capped mdma

[alasdairm]

then you went to calling me stupid

that is absolutely false. the discussion is here in black and white for everybody to read and not once did i tell you you were stupid. yet more fabrication.

in post #34 i called your assertion that "mdma works on serotonin" moronic, not you, your assertion. and it was moronic as both severely etarded and chemically insane confirm.

in post #45 i sad that you were making yourself look stupid. not that you are stupid but that you look stupid. it's quite possible for an intelligent man to appear stupid while remaining intelligent. the two ideas are hardly mutually exclusive, are they? if you can't tell the different, well...

Wheres your evidence for your new Salmon?

no, no, no. we're using the folley approach to debate on this one. i've made a claim. it's true until you disprove it. you haven't disproved it.

i suspect we're at an impasse, folley. it's perfectly clear that you're not listening to me and, frankly, i'm done listening to you.

three more bluelighters are now telling you in plain words that your understanding of how mdma works is flawed and that, from there, the conclusions you draw are incorrect. i guess they're all wrong too?



alasdair

 

[Folley]

no, no, no. we're using the folley approach to debate on this one. i've made a claim. it's true until you disprove it. you haven't disproved it.

i suspect we're at an impasse, folley. it's perfectly clear that you're not listening to me and, frankly, i'm done listening to you.

three more bluelighters are now telling you in plain words that your understanding of how mdma works is flawed and that, from there, the conclusions you draw are incorrect. i guess they're all wrong too?



alasdair

Right, because I havent provided any evidence for my argument. Im not even going to argue that one.
You have absolutely nothing to use as evidence to disprove this theory. I have plenty of evidence to support it.

ONCE AGAIN, it is the rebutting parties job is to provide an argument that can disprove the theory.. what is yours? The only thing Ive seen so far is that "emotions are in the brain", which was showed to be completely wrong already... wait how is that not a "disservice to Bluelight"?

I dont understand why its only when I dont provide enough evidence....


Ive been listening to you this entire time. You have said NOTHING other than how some of my useless background facts are wrong.

I mean, you did try and say that drug/emotions only have effects on the brain, and I showed how other drugs that work on serotonin (SSRIs) and make changes to the brain almost always make changes to the stomach as well.

If you actually have something to add though, I would love to hear it.



Severely, I know its not binding down there. I dont even think it would have anything to bind to.

This is what Im saying, in as few words as possible:



90% of serotonin is in the stomach. There are certain ways that that this serotonin can make you happy and make you feel good, that is completely separate from what the Serotonin in the brain does. When MDMA is taken orally, it starts whatever process that happens naturally in the gut, and when combined with the effects in the brain, the high is much better.


If you inject or snort MDMA, it bypasses this system completely and goes through a different route to the brain. It ends up in the same place, yes, but what it goes through to get there is also very important

 

[alasdairm]

When MDMA is taken orally, it starts whatever process that happens naturally in the gut...

how does it 'start' that process? how exactly does it do that?

we're back to square one. i can totally understand how you might come to the conclusion to which you have if mdma acted directly on serontonin but it doesn't. that's now how mdma works. mdma works by acting on neurons in the brain to precipitate the release of serotonin. mdma acts directly on a component of a neuron called a 'vesicle'. it tells the vesicle to release serontonin into the synapse. that serontonin then binds to a receptor (or receptors) causing the person to experience the feeling(s).

there are no neurons in the gut so this can't happen in the gut. these effects take place when the mdma makes its way from the gut to the brain by means of the blood.

so let's go back to your claim. mdma starts some process in the gut. how exactly does it do that. which specific physiological process is at play and how exactly does it work.

are you familiar with the basics of logic? in a deductive argument, the conclusion is true if the argument is valid and the premises are true. agreed?

in a nutshell, here is your argument:

1. mdma works on serotonin
2. there is serotonin in the gut
3. therefore mdma taken directly to the gut (i.e. orally) creates a more 'loved-up' feeling?

your argument falls down on so many basic principles of logic that it's harmful to the quality of discussion in this forum. it falls at the first hurdle as one of your premises is completely untrue. that's before we even get into the discussion about how you even begin to objectively measure a qualitative thing such as a feeling being "more loved up".

alasdair

 

[Folley]

there are no neurons in the gut so this can't happen in the gut. these effects take place when the mdma makes its way from the gut to the brain by means of the blood.

