DXM extraction - concerns about agent lemon - impurities and oxidation.

[galaxias23]

Hello all. I have a few questions regarding the agent lemon method of extracting DXM and I was hoping someone could help me clear them up. This may get a bit lengthy, but please bare with me.

I have on a few occasions (quite successfully) made DXM freebase extract with friends. It was good, as was expected, and quite easy to do. However over time I began to become suspicious of the residual impurities the evaporated naphtha may leave behind. We had tested a few drops on a mirror as was advised, with no residue, and thought nothing of it, but after some time when I tested a full-scale evaporation (with two separate brands of VM&P naphtha) there was a noticeable, albeit small, amount of clear, oily, inflammable, unevaporable residue left on the plate. I shuddered, then committed to discontinuing the use of freebase. (I suggest anyone who also chooses to make/use DXM freebase, or similarly use naphtha for an evaporation-based extraction, to evaporate an amount equivalent to what one extraction calls for and check for impurities before consuming. I have no idea what that stuff is, but I know it wasn't good for me)

Some time later I learned that the agent lemon tek does not involve the evaporation of any naphtha. This seemed to be the solution I was looking for, but I still have a couple things I'm unsure of.

1. Although the naphtha and citric acid solution are immiscible, is there any way that some of the aforementioned impurities or perhaps even the naphtha itself could somehow react with/bind to something and end up in the final product? Or would the oily nature of the impurities assure that it would remain in solution with the naphtha?

2. I have researched and found that DXM's melting point, where it very quickly degrades due to oxygen, is ~250°F. Water boils at 212°F. I have also read that "Dextromethorphan reacts rapidly with oxygen at temperatures above 360 Kelvin(~188°F)" which is clearly below the boiling point of water.
Is this an issue, or is the fact that the DXM is in solution with the water and not in direct contact with oxygen enough to ensure it's preservation? Would this make it unwise to reduce the volume of liquid via heat as is normally advised? Should the solution instead be heated in a water bath?

I could not find this information posted anywhere, so hopefully someone can shed some light on this for myself and anyone else who may be looking.

Also, does anyone have experience with this method - its efficiency and its apparent purity, or any tips?


Thank you for reading & have a beautiful day.
~Galaxias!

 

[ShamusORiley]

I have successfully used the agent lemon method, or a method very close to it, which substitutes lemon juice for pure citric acid. Personally, I think the idea of using lemon juice is asinine, pure citric acid isn't exactly difficult to get, and using lemon juice is probably what makes the final separation take forever. I've never had to wait more than a few minutes for the final separation using citric acid.

It's an interesting point what you make about DXM's melting point being 250F, and that it reacts at 188F. It seems that being a solution in water does protect it from degrading at those temperatures. My personal experience is that the volume of the dxm/citric acid solution can be significantly harmlessly reduced by rapidly boiling, though I have never felt the need to reduce it to a powder. We've also done it in a stainless steel saucepan, I know not why this method insists that your boiling container be made of glass. I can attest to the strength of two Vicks DryCough bottles worth of DXM reduced to the volume of 1/3 of a shot glass, that it delivers what one would expect, IE, a strong third plateau trip. My friends and I have come to rely upon this method as quick, simple, effective, inexpensive, reliable, and requiring no more equipment than baggies, gloves, a pan, and a hotplate. This method yields a completely clear liquid, I again have no idea why the agent lemon method shows this ghastly brown goo, probably the sugars from the lemon juice caramelizing or something.

The method as with the substitution of citric acid for lemon juice has yet to fail... except for one time when we forgot to separate out the naptha before boiling and it exploded into a massive fireball that nearly caught the deck on fire. Ah, the high school years.... But, as long as you're not a complete and total buffoon like me, it should work well for you every time.

By the way, put your reduced liquid into capsules. Pure DXM+Citric Acid is one of the worst tastes on earth. It's worth the effort to avoid it.

 

[Osbie Feel]

We've also done it in a stainless steel saucepan, I know not why this method insists that your boiling container be made of glass.

