Ayahuasca, in the bush

[Flickering]

There is a 50% chance that over the Easter long weekend, my roommate and I are going into the bush to camp out, brew ayahuasca over a campfire during the day, and take it at night in the tent. This will be our first experience with yage. In my friend's case, it will be his second experience ever with psychedelics - and his first was a couple of weeks ago under my supervision, on three quarters of a tab of acid. In my case I've had about ten experiences, mostly light.

My friend just feels 'called' to the experience; he doesn't want to build up to it with other substances, he doesn't want to even read reports about what it will be like. For myself, I mean to take it as a medicine. I fully expect a very intense, very difficult experience but I hope it will ultimately be healing.

We were wondering...

1. My friend wants to trip around a campfire. That sounds like a great idea! - except I'm worried about one of us falling into it while incapacitated. The answer to this seems obvious to me, and I'm just going to pass this on to him... should we not light a fire before taking the incapacitating and world-altering brew? Also, is does ayahuasca always render the drinker entirely immobile?

2. Test dose - I would like us to take a threshold dose a few hours before the full trip, to make sure we both have physically and mentally typical reactions. My thoughts are that we take the test dose WITHOUT syrian rue, because otherwise the MAOI stays in our systems and could screw things up for the real experience. What do you reckon?

3. Is it a just plain bad idea? I've asked this on Bluelight before for other upcoming experiences (most recently 4 strong tabs in the desert; Bluelighters recommended I drop that to 2 or 3) and I've always had sound advice. But at the same time we're both fairly set on this and we're not doing it just to fuck around.

By the way I said there was a 50% chance of this happening. The other 50% involves me getting ibogaine instead, in which case I'll do it before Easter at a very high 'flood' dose. Ibogaine is physically dangerous, but I'm a lot more scared of ayahuasca - I've faced death before, but the vaults and horrors of the mind can be orders of magnitude worse.

Thanks in advance for your replies...

 

[H1erophant]

I would advise that whatever you do you have a trip sitter present. You'll be far away from society and from medical attention should something happen with the drug or because of it. If I were you I would forgo any test doses and just sip on the main doses slowly giving you time to gauge how potent this tea is and what effects it is going to give you

 

[Ismene]

I wouldn't expect a intense or difficult experience Flickering. Oral DMT is very friendly. The problem will be whether you can choke enough of the brew down to get any effects.

Ayahuasca doesn't render you immobile. You may need to throw up (tho 5-10 drops of essential lemon oil will deactivate the nausea receptors and reduce any nausea if not eliminate it entirely) but after you've thrown up DMT is the best bodyhigh I know - you'll be dancing round the fire if anything.

Test dose - I would like us to take a threshold dose a few hours before the full trip, to make sure we both have physically and mentally typical reactions. My thoughts are that we take the test dose WITHOUT syrian rue

I don't think you need a test dose of the DMT part - it's the MAOI that's going to cause any complications.

I've always found oral DMT to have quite a strong tolerance so I wouldn't recomend taking an initial dose and then one later on.

Is it a just plain bad idea

I'd be wary of trying to choke down the brew for your first time simply because I've got a feeling that it might not work and you'll just get the nausea and no pleasant effects. Doing an extraction and getting some DMT crystals and moclobemide would be a better bet I think.

I've always found oral DMT to be the friendliest of all the psychedelics - I'd forget all the stories about it and just go into it with an open mind.

 

[Flickering]

Thanks both for your replies. Based on this...

We were going to drive several hours to find the right campsite - considering it might not work at all, I'm going to forego this and do it somewhere closer to home.

I'm confident I can get it down, not so confident about keeping it down, but chewing raw ginger is a miracle so far as that goes. I've had cactus juice a few times before and the only times it wasn't manageable was when I failed to boil it down to 200mLs or less.

I will take half the brew in one go and sip the rest over the course of an hour to gauge effects. (Approximately when does the purging start?)

Worth mentioning the ingredients I'm using are B. Caapi, psychotria viridis and syrian rue (pretty traditional I think). We'll probably take 30g each of Caapi and viridis, and 3g each of rue, though I need to do some more research on this - dosage information is surprisingly hard to come by, and on Bluelight it's dosage advice isn't allowed.

Open mind is an excellent idea. I have to admit I'm guilty of psyching my friend out a bit. He'd like me to kindly shut the fuck up and let whatever happens, happen.

Tripsitter isn't going to be likely. Ideally, I'll have my ibogaine trip this coming weekend, and I'll be sober to sit my friend through his ayahuasca trip. Then he'll take ibogaine in a while and I'll sit him again, and I'll take ayahuasca in a while and he'll sit me again.

