so anyone looking into these therapies should do some investigation into the person or centre providing them. I can provide links to some good sites and studies about using ibogaine and ayahuasca to treat drug addiction and how it works if you like. There are some legit clinics in Canada that use this form of treatment.

 

[junkieman412]

While I am not in agreement with everything the OP says and of course ibogaine is not a magic cure (there is no magic cure) it is statistically much more effective than conventional rehab. Ibogaine and ayahuasca are not just some hoax, they actually change your brain and can help alleviate withdrawal symptoms. They should be administered by some one experienced (a medicine man or doctor) in conjunction with counselling and medical treatment etc. Unfortunately this is not always the case so anyone looking into these therapies should do some investigation into the person or centre providing them. I can provide links to some good sites and studies about using ibogaine and ayahuasca to treat drug addiction and how it works if you like. There are some legit clinics in Canada that use this form of treatment.

I think its just a paradox that lies within myself that makes me not believe in this method. While i absolutely 100% see the benefits of psychadelics, their contribution to society and the entire spiritual change & enlightenment I've experienced with them; i still at some point must realize that hallucinogens can be taken for what they are but in the end i am still an addict. I have a hard time believing that a switch can just be turned off and the allure that the life has for me and the twisted thought patterns i have about how "good" drugs made me feel can just be forgotten. Even psychadelics themselves have been a slippery slope for me because they lead me to believe its okay to use them. Just like its okay to drink. Basically its never a drug that cures another drug you know? Some reliable data would be helpful i just think ibogaine treatment is still in its infancy and not enough data has been shown. I have only just started hearing about it though.