Psychedelics and enlightenment.

[Survived Abortion]

If you think you're enlightened, go spend a week with your family. (thanks Ram Dass). :D

I agree with a previous poster who said that we are already enlightened. All wisdom is already within your grasp, because it is a fundamental aspect of what you are. It is just that we get lost in thought due to existing in the form that we do. Your body is wise. It already knows how to keep homeostasis and repair itself - these are things that are not in the realms of your normal awareness, but they are there nonetheless.

There's no such thing as becoming enlightened. It can't be done, whether you are sober or high. The concept is equivalent to trying to score the best goal in football, or master a posture in yoga. We are animals in a constant state of homeostatic flux, and as such there is no apex upon which we as living animals can sit and rest as being the most advanced state of ultimate knowing. Even the Dalai Lama admits he isn't enlightened.

The idea we have of enlightenment is that we should be able to reach a permanent state of remembering, a timeless nirvana of no desire and no emotion. It just doesn't happen like this whilst you are a human being. You're never going to float off like some fairytale image of a buddha and dissolve in to the ether just because you meditated a lot or took a psychedelic. No matter how transcendental your experiences are, whilst you exist in the form of an autonomous human organism within this realm of causality you will always have a body waiting for you in samsara for it to be nourished and taken care of. And the body's drive for survival involves the phenomenon of karma, desire etc. Even the movement of molecules of neurotransmitters between synapses in your brain is karma, because there is motion and effect.

But, this does not mean that you are disconnected from wisdom either. You are wisdom, and you are love. It's just that you are a very complex and continually moving fractal rendering of these most subtle substrates, interacting in complete unity with a whole universe of fractal renderings. The singularity at the core of your being is the same eternal core of infinite love and wisdom it always has been and always will be. But in the story of our interactive cosmic dance, the remebering of that ultimate truth gets temporarily occluded by the nature of story we are taking part in.

It is the inspiration we draw from the beauty of our environment which brings us back to these understandings. Every moment of your life is your teacher. This is why art, music, poetry, storytelling etc is so important to us, because when we follow the correct signposts the muse of nature reminds us of what we are.

As it pertains to psychedelics:

I disagree with the OP that psychedelics are just mental masturbation with no value in existential understanding. What makes you think that the paradigm of your current outlook is the only way to understand reality? If you beleive that you have some understanding of reality in sober awareness that makes sense, then you must accept that that understanding comes from within you, within the realm of your own mind. And what do psychedelics do? They alter how your mind perceives. That means that no matter whether you are sober, drunk, tripping, or meditating, your understanding of reality is a valid one, although it may range from being highly distorted and incomplete, to less distorted and more whole depending on how mindful you are.

It is quite tunnel-visioned to assume that there is some clear-cut difference between the psychedelic state and that of the sober state, such that one is valid and the other is not. Firstly, because there is no point at which you are actually tripping or sober - everything is impermanent and thus simply in a state of flux, rather than jumping from one solid definable state to another. You are always tripping and you are always sober. Any extraneous meaning you attatch to those words is merely a self-limiting thought indulgence. And secondly, because tripping or sober, your mind is perceiving 100% valid facets of existence (even if those facets are visions generated by the mechanism of your thoughts), no matter how distorted the thought-based narrative of the overall picture becomes. The actual substrate of existence you are perceiving is totally true, it is simply how your thoughts weave the tapestry of holistic awareness that defines what the overall picture looks like.

It is not about whether psychedelics provide a better or worse understanding of reality, it is how you use your mind in relation to your thoughts that determines how well you understand.

 

[Thorns Have Roses]

Well I think there isn't much you can find about life then what little knowledge we do have.

Aye, trying to know the world is like trying to fit the all the ocean in a single glass. But if you had the entire ocean, what could you do with it, do you really want or need it? When you thirst, fill your glass and drink from it, that's plenty. (If anything, it's amazing how much we can know!)