Except that I have already proved a link between the serotonin in the gut, and the neurons in the brain.

What exactly happens? No one knows. You know why? Its because WHENEVER they do a study on MDMA, they do it on mice. They also inject the mice with MDMA, so it goes straight to the brain, and no where else.\



You are RETARDED, if you think Im saying that MDMA is releasing serotonin in the stomach. There IS a method in which the serotonin in your stomach is DIRECTLY RELATED to emotions that happen in the brain, but this link is not even understood by experts yet.


As SE said, why are things that happen in the brain mutually exclusive from things that can happen in other places in the body? Especially when the brain is connected to every single millimeter of your body. Since you of course already know this, because you know everything, than why dont you know that one of the MAIN place the brain is connected to, is our gut?

mdma works by acting on neurons in the brain to precipitate the release of serotonin. mdma acts directly on a component of a neuron called a 'vesicle'. it tells the vesicle to release serontonin into the synapse. that serontonin then binds to a receptor (or receptors) causing the person to experience the feeling(s).

Yes. You're absolutely right, when a MOUSE is INJECTED with MDMA, it goes straight to the brain and only causes changes in the neurons.

This has absolutely nothing to do with what happens hen a HUMAN eats MDMA.

In recent years the link between the nervous system and the digestive system has been recognized. There is a constant exchange of chemicals and electrical messages between the two systems. In fact, many scientists often refer to them as one entity; the brain-gut axis. Therefore, what affects the stomach will directly affect the brain and vice versa.

 

[alasdairm]

When MDMA is taken orally, it starts whatever process that happens naturally in the gut...

how?

alasdair

 

[Folley]

Well we would have to understand the process in the first place to understand how its started, wouldn't we?


Once we see the first MDMA study on humans where they bomb it, Im sure we'll have some great evidence. Unfortunately, I dont see this happening anytime soon.

 

[alasdairm]

this should be very straighforward. you claim that "When MDMA is taken orally, it starts whatever process...".

how does it start this process? how do you know that it starts this process at all?

alasdair

 

[severely etarded]

^ The link is through blood and nerves. Pretty simple IMO. The nerves transmit small electrical impulses through blood plasma and electrolytes in which it contains. Regardless of the ROA, the MDMA ends up "sticking" or binding with the SERT's in the brain, blocking serotonin from being reuptaken by the blood stream, causing a flood of serotonin in the brain.

Serotonin does not cross the blood brain barrier easily so only a small amount makes it from the gut into the brain (1-2%), although you are correct that there is a big link between the brain and the rest of the body.

But I do not believe there would be a serotonergic difference in ROA; simply the bioavailabilty would change along with the onset and duration of effects, which as I have learned by using cocaine in 3 different ways, makes a huge difference in the feeling of the high itself

 

[Folley]

how does it start this process? how do you know that it starts this process at all?

Because food fucking starts this process. Its not like the chemical just goes to your stomach, than is directly absorbed and goes straight to your brain. The human body is more complex than that, but once again, we do not understand this process. The relation between the gut and brain was only proved a short while ago.

Once again, serotonin is responsible for making your digestive system work the way its supposed to. Without serotonin, you cant digest anything.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serotonin

Try reading on the first 3 functions of serotonin.


SE, if only the BA% and onset time mattered, than why are sublingual and rectal, two RoA that come on about as fast as snorting, still very similar to bombing?

 

[alasdairm]

Because food fucking starts this process.

but mdma is not food. are you saying that anything introduced into the gut would have the same effect?

we do not understand this process.

indeed.

q.e.d.

alasdair

 

[Folley]

But unlike in worms, serotonin does not increase anticipatory behaviour in humans; instead, the serotonin released while consuming activates 5-HT2C receptors on dopamine-producing cells. This halts their dopamine release, and thereby serotonin decreases appetite.

When you eat, dopamine production is halted. Dopamine is attributed to speedy type highs, so when you eat MDMA, there is less dopamine, which means less dopamine can enter serotonin's axons, meaning less damage done to the receptors, and more room for serotonin to be released in the neurons.

There, I even have proof for my theory using your "emotions only happen in the brain" bull shit.