We're both doing it at night. We would do it at home, but we have roommates, and we don't want to disturb them by screaming "OH GOD I'M DYING / BEING TORN LIMB FROM LIMB BY VISHNU / IN THE THROES OF UNIMAGINABLE EUPHORIA / TERROR / WHO THE HELL KNOWS WHAT?!" This is also a difficulty with finding the right campsite.

 

[Propyl Power]

Worth mentioning the ingredients I'm using are B. Caapi, psychotria viridis and syrian rue (pretty traditional I think). We'll probably take 30g each of Caapi and viridis, and 3g each of rue
.

either take 3-5 grams of rue, or 30-50 grams of caapi. I would advise against combining them, especially on your first time.

caapi tends to be variable in potency, with dosages ranging from 10-100 grams, so it is good to have some familiarity with your material.

you can joke about being torn to shreds now, but in the moment it is no joke!

 

[Flickering]

I'm sure it isn't. Key thing to note is, my friend and I aren't doing this to 'get fucked up'. We're taking it as a serious spiritual endeavour knowing it will be a rough journey. He is taking it simply because he feels drawn to it; I'm taking it as a medicine for my mind, since nothing else has worked. I actually place more trust in ibogaine... unfortunately, it has yet to arrive. But I'm still confident this will be a very worthwhile, hopefully positively life-changing experience.

That's the other reason we're doing it in the bush, instead of at home. Apart from "in inner space no one can hear you scream!" there's also the whole nature thing. It's not the Amazonian jungle but it's something.

Thanks for the recommendation. To be honest, I'm hesitant about taking more than three grams of syrian rue, from what I've heard, it plays a harsher role in the trip. I've revised my planned dosage to 50g caapi, 30g viridis, and 2g syrian rue. In light of what you advise PP, we'll see about cutting the rue or the caapi... thing is though we both want the 'full' experience, i.e. around 8 hours not 2, so I would think at least some amount of MAOI would have to be present in the brew.

If that sounds like a lot, we'll be taking a half, or maybe two thirds, of the brew first, then waiting about 15 minutes into the initial effects to see if it's where we want it, then maybe finishing the rest (or finishing half of the rest, or whatever). If we're cognisant enough to store whatever we don't drink in an esky, that gets us another one or two trips down the line sometime as well.

Thanks again for all your advice, I am finding this helpful. Another thing, and I can't find info on this. My friend has just informed me that he may need to take Nexium because he has a problem with his stomach acids and he doesn't want it to complicate the trip. I told him that the purging would probably, if anything, help with this recurrent problem. But the main concern is whether there are any contraindications between DMT, or especially syrian rue, and Nexium (which I've never heard of, and Google doesn't tell me much about contraindications). Any thoughts? It might be another reason to take caapi + viridis instead of viridis + rue.

Edit: My friend is about 160% my weight, how does this affect DMT? Should he take more than me?

And if the brew doesn't work at all, would it be a bad idea to wait a few hours and take LSD instead? Not what we had in mind, but the environment in question is perfect for some secluded reflection, and the syrian rue would probably potentiate it. After three hours, I don't think the DMT would suddenly decide to kick in. But I suppose it could happen.

 

[H1erophant]

You're right to keep the dose of syrian ryu at a minimum. A few days ago I tried ~10g of syrian ryu seeds, these are what I believe causes the "purge" when taking ayahuasca as I threw up a number of times and also had some diarrhea, on a more positive note the experience was somewhat psychedelic in and of it self offering tracers and lagged vision. When I finally get down and dirty and throw some dmt containing plant material into the ix I would much rather have the dmt be producing most of the effects.

 

[FnX]

I really, really recommend a sober and experienced trip sitter. I can not emphasize this enough. ESPECIALLY considering your friends experience with psychedelics. It's really playing with fire imo, mental traumas aren't fun and ayahuasca is definately something that can potentially cause them. The tea might not end up that strong or it might end up way too strong for even a seasoned tripper. You'll also be camping in the middle of the forest, that can potentially lead you to some very, very dark places mentally.

As for the test dose, I don't think you will get mental effects from the oral DMT unless you combine it with a MAOI.

'ayahuasca doesn't render you immobile' - that statement is totally dose dependent. When you're brewing tea, you can't be sure if you end up with a dose that does leave you completely immobile and dissociated from outside world. It has happened to me, it was my first psychedelic experience and it left me with years of mental trauma and I really regret we did not have a sober trip sitter, although I had lost the concept of language completely during the peak and was pretty much unable to communicate with anything anyway. To think if I was camping in the middle of a forest at that time as well... oh man.