What I do know is that life without exception follows one rule: Seek pleasure/avoid pain. .

False dichotomy and gross reductionism. Do you regret every painful experience of your life, would you throw it away for one of all pleasure, do you seek Huxley's Brave New World? Happiness has been put on a golden pedestal by many, but there are plenty of other things of value. If you live only to follow such primitive cues, you're more ape than man. Better to live meaningfully I say, come what may.

 

[StickyChron]

Pain and suffering is what drives humans to learn and better themselves. I would say I've learned more from bad trips, broken relationships, loved ones dying, and failed life experiences than the easy, unpainful times where living doesn't take much thought or effort.

Sometimes I find myself wishing for a bad trip, something that i will have to fight to overcome. Does anyone else experience this?

 

[eLeSaH]

I believe that pleasure is the true source of enlightenment. To receive enlightenment one must see the light, or find the light. To find the light is to come out of a state of darkness where, despite large pupils, one can see hardly anything at all. To become enlightened is therefore to enter the light. Those who are in the light will know when they are there because - by definition - they will see everything but also see nothing. The reason for this is that whilst everything is illuminated, they are also being blinded by the light. The effect of becoming enlightened is therefore also to become blinded. The effect of existing in the darkness is to have dilated pupils, but with no light entering the pupils. As such, the person in darkness is not enlightened - but should there be a source of light nearby, the person in the darkness is most suited to see the light because of their large pupils - this may, conversely, carry the danger of the person becoming blinded by the light even moreso.

Therefore, I believe that one can become enlightened - but I don't think that I am quite there yet.

"despite large pupils, one can see hardly anything at all."
- I would say the light isn't blending at all. If you are already there, have faith and don't fear death. For me it was like my own decision if I have trust and accept going "deeper" that way. It was a decision if I fear death and non-existance or if I believe that there could be more. I had trust and then "it" begins. Time has no meaning as subjectively waaaaay more time passed. Becoming enlightened
or what I think is that it means remembering. If you are there you will remember. World wouldn't be this if we all remembered from the beginning. The experience is not by seeing with your eyes. You can "see" or experience fully but it is more a feeling. You experience the situation way more intense than life could ever be experienced, you "see" not only the front like now but fully 360° in every way.

"The effect of becoming enlightened is therefore also to become blinded"
- I would say the effect is more like waking up from a passive dream. It changed my life. I live my life fully and peaceful now. I am more conscious about what I am doing. I am thinking. I know that every person has the power to do everything.

But before I reached that state, I had quite some hard and exhausting trips. I never tripped for fun. I tripped to solve my personal problems. I had many trips about my family and my relation to them, my personal problems, how we people are acting in life, how a standard life in this society looks like...

But from every hard or facing trip/vision I grew stronger and somehow let those bad emotion or feelings I had behind me till I could "uninstall" my greed, hate, jealousy and egoism.

I would say that situation is a breakthrough in a dmt breakthrough. That particular experience is one year ago and my life was more intense in this year than all the years before that.

Negatives: You wake up in a sleeping society which gets politically abused. We don't live in a democracy even if it's said so. There is much greed and hate, senseless wars and killing and all that stuff that was ignorable as a child. Money is faked as it's just printed by fed, it's just a believe system that the paper is worth something. People don't care about politics, don't want to know about corruption.

All I can do is stay optimistic. You can't force anyone to change them, everyone changes themself. People brought religions, people brought different political systems but that couldn't change the person. There were still bad minded people who used religion as a tool, people still use the political system at the moment for their profit. People who wake up will die one day and new people will be born who start from the beginning. I grew up with the TV. Media had more influence on me than my parents. We the people are just like slaves. We work for paper which we agreed that it has a value, many people are still influencable by money, money can open nearly every door. So what if someone wants to live like a king in this life? He would need much money and sustain the income of more money. No matter how. It's possible and not too hard if you invest enough time in planning and thinking. But is that right? I don't think so. You can manipulate people to invest the time in their life for money, politicians can get bribed with money so that they do what my company needs.