^ anything that actually has an effect on serotonin, like L-Tryptophan or chemicals like MDMA and SSRIs, yes. However, if you were to eat plastic or a poison, the opposite of this happens and the serotonin in your gut will cause you to either vomit or have diarrhea, which leads to you feeling like shit, thanks to the Brain-Gut connection.

 

[alasdairm]

When you eat, dopamine production is halted. Dopamine is attributed to speedy type highs, so when you eat MDMA, there is less dopamine, which means less dopamine can enter serotonin's axons, meaning less damage done to the receptors, and more room for serotonin to be released in the neurons.

more absolutely nonsense.

what on earth does this mean: "less dopamine can enter serotonin's axons"? that is absolutely and completely meaningless and, yet again, demonstrates that you have no idea what you're talking about. an axon is the nerve which transmits electrical impulses in a neuron. what is a 'serotonin axon'? no such thing. when does dopamine enter an axon. it doesn't.

it's clear to me and to everybody else here i am sure, what's happening here. you're throwing around a bunch of terms that relate to brain chemistry and you've made a few assumptions based on a very poor grasp of what happens in the brain. the way you use these words makes it clear to everybody that you have no idea what they mean and no real understanding, in even the most basic terms, of how these systems actually operate.



alasdair

 

[severely etarded]

SE, if only the BA% and onset time mattered, than why are sublingual and rectal, two RoA that come on about as fast as snorting, still very similar to bombing?

I would imagine because the BA% of snorting is lower, where the former two are similar in % to oral.

When you eat, dopamine production is halted.

I didn't know this... In fact I would have figured the opposite, since dopamine originates from the intake of phenylalanine, essential dietary protein/amino acid, and simultaneous insulin production (which occurs from eating).

Dopamine is attributed to speedy type highs

Opiates work primarily on dopamine, which are anything but "speedy type highs". Hence "nodding off". Down south we call codeine syrup "lean" because it makes you drowsy as fuck, and not only because of the promethazine.

anything that actually has an effect on serotonin, like L-Tryptophan or chemicals like MDMA and SSRIs, yes. However, if you were to eat plastic or a poison, the opposite of this happens and the serotonin in your gut will cause you to either vomit or have diarrhea, which leads to you feeling like shit, thanks to the Brain-Gut connection.

serotonin syndrome in and of itself causes vomiting and diarrhea. Serotonin is a major chemical in the intestines and it is all connected through the brain, blood, and nerve endings. It is simply an essential neurotransmitter with various functons thoughout the body. Nothing more, nothing less.

Emotions do happen in the brain though. The gut is connected and all, but the cognitive functions of humans start in the brain.

 

[Folley]

So you're saying dopamine does not enter the serotonin receptors?

Axon was the wrong word to use OK, but that doesnt take anything away from the validity of my claim.


If you knew anything about MDMA, you would know that it also releases dopamine, which will enter the receptors and destroy them for future use. When you eat, dopamine release (in the brain) is halted, which will lead to less entering and destroying serotonin's receptors.


I never claim to know how these systems work, other than an extremely basic understand which I have completely taught to myself.

You cannot shoot down this theory based on that alone however, which is all you have done by the way. There is plenty of evidence to support this, and NOTHING to refute it.

This doesnt prove it, but considering the fact I can support my arguments, and the only thing you have to argue is that I dont do that well, you have nothing that can even put a shadow of doubt on this theory.



If it was written by a smarter man, it wouldnt be any more true.

Emotions do happen in the brain though. The gut is connected and all, but the cognitive functions of humans start in the brain.

But not where they end my friend...


opiates work more on the opioid receptors than dopamine, that would be what causes the drowsyness and relaxation. Their action on dopamine is more directly related to the addictiveness of opiates, being the "reward center" and all.

 

[alasdairm]

So you're saying dopamine does not enter the serotonin receptors?

Axon was the wrong word to use OK, but that doesnt take anything away from the validity of my claim.

what i'm saying is that you're making assumptions based on a limited, if not flawed, understanding of these concepts and trying to pass it off as fact. your more recent posts in the thread add ample support.

I never claim to know how these systems work, other than an extremely basic understand which I have completely taught to myself.

q.e.d.

You cannot shoot down this theory based on that alone however, which is all you have done by the way. There is plenty of evidence to support this, and NOTHING to refute it.

by that logic, salmon live up trees and eat pencils. you have provided nothing to refute that so it's true

alasdair

 

[Folley]

No, you have provided no evidence that Salmon live in trees.