Presumably because boiling an acidic solution would strip a layer of metal from the pan. Did you notice that the inside was particularly clean and shiny after boiling? I used to use a Pyrex casserole dish myself.

By the way, put your reduced liquid into capsules. Pure DXM+Citric Acid is one of the worst tastes on earth. It's worth the effort to avoid it.

Yep, it's pretty bad. I jammed a drinking straw as far down my throat as I could without gagging, then sucked it up fast while imagining a strawberry milkshake.

Anyhow, to the OP: I've cooked Agent Lemon a couple of times (with lemon juice) and enjoyed good results. I read that boiling is advisable just as an insurance measure. It didn't seem to affect the potency adversely.

I would point out that DXM is now much easier to source online than it used to be, thank Christ. Makes me smile when I remember the palaver I used to go through to extract the stuff. 8(

 

[galaxias23]

Thank you for your quick responses!

I've decided to go and buy citric acid, as that seems to be the way to go (I actually went out and got it at a hardware store while typing this).
I'd like to share what I've found, and see if anyone can confirm it for me.
This was found on another forum - "150ml water + 1 teaspoon citric acid for each bottle of syrup would be OK. Theoretically, one would need one mole of citric acid for three moles of DXM, but I don't think more will hurt." (Can anyone verify this? I can't seem to find a method of verification myself, though I find no reason to not believe it.)
I did the math based on their molecular weights and developed the following formula: (grams dxm)/(4.23)=(grams of citric acid)
Based upon that formula, to extract one 8 oz (700mg) bottle, one would need no more than a sprinkle or two(~160mg). However, I would at least double this amount to ensure a complete extraction.
Is it safe to assume these calculations are correct?

Additionally, I read this somewhere: "You will want to make sure not to use too much acid in the last stage, as the naptha with bleed down into your acid mixture." I don't understand the logic behind this, is it even possible? Isn't the point of using these two solvents that they are immiscible? The way I understand it, this has nothing to do with PH level, so adjusting the acidity should have no effect on their miscibility. But I'm not sure, which is why I'm asking you all.

I'll take the advice regarding encapsulation, though I envision getting an acidic liquid inside a capsule to be a bit of a task. A pipette should help with that. I think.

Also, how would I go about boiling the liquid in glass/pyrex? The microwave seems obvious, but I've never trusted microwaves, let alone with my active chemicals. Other ideas come to mind, but if anyone has a tried-and-true method, I'd love to hear it.
Edit: based on the formula I compiled before, which shows that it isn't necessary to use a whole teaspoon of citric acid, thereby creating a very acidic solution, could I in theory use a stainless steel pot with minimal corrosion?

I would point out that DXM is now much easier to source online than it used to be, thank Christ. Makes me smile when I remember the palaver I used to go through to extract the stuff.

Would one be going against forum guidelines if they were to ask how one goes about acquiring such a source? Keep in mind this is NOT a request for such a source, but as to the method one would use to go about acquiring one. If this is in violation of anything, please ignore the question.


..I hope the information we've put together has been worth the length of my posts.
I will post a revised method when I've completed the extraction and determined it's effectiveness.

✰

 

[ShamusORiley]

Presumably because boiling an acidic solution would strip a layer of metal from the pan. Did you notice that the inside was particularly clean and shiny after boiling? I used to use a Pyrex casserole dish myself.(

Ooooh... come to think of it, yeah, it did. Well, what didn't kill me... I imagine it would be even worse if someone were to use a coated or nonstick pan. A dash of dissolved teflon, please! At any rate, now I can fully get behind the glassware requirement. My guess is that a carafe would be the best way to go, just for ease of handling and pouring, an old carafe from a coffee maker would probably do the trick, I imagine the local thrift store would have one used for cheap. No real need to risk consuming excess heavy metals, even if your solution is not so acidic.