Everyone wants to become happy. But many people think that you will get happy when you have money. So they are also part of this what destroys us. Too many people don't know that they can find happiness and peace within.

I always asked myself why psychedelics are illegal. Now I know. What influence had psychedelics in 67-68? What influence had psychedelics on me? I don't see anything negative beside that people wake up and those in power will most likely lose the power and wealth.

I'm not sure what to do but I try to bring in some ideas to these occupy movements. There are many problems in the world. It's only solvable by multitasking.

 

[Jinux]

Pain and suffering is what drives humans to learn and better themselves. I would say I've learned more from bad trips, broken relationships, loved ones dying, and failed life experiences than the easy, unpainful times where living doesn't take much thought or effort.

Sometimes I find myself wishing for a bad trip, something that i will have to fight to overcome. Does anyone else experience this?

Yes. I also yearn for a good nightmare once in a while. Something I can contrast against, to help me really appreciate the good things I have. To earth me from the electricity of life.

 

[dezz]

Aye, trying to know the world is like trying to fit the all the ocean in a single glass. But if you had the entire ocean, what could you do with it, do you really want or need it? When you thirst, fill your glass and drink from it, that's plenty. (If anything, it's amazing how much we can know!)



False dichotomy and gross reductionism. Do you regret every painful experience of your life, would you throw it away for one of all pleasure, do you seek Huxley's Brave New World? Happiness has been put on a golden pedestal by many, but there are plenty of other things of value. If you live only to follow such primitive cues, you're more ape than man. Better to live meaningfully I say, come what may.

I'm sorry, there is a better way of putting this. Seek pleasure/MINIMIZE pain. In the end yeah the time of pain can be used to learn and better yourself, but in the moment, NO ONE actually chooses to go through such things. The way we work IS really that simple.

 

[eye_wide_open]

Enlightenment exists in a spiritual way that is not religious of requirement.
Only if you believe it does.
The answers are out there.

You'll know when you get there.
You won't believe it until you do.

 

[elf_spice]

DMT is one of my favorite drugs (hence the username). However, I always chuckle when I'm reading the tale of some poor chap who is entrenched in their belief that DMT is some kind of conduit for alien communication. Yeah, right.

The whole notion that entities are trying to contact you is ludicrous and egomaniacal.

I think it was Terrance Mckenna who popularized the notion of machine elves that caused everyone else to jump on the bandwagon. The power of suggestion and confirmation bias are powerful forces. Let someone with no preconceived notions of what to expect of DMT smoke some, and he's bound to get a vastly different trip.

There's a delicate balance between rationalism and mysticism, and the people who hold these psychedelics is such fantastical and absurd terms have lost sight of that balance. No one can question what you observe, but keep your conclusions to yourself unless you're ready to substantiate them.

 

[Survived Abortion]

Happiness has been put on a golden pedestal by many

Ridiculous.

Sorry, pleasure and happiness are two very distinct states of existence (from my perspective). Pleasure and pain are two sides of the same coin. True happiness is a state of utter contentment and bliss, and does not neccesarily rely on any form of pleasure. Happiness is pure being, and it is eternal and thoughtless. Pleasure is simply a temporary satisfaction associated with a subsequent comedown.

Happiness IS what we exist for, and it is our true state. The idea that consciousness exists to experience misery just so that it can subsequently experience a relief from that misery is absurd. Misery is lack of happiness, so how can it be a necessary component of being happy? Anyone who thinks that misery is a necessary aspect of reality that one needs in order to feel happy is a deluded psychopath.

