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Tryptamines are to Serotonin as Phenethylamines are to Dopamine as ?? is to Histamine

M

mkumbra

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Shulgin said that "There is a chemically related natural neurological agent that has the potential of parallel chemistry [talking about other psychadelics]; this is the material histamine. With a black-board and a good supply of chalk, one could parallel the chemistry of both the phenethylamines and the tryptamines and draw a host of compounds that might possibly be psychoactive. But this is a theoretical world without any present known promise, and must wait for some future enthusiast to champion it."

Has anyone embarked on this path yet???
 
Before I got more into neuro-stuf I just thought sert=happy dopa=confident
But sert is also perseption right
 
It's nowhere near as simple as that. Serotonin does a TON of stuff in the body. Just look at the wikipedia page. Dopamine is related to reward pathways.

EDIT: and to answer your question, I haven't read of anybody doing that yet.
 
I'm not too hot with pharmacology, but I know antihistamines mostly have an effect on the acetylcholine receptors in the brain, so i'm assuming histamines do the same.
 
TMA-2 hits histamine-1. What that actually does is open to speculation, however. Personally, I didn't really like TMA-2.
 
shishigami said:
It's nowhere near as simple as that. Serotonin does a TON of stuff in the body. Just look at the wikipedia page. Dopamine is related to reward pathways.

EDIT: and to answer your question, I haven't read of anybody doing that yet.
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I have mate my post wasnt as detailed as my knoledge
 
I appreciate you wanting the answer to be a psychedelic (or maybe I interpret that wrong), but in my opinion it's more interesting to investigate what could be said about analogies and about psychoactives that are as close as histamine as can be. And that discussion is best suited in ADD, so

PD >> ADD
 
Histamine derivatives are not fun because the histamine receptor is not as nearly as "fun" as DA/NE/SER.

Compare alpha-methyl histamine - (???) with alpha-methyl-tryptamine/phenethylamine... both are powerful psychostimulants.

The problem is, histamine receptors control things like immune system response, gastric acid secretion, wakefulness, but as far as we know they don't really have a "central" effect.

Also, the old monoamine theory that dopamine = confidence and serotonin = happiness is a total crock of shit, there are too many factors involved to correlate a mood and a neurotransmitter.
 
Too right, and even regarding wakefulness it goes the wrong way for recreation... Well not that wakefulness promotors like modafinil are much fun but falling right down asleep from histaminergic action sounds pretty boring to me unless you just want some serious sleep. I wonder if antihistaminergic action that promotes wakefulness induces insomnia-like side-effects, or if another mechanism is involved to produce that, is it anticholinergic action that produces delerium states only?

Serotonin, dopamine and norepinephrin together can make a special combo in the right proportions but of those three I think norepinephrin is a fickle and shitty one. I don't know what is the most pure NE acting agent out there?

Anyway histamine action can produce wild rashes and itch, it's nothing to fuck with. Not that it's a particularly good idea to use monoamine releasers but messing with peripheral neurotransmitters may be just as crazy and what's also harsh: not well understood among most users. I guess that includes me: I only see histamine action pass by as side-effects and in most cases people wish histamine was not involved.
 
AFAIK, histamine agonism (@ H1R/H3R) in the brain causes wakefulness, antagonism (or rather inverse agonism) causes sedation (diphenhydramine/doxylamine). Anticholinergic activity is still responsible for delerium, I don't think that histamine activity causes psychotomimetic reactions.

Histamine H2R controls gastric acid secretion, H4R controls immunomodulation, and of course H1R on mast cells causes the infamous itchies.

Some H3 antagonists look like they could be interesting.
 
Solipsis said:
I don't know what is the most pure NE acting agent out there?
I agree that NE can feel like the deformed outcast cousin of the catecholamines at times. There are different types of NE receptors in the brain, but I do know that Yohimbine (from Yohimbe) is used as a NE agonist in some scientific trials. They often use it to induce a panic response, so that speaks about how lame it can be if you get too much.
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Yohimbine is an alpha2 adrenoreceptor antagonist. Nasty stuff. Alpha2 is the autoreceptor, so antagonizing it causes NA release, which tends to result in akathisia and panic.

I've tried a H3 antagonist (betahistine) and it does work pretty well at improving memory and wakefullness. I quite liked it, although it was quite subtle otherwise.
 
You can trip out of antihistamines, with a strong disassociative delirium, stronger than anything with DXM or the disassociative hallucinogens IMO. This is an overdose of course, and I believe doxylamine is particularly nasty for this kind of a trip. It is a trip though, where you'll see stuff but your disconnect from reality will be 100%. You may not be aware that you're tripping (more like full blown delirium).

Of course, the points about histamines being relaxing and good for anxiety and sleep is well established. Many OTC sleep meds are anthistamines including doxylamine. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doxylamine But I believe all the action is via the acetylcholine (i.e., muscarinic and nicotinic) receptors. The receptor systems used by the classic hallucinogens is different.
 
As far as alpha2 adrenoreceptor agonists go....they are truly a life-saver or me. I originally gut put on tizanidine at 2mg/d as a muscle relaxant to hopefully help with my bad knee, and as a side benefit, deal with my back, as my old mattress was so old, and battered, that there were springs poking out of the side.