As far as the amounts of citric acid, I've never come across a situation where more ever spoiled the mixture. Our practice was simply to double the volume of your naptha/dxm solution with water, then saturate the mixture with citric acid and let it separate, which it did rather quickly. My thinking is that an insufficient amount of citric acid would result in a very slow or incomplete separation of the naptha. This "bleeding down" of the naptha makes no sense, I believe your intuition is correct on this, that they are immiscible. Either way, if *somehow* some naptha bled into your solution, it would be evaporated off during the boiling.

As for heating, the very best option is a portable electric hot plate. Walgreens sells a Sylvania single burner hot plate for about $15. You do not want to do the heating indoors... in fact, I'd say don't do any of this indoors! Between the ammonia fumes, the fire hazard, and the potential for spills that would permanently stain any surfaces, why take the chance? Also, don't be tempted to use any gas heat source, like, say, your grill. If you did a poor job on your final separation and some naptha was left in the solution, you could end up with a lovely little fire as the flames from the gas burner ignite the naptha fumes.

As for acquiring it online, well, my understanding is that it would probably be purchased the way you purchase any RC. Let me know if I'm wrong about this, but I think that buying pure dxm is not the same, legally, as buying the syrup. There may be legal ramifications, so check the laws where you live before thinking about it. Although, as always, buying from overseas usually reduces your risks of being caught.

 

[MrDiamondFDC]

I've been doing freebase extractions for 8 years and I've never had a problem with residue left over from Naphtha.

 

[ShamusORiley]

I've been doing freebase extractions for 8 years and I've never had a problem with residue left over from Naphtha.

Did you ever have anything like what the OP describes: "clear, oily, inflammable, unevaporable residue"? Any ideas as to what that might be?

 

[galaxias23]

Well, after thinking it over, it seems like 1tsp per 8 oz bottle should be fine. I would probably use a bit less. I may do two batches, one with a minimal amount and one with a generous amount. It does seem as though using a larger amount would lead to a faster extraction, and I get the idea that creating a stronger CA solution might cause the two to separate faster, by adding some density to the water, or something. But then again, maybe that doesn't make sense. Water with any degree of citric acid is still just water when it comes to miscibility, or is it?

then saturate the mixture with citric acid and let it separate

How much CA would you estimate you used when you did it, if you remember?

Walgreens has a heating device for $15, but it's a 'hot pot', the heating element cannot be removed from the pot I don't think. Still, I should have a hot plate by now, so I'm going to do some research and buy a decent one.
Do you think I would be able to boil it in a pyrex liquid measuring cup? I ask because it has a smaller bottom than top, and I don't know how effectively a hot plate will boil water. I'm not sure I trust the thin walls of a coffee carafe with my product with the heat level involved. I feel like it should be fine, but a carafe wasn't made for boiling water.
Once I get that all sorted out, it's go time.

I've been doing freebase extractions for 8 years and I've never had a problem with residue left over from Naphtha.

How much did you evaporate to test, and what surface was used? Also, what brand naphtha do you use?
I tested ~2-2.5 fl. oz. of naphtha on a ceramic plate, and was left with a very small, yet noticeable (especially in the right light) patch of the described residue where the last of the naphtha evaporated. A much, much smaller evaporation that had been preformed earlier seemingly left no traces, the impurity was only detected in a larger-scale test.

✰

 

[thehallwayceiling]

I have successfully used the agent lemon method, or a method very close to it, which substitutes lemon juice for pure citric acid. Personally, I think the idea of using lemon juice is asinine, pure citric acid isn't exactly difficult to get, and using lemon juice is probably what makes the final separation take forever. I've never had to wait more than a few minutes for the final separation using citrc acid.

I personally prefer to use Countytime Lemonade. It makes the final product not taste so much like death. I don't understand why it would be asinine to use that or lemon juice instead of citric acid.

Also, I don't use naphtha or lighter fluid. I found that xylene (Xylol) actually works much better and it is much easier to acquire. Using xylene actually makes the final separation take less than a minute. It actually separated almost immediately, but I still wait just in case.