Do you regret every painful experience of your life

No. We are not talking about regret of the past. We are talking about how we can live to be happy now. Learning from the past is important. Just because somebody wants to avoid suffering doesn't mean that they regret the past. Do you think that Buddhist monks sit around crying about the past? No. They want to be happy, and they learn from their own innate wisdom, which can include seeing why past events made them suffer.

would you throw it away for one of all pleasure

No. We are not talking about throwing anything away. We are talking about seeing how we can minimize our unhappiness and maximize our joy. There is no such thing as throwing it away for "one of all pleasure", because as I have pointed out before, whatever action you take to increase "pleasure" will result in further action (of some sort). I don't really think dezz means throwing everything away for one pleasure. I think he means that he aims to be as happy as possible, and minimize suffering. Which is what all beings want, whether you know it or not. Even when you deliberately hurt yourself or others, it is because for some reason you believe that it will bring you happiness on some level (however misguided your actions may be).

Happiness has been put on a golden pedestal by many, but there are plenty of other things of value.

Like what? Because there is no other "thing" you can suggest that is of "value" that isn't just a part and parcel of our pursuit of happiness. Whether it be things like: living/seeking to learn and discover, living/seeking to be noble and ethical, living/seeking to be free, living/seeking to understand yourself, living/seeking to go horseriding, waterskiing, bungy jumping, living/seeking to seek. Everything you do is in the pursuit of happiness. Seeking pleasure is the pursuit of happiness, with the belief that you can find permanent happiness in pleasure.

If you live only to follow such primitive cues, you're more ape than man. Better to live meaningfully I say, come what may.

What's "living meaningfully" in your eyes? I don't see any meaning to anything other than that which we give it. What is meaningful to you may be completely worthless to joe bloggs down the street. Yet the one thing you have in common is that you both want to be happy.

 

[medical_meccanica]

Sorry if this is derailing, but it really snagged me...

DMT is one of my favorite drugs (hence the username). However, I always chuckle when I'm reading the tale of some poor chap who is entrenched in their belief that DMT is some kind of conduit for alien communication. Yeah, right.

The whole notion that entities are trying to contact you is ludicrous and egomaniacal.

I think it was Terrance Mckenna who popularized the notion of machine elves that caused everyone else to jump on the bandwagon. The power of suggestion and confirmation bias are powerful forces. Let someone with no preconceived notions of what to expect of DMT smoke some, and he's bound to get a vastly different trip.

There's a delicate balance between rationalism and mysticism, and the people who hold these psychedelics is such fantastical and absurd terms have lost sight of that balance. No one can question what you observe, but keep your conclusions to yourself unless you're ready to substantiate them.

But how CAN you substantiate them without using the scientific method of injunction, observation and validation? (You are told that if you do x you will see y, you carry out the experiment, doing x and seeing y, and then you ask someone else to carry out the same experiment for validity.)

The scientific method itself then involves suggestion and confirmation bias, so how can you ever substantiate ANYTHING without these factors? Blind experiments? My hunch is that many people have blasted off with no expectations and met entities. We try to create models for our experience, and the best models for entity contact are:

a. A part of your psyche that is SEPARATE from your conscious awareness is communicating with you, or,
b. An entity outside of your psyche is communicating with you.

Ignoring the most obvious and startling question (what is the difference between a and b!?), BOTH are extremely fascinating circumstances. I don't think someone is silly for putting forth a reasonable model for their experience that can be further validated by more experiments. (i.e. inter-dimensional or extraterrestrial contact, remembering that quantum theory and modern cosmology suggest that these are not extremely unlikely scenarios.)

 

[eye_wide_open]

DMT is one of my favorite drugs (hence the username). However, I always chuckle when I'm reading the tale of some poor chap who is entrenched in their belief that DMT is some kind of conduit for alien communication. Yeah, right.

The whole notion that entities are trying to contact you is ludicrous and egomaniacal.

I think it was Terrance Mckenna who popularized the notion of machine elves that caused everyone else to jump on the bandwagon. The power of suggestion and confirmation bias are powerful forces. Let someone with no preconceived notions of what to expect of DMT smoke some, and he's bound to get a vastly different trip.