I'm autie (and don't get me wrong, I am not at all complaining, I am happy with the way I am, and almost feel sorry for those people who will only ever have any 'experience' of being spesh via reading books, or lurking on forums run by auties/aspies, FOR aspies and/or auties.) and whilst tizanidine did bugger all for my knee, I found that it completely and totally prevented overloading. I've naturally always had a low appetite, so low as to have me only want one meal, and perhaps, just maybe a couple of snacks per day. With the tizanidine, my appetite is fine, or even a case of the munchies if I take a highish dose per os. Right now, I am headed to the chinese, and will be chowing down 2 portions of fried salt&pepper chilli squid in batter, some egg fried rice and methinks a couple of banana fritters as soon as I've finished my fag.

Since I've got my tizanidine rx, and had it increased to 8-10mg/d (although I sometimes use less, other times much more, going occasionally up to

occasionally as much as 20-30mg). And I've naturally had a wierdarsed sleep cycle, sometimes sleeping for days at a time, and sometimes not sleeping at all for a day or two. I've found that rectal dosing of 8-10mg will quickly and reliably knock me out cold in just about the time it takes to smoke a rollup)

It seems to either prevent dreaming, or totally prevent any recollection of dreams. I have PTSD, thanks to repeated mistreatment by the filth and I never, ever have the awful nightmares that come with it while taking it. It is a fantastic sleep aid, better by far than benzos, and non-addictive. I am scripted both loprazolam and nitrazepam, along with chlormethiazole. Ostensibly each once daily. I don't use them in that manner however, as there would simply be zero effect, but rather, use only occasionally, taking a much larger dose. I don't the GABAergics often enough to get a tolerance, or if I do, not much of one. Yet even from the very beginning of said scripts, I seemed to have a naturally extremely high resistance to most GABA drugs.

I don't get why A2 adrenoreceptor agonists are not prescribed more often, in lieu of BZDs, Z-drugs. barbs and what have ye. They seem a LOT safer, and although sudden discontinuation can produce a nasty rebound (happened to me once, when my bloodycunting bastardlyshite HELL-WHORE former housemate stole and hid my meds..really, REALLY not a pleasant experience, but nothing like benzo WD, or opioid WD, far shorter lived than either too)
Not reinforcing to the best of my knowledge, and nonaddictive.

Also, especially when plugged in non-KO doses, it relieves a great deal of the symptoms of opioid WD.

Its really improved my quality of life in quite a few different areas.
 
gymstud said:
So tripts are more seret and phens more dopamine
Is that true
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In short FUCK NO:

Do you know how many hallucinogenic phenethylamine compounds there are that act on serotonin? DOI DOM DOB Mescaline 2C-T2, 2C-T7, 2C-T21, 2C-I, 2C-B, 2C-E, MDMA, MDA and the list goes on for ages. Blend too many of these you get serotonin shock.

Tryptamines and most all hallucinogenic Phens hit serotonin in magical ways. I think amphetamines, and MDMA are the only two phens I know of that are really dopamine heavy.


Understand something about chemistry and pharmacology that is always a common mistake, just because something has the same skeletal base does not mean it will digest and behave the same once it hits the brain blood barrier and crosses. Do you know how big a difference one ketone makes on amphetamine molecules? Like DOB can last 8 to 10 hours, 2C-B which comes from it lasts around 3 to 4.

Look at it this way, let's say 2 people started with the same skeleton, big frame stocky shoulders big boned. One was a jock and worked out a lot and had great skin from his lifestyle and his mom being a health nut. The other became a morbidly obese, mmo bedroom troll, with sweat stains under his white starwars shirt that made princess leia's face yellow near his manboobs, and he had a huge mole on his forehead with hairs growing out of it long enough to braid, and his right arm was scar tissue from second to 3rd degree burns from his carpet lighting on fire from an overclocking incident coupled with an attempt to make an oil cooled right that actually had grease it it causing a grease fire which he tried to put out with bawlz energy drinks to save his porn collection.

So we have same skeleton with different things added, do you think both of these people would be received by society the same? Chemical structures respond the same in your body.
 
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With regard to the main topic, I'm not sure the neurotransmitters you'd be targeting with these routes would be ones you'd get much pleasure from. And the systems you'd be risking damaging (acetylcholine for instance) would probably far too risky for any psychonaughts to venture and tinker with. You might wind up like the movie 'memento.' It seems to me if anything you'd be synthing deleriants maybe, or just fuck your memory system all up. Be interesting if someone could make a hallucinogen that just warped your long term memories temporarily, like drive past the mall and have a false memory of getting gang fucked by martians or something. Hmm, think you might want to tell the govt to look into this and add it to Midwestern towns drinking water supplies, see what happens :P
 
^
Strangely, I've done many different compounds mentioned in this thread, and the only one that did anything like what you said is mushrooms. It was quite a while ago, and I litterally couldn't remember my name or anything about me in part of one particular trip, and saw the people around me as my parents (as in, saw an odd warped sense of my home life at this time, with these 2 peoples faces as my parents). I can't even describe it well, but it's the closest I've ever been to what you just said.
 
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