I honestly believe it would be a better idea to take the acid instead in this case with all things considered, especially your friends inexperience. Perhaps go for a higher dose if you really seek a strong experience.

 

[webbykevin]

How are you going to brew it the daytime and then drink it that night ?

It takes 2 says of prep from scratch to do it properly, 2 boils, then i final boil to the 2 combined whashes, if you rush that prcoss by boiuling to fast you will cramelize the sugars and it will be a thick goopy undrinkable slime. good ayahuasca tales 2 day to make properly and should be almost as runny as water.

 

[TangerinO]

From what I understand Ibogaine is HORRENDOUS on the body, but the mind is clear as a crystal. If you take Ibogaine, I would expect to be in a lot of pain.

As for ayuhuasca if you had a trip sitter it'd be fine. It's not so much that you wouldn't be able to handle yourself, but when eating stuff like ayuhuasca and ibogaine it's best just to have someone there just in case. Especially in the middle of nowhere.

 

[Ismene]

'ayahuasca doesn't render you immobile' - that statement is totally dose dependent.

No it's not like K where you have trouble physically moving. If you were immobile it was purely down to your imagination. I've taken doses high enough to stun a charging rhino and been up dancing.

 

[B9]

How much ayahuasca does it take to stun a charging rhino ?

 

[yagecero]

^LOL^

I'm going to also add that just because s/he's imagining (because imagination never comes into play when you're under the influence of a powerful hallucinogen) something, doesn't mean it's any less real than any other experience. Surely if one's reality is that they can't move on a high dose of oral DMT, that's just as real(ity), as being able to dance.

 

[Flickering]

What good can a tripsitter really do when you're having a completely internal traumatic experience? On one of the two bad trips I've had, I had a tripsitter and his presence just made things heaps worse. I dunno, I just don't think dragging someone out and keeping them up all night just to remind us "it's all in your head" when we start sliding into Hell is worth it.

See, I'd take the LSD instead, but from what I understand, even a higher dose just doesn't have the healing capacity of ayahuasca. I'm at a point in my life where something has to change, it's that simple. I can't break the patterns myself. I'm sure a 300 microgram dose in the environment we have planned would be lovely, and possibly full of theraputic insights, but my experience with the substance so far tells me, it's not enough right now. It's great, but it's not enough. I'm willing to risk mental trauma to do this, and I'm confident I will pull through.

After my friend and I failed to find a campsite on our recent search, we ended up deciding to go out to the sand dunes where I took mescaline a few months back. They're vast, secluded and quiet - a perfect environment. It's a few hours' drive away. There's a forest bordering the beach where we can set up camp and stay out of sight in case anyone does happen to come by. We also decided to brew at home instead, because controlling the temperature of a campfire so that it doesn't boil will be too difficult.

Syrian rue - yes I think a sub-psychedelic dose would be ideal to extend the trip without influencing it too much.

For cooking it - I've read recipes that last as short as four hours. Unfortunately my friend and I just don't have the environment to cook it for days on end. It's hard enough getting away with one day. We have roommates who wouldn't approve, and we can pass off a few hours as cooking some herbal Chinese medicine that smells bad, but no one would believe more than a day. Unfortunate, but it's the way it is.

Ibogaine is pretty physically demanding, based on some reports I've read and people I've spoken to, and for that reason a tripsitter is essential. Toilet breaks, throwing up, possible medical emergencies, and so on. Ayahuasca, well I know I don't have any experience, but lots of people do it on their own for a first time, and again I just don't see what a sober sitter can actually do for you when you're that deep in. Best thing to do is take the half dose and see how strong it's coming on, I'm thinking.

 

[Ismene]

How much ayahuasca does it take to stun a charging rhino ?

With the magic "10 drops of essence of lemon oil" to control the nausea the skys the limit!

Surely if one's reality is that they can't move on a high dose of oral DMT

Maybe but oral DMT has never struck me as the kind of drug that immobilises you - even at profound doses.

See, I'd take the LSD instead, but from what I understand, even a higher dose just doesn't have the healing capacity of ayahuasca.

I dunno, there's been some reports of people finding LSD very healing. Oral DMT is kinda like mushrooms to the power of 10. Incredibly psychedelic but it's not going to automatically solve all your problems.

And I imagine using the old fashioned brew technique it might take you 2 or 3 attempts to get anywhere.