There's a delicate balance between rationalism and mysticism, and the people who hold these psychedelics is such fantastical and absurd terms have lost sight of that balance. No one can question what you observe, but keep your conclusions to yourself unless you're ready to substantiate them.

Said it before and I'll say it again. It wasn't DMT that did it for me.
It wasn't shrooms either.

Only on MXe did I have a spiritual eye opening and then afterwards I got ego death on mushrooms which I had never had 40 times before. MXE opened my eye for sure and it changed the way all the psychadallic drugs react with me now.
Now when I do mushrooms its a lot different. I start preaching!
I have laughed hysterically in tears after mushroom ego deaths now because the euphoria felt so good. Never before sampling MXE.

I'm afraid to even try DMT now after this eye opening thing from the mxe because who the hell knows what will happen lol. Ive done dmt a few times before and had breakthroughs but that shit was so quick it was just plain confusing. Of course your not going to think something that confused the hell out of you is real.

Try breaking through for hours on mxe several times and then get back to me.
Watch what happens to you. Hehe

Good luck!
I'll be damned if it doesnt start teaching you shit.
Dont fuckinggo wandering around outside either and ignore it while getting in trouble. Go sit in bed and dissociate and watch what the drug can really do to you.

I've seen spirits on huge dose of datura before too but was way too young and unguided to even come close to understanding it. It was more scary and confusing then.


I think any drug that takes you out of body can help you to figure it out if you do it enough and have the right frame of mind. You will see eventually.

 

[eLeSaH]

Yes the mind is very powerful but there is a point with tryptamines and especially if you combine it with JWH-250 it is like having a breakthrough in the breakthrough. It is like a step deeper than the dmt realms and the perception is also different imho. It was more like remembering that I was already there before and will be and identifying as the existance me, not the ego me.

There is no way to comprehend that kind of experience in words even if I had the word amount of libraries. The best thing is to experience yourself.

And yes it changed my life and I think everyone would benefit from it.

 

[OTGee]

Yes the mind is very powerful but there is a point with tryptamines and especially if you combine it with JWH-250 it is like having a breakthrough in the breakthrough. It is like a step deeper than the dmt realms and the perception is also different imho. It was more like remembering that I was already there before and will be and identifying as the existance me, not the ego me.

There is no way to comprehend that kind of experience in words even if I had the word amount of libraries. The best thing is to experience yourself.

And yes it changed my life and I think everyone would benefit from it.

I had similar breakthroughs using synthetic cannabinoids and tryptamines, can create some extreme amounts of euphoria + introspection. I think most psychedelic users problems with enlightenment is they start to see psychedelics are the only source of true knowledge and that is when you cross the line between enlightenment and delusions.

elf_spice, I think that you could use DMT to communicate with alien entites although anyone that thought these entites were physical and not mental beings would be misguided. Of course you can't use DMT to speak to beings from other planets telepathically or even beings from this planet. You could however, speak to entites that are you. They are manifestations of your mental, not physical self. You made them up in your head, they are part of you.

 

[folding_space]

Sorry, pleasure and happiness are two very distinct states of existence (from my perspective). Pleasure and pain are two sides of the same coin.

This. All human actions are intrinsically selfish, but that doesn't mean that everyone is or should be a hedonist.

As for the guy who thinks that MXE is the only way to attain true "spiritual awakening," you should really stop taking drugs. They can make you pretty delusional if you let them.

 

[eLeSaH]

I had similar breakthroughs using synthetic cannabinoids and tryptamines, can create some extreme amounts of euphoria + introspection. I think most psychedelic users problems with enlightenment is they start to see psychedelics are the only source of true knowledge and that is when you cross the line between enlightenment and delusions.

It's hard to put those experiences in words but let me tell you that psychedelics only are not the only way of true knowledge. There are many paths regarding this in life and most don't need psychedelics. But yeah psychedelics can be a shortcut imho and shouldn't be just thrown away as mumbojumbo.
I mean it's already a good step to think during trips about own emotional problems, about problems from the past which still are kinda hidden, about your own character, about life in general, what you hope out of it etc etc. I mean there are so many possible questions which can be formed through ideas.
But that trip just answered my questions about existance for me and that's already a big step for me as I'm still young. From that point on life is just more intense and positive. I am the master of my life. Back then I kinda was passively watching my life, hard to describe. It's just more active. More thinking, more ideas, more creativity with texts or instruments.

I know psychedelics can produce crazy hallucinations, like dmt and salvia mess around with reality. But it was just different than those "breakthroughs".
And if I know read things about buddhism, bardo thodol, or koran or bible, it all makes more sense. It's like there is a different understanding with this background.

I mean I lost my fear of death but I have now a very deep respect and love for life. And this attitude changed me much. I mean things like trying not to be greedy, no hate, or learning not to lie, even when it hurts someone. It's like gaining full control over your body and mind.

Even if it's just hallucinations and if we are just less haired talking ape living on a rock in a hostile universe, it changes you in a very positive way. And I think instead of trying to devalue other peoples experience we should just look and know that there could be possibilities to find happiness and peace within. There is no need for everyone to do it.
But I don't know. Having meaningful trips instead of pure psychedelia or confusion like for me on salvia are a better use of the precious time on psychedelics.

Do we have a soul? Is there a pre and afterlife? Is the ego just a program which gets self programmed since birth? On which "dimension" does the talking ego in my head exist? Who is the identity which listens to the ego? Is there a god or something else that is described from different perspectives through religions? What is this light reference which you hear or read in some? Was it me? Was it god? Imho yes but that would be again just my interpretation. Is there any way to interpret that experience through words? Isn't it that people have to experience it themself so that they understand?

And what's the deal about the mxe? I mean he's nice that he tells us that it worked for him. Many people are trying to find something more meaningful with psychedelics instead just drooling around in pure bliss and visuals.

Why do you guys want to control how he uses it without you even knowing how the effect is? How can you judge about something you don't have experience with? Isn't the whole drug topic about people who don't know shit telling others what they have to do and not?
Thank you eye_wide_open!

 

[evilimmortal]

(sorry for spelling English is not my best language) As young I have allways wondered about the psychedelic experience, had the oppurtunity to take shrooms but only after I had read a lot of information about it. Some one mentioned Mr. Terence McKenna (R.I.P) and he has the vocabulary and is articulate enough to put the experience in words. There are lot of good material with McKenna "The tree of life" for an example on a sort of "tube" on internet.

I had/and still have problems accepting the reality for what it is and the feeling that the human kind might not survive if changes takes place. People must be brainwashed pretty good not to think more about the problems with toxic products flooding the earth etc. They don't call it TV-programs for nothing, you know.

Psychedelics takes away the boundaries and (I don't think it is a must) I have two feet on earth also because quantum physics can suggest that what you realise or is happening to you after taking psychedelics can be for real!

Terence also predicted the internet explosion - think he mentioned it 1977 and was right on... in the middle of the nineties... "don't confuse my mind with facts -it's made up" goes both ways.

When some of you say delusions is something bad, remember it may well be a deluded mind having these delusions. And do not forget why the safest entheogens is sheduled. It might make you think outside the box. I have problems with doing that, one time I was on my way to be a numerologist, had psychotic breakdown that leaved me with photographic memory.

Not many know that there minds are capable of. I have never done DMT but 5-meo-DMT. I feel like I am in some kind of symbiosis with nature and it is nature that brings us these visionary plants, so why not talk to her. I feel enlightened but I am not sure I like it. My mind have expanded, that's something I have learnt to dealt with. But when you know your telephone will be ringing some second before it does... well, its happening. Am I a neo-Shaman?

 

[medical_meccanica]

I think most psychedelic users problems with enlightenment is they start to see psychedelics are the only source of true knowledge and