I have plenty of evidence to support my argument.


not to mention, I already showed a salmon under water. If you can provide me with evidence that they grew lungs and claws, I would be happy to accept this as a theory.


But you cant, and I already have. Multiple times, with multiple approaches. There is no similarity there.



Do you have a reading disorder dude? Because you seem to always skip right past the point of my posts and go straight to the unimportant parts, almost always ignoring the information that has proven you wrong several times already

IE:
Emotions only happen in the brain - I showed a significant connection with the gut
MDMA's actions only take place in the brain - when mice are injected
MDMA doesnt "stimulate" the stomach - food being broken down causes less dopamine to be produced, perhaps similar to what happens when MDMA is broken down, or what happens to the stomach when drugs like SSRIs are taken. Obviously in its own unique way, however.


and of course there is the quote which states that ANYTHING that makes a change to the brain, will make a change to the stomach, and vice vesra

 

[severely etarded]

So you're saying dopamine does not enter the serotonin receptors?

I'm pretty sure science has concluded MDMA works on the DAT (dopamine Transporter) and the NAT (norepinephrine transporter). I do not believe dopamine enters the SERT (serotonin transporter) however.

If you knew anything about MDMA, you would know that it also releases dopamine, which will enter the receptors and destroy them for future use. When you eat, dopamine release (in the brain) is halted, which will lead to less entering and destroying serotonin's receptors.

MDMA isn't really eating though. It has no nutrition and no calories. In fact I can't really feel opiates unless I eat. Last time I took some hydrocodone, I took like 27.5 mg's on empty stomach and then 2.5 hours later ate a cheeseburger and it hit me like a train, because of the fat I'm assuming. IDK if the dopamine was releasing or not, but I felt "good".

But not where they end my friend...

Agreed. Example, nervousness/anxiousness (emotion) --> nausea ---> vomiting. In fact nervousness and anxiousness makes me have to shit a lot of times, not only stimulant induced.

MDMA doesnt "stimulate" the stomach - food being broken down causes less dopamine to be produced, perhaps similar to what happens when MDMA is broken down

Food being broken down causes insulin to be produced. MDMA does not produce insulin; it is not food.

But you are correct 100% there are many strong links between the brain and the rest of the body. Nerve impulses are real, and there is serotonin in the gut.


Question: Do mice have serotonin in their gut? I believe that would be significant to this argument. I honestly have no idea.

 

[Folley]

MDMA isn't really eating though. It has no nutrition and no calories. In fact I can't really feel opiates unless I eat. Last time I took some hydrocodone, I took like 27.5 mg's on empty stomach and then 2.5 hours later ate a cheeseburger and it hit me like a train, because of the fat I'm assuming. IDK if the dopamine was releasing or not, but I felt "good".

True, but if simple foods can do this, why not a chemical like MDMA? Of course its not going to do the same thing as food will, because its not, but it shows a link between digestion/serotonin in your gut and emotions/actions happening in your brain

A better look would be what SSRIs do to the stomach, unfortunately you usually have to take them for weeks before they build up an effect, so my guess would be that the mechanism is still quite different between the two..

I'm pretty sure science has concluded MDMA works on the DAT (dopamine Transporter) and the NAT (norepinephrine transporter). I do not believe dopamine enters the SERT (serotonin transporter) however.

Ive only heard about it on Bluelight, so it wont be easy, but Ill do some digging and see if I cant find the source behind that

 

[alasdairm]

^ by your own admission, the process is poorly understood and you don't fully understand it but mdma just has to start this process. it just has to. you've made an assumption and now you're trying to shoehorn everything to fit it.

have you heard of the saying "when all you have is a hammer, everything starts to look like a nail"? i believe it applies here.

No, you have provided no evidence that Salmon live in trees.

mdma works on serotonin
there is serotonin in the gut
therefore, mdma is more loved up when in the gut

salmon live in the wild
there are trees in the wild
therefore salmon live in trees.

when the premise is false, the conclusion must be false.

alasdair

 

[Folley]

Except that I only came up with that extremely vague premise one time, for you, and I was trying to dumb it down in as little words as possible.

Keep trying though. Your method of bringing up the same old things that I have already dealt with seems to be working