 

[Flickering]

Hm. Well, I'll definitely take the LSD as a backup then. Might take a bit less in case the MAO inhibition is still active even after a few hours. I don't really expect a quick fix for everything (though, you know, I wouldn't complain if it did happen...) but I'm hoping the power of the experience will rudely interrupt some of the negative patterns in my life and give me an opportunity to change them. Instead of going around and around in the drain.

 

[folding_space]

Just a couple data points that you seem to be missing:
- Rue and caapi are both MAOIs. It's not necessary to use both. In the right quantities, either one will be sufficient to make the DMT orally active.
- MAOIs do not potentiate LSD, since it is not a monoamine and is not broken down by MAO.
- On its own, oral DMT is not active, so a test dose of just oral DMT would not accomplish anything.
- If you can extract the DMT and take that together with a reversible MAOI, you will have a less physically taxing experience because you won't be consuming various inert plant matter.

As for the overall plan, I would advise against it. The rabbit hole is much, much, MUCH deeper than you think, and oral DMT is just more firepower than you need right now. All of my most insightful psychedelic experiences have come not from blasting myself to the ends of the universe but from taking doses that are high enough to be challenging but low enough to give you input that you can still understand and work with.

 

[Flickering]

Thanks. I hadn't actually realised Caapi was a MAO inhibitor too. Strange, because I've scoured the 'net for information on all three entheogens. I did see people ask "Can I use B Caapi as a MAOI?" but never clicked on the topics, I always just thought, "What? No, of course not."

So one of the traditional recipies is B Caapi, psychotria viridis and syrian rue - why do people use all three if it's only necessary to use two? Will the experience last for around eight hours if I don't take the rue, or will it filter away after two or three?

We can't extract the DMT at this point... I'm going to count purging as part of the experience anyway. Not a nice part, but then I'm not doing this for fun.

Rabbit hole goes deep - yeah. Maybe deeper than I'm ready for. Half dose to start with will give me some idea. Strongest trip I ever had was third plateau DXM. That was pretty intense. It was also awful, but not really because of the intensity, more because of the effects in and of themselves - felt less like a trip, more like severe brain damage. I guess you could say the same for ayahuasca though. I'll take what you've said into account... thanks for the advice.

 

[azgaza]

Just a couple data points that you seem to be missing:
- Rue and caapi are both MAOIs. It's not necessary to use both. In the right quantities, either one will be sufficient to make the DMT orally active.
- MAOIs do not potentiate LSD, since it is not a monoamine and is not broken down by MAO.
- On its own, oral DMT is not active, so a test dose of just oral DMT would not accomplish anything.
- If you can extract the DMT and take that together with a reversible MAOI, you will have a less physically taxing experience because you won't be consuming various inert plant matter.

As for the overall plan, I would advise against it. The rabbit hole is much, much, MUCH deeper than you think, and oral DMT is just more firepower than you need right now. All of my most insightful psychedelic experiences have come not from blasting myself to the ends of the universe but from taking doses that are high enough to be challenging but low enough to give you input that you can still understand and work with.

I agree with this poster mainly because everything said in this post is what I would've posted if it hadn't been posted here already

I'd almost suggest mushrooms in a higher dosage if you want some proper insights; personally mushroom trips have always been the most 'mind-fixing' trips. For example after a period of phobic behavior a mushroom trip can put me back in to the right perspetive,and these positive after effects last for weeks up to months up to years. I'd assume it's similair with oral DMT (all my DMT experiences are smoked, also insulfated 4-aco-dmt, which is more ... 'woo psychedelic :D wow'); either way; be careful and if you can
find a relaxed and non intrusive sober person to be sitter that would honestly be a good idea for safety and all.

 

[sn23]

So one of the traditional recipies is B Caapi, psychotria viridis and syrian rue - why do people use all three if it's only necessary to use two? Will the experience last for around eight hours if I don't take the rue, or will it filter away after two or three?

I don't think traditional (read: South American) Ayahuasca recipes include syrian rue, since that is native to the Near East region. Both contain about the same MAO inhibitors but in different ratios. IIRC syrian rue is higher in harmine which is said to be harsher/less pleasant in its effects than the harmaline, which is more abundant in B. Caapi. Additionally, syrian rue contains the related alkaloids vasicine and vasicinone which could potentially produce serious physical side effects (they are uterotonics). Therefore B. Caapi is usually preferred over syrian rue.

Both contain the same actives, so mixing only leads to higher MAOI-doses. No idea if that means longer lasting acute effects. On a side note: these MAOIs all alone can produce strong psychedelic effects in sufficient doses. Do not overshoot, because N,N-DMT on top of that is likely bad.

Hope your successful in your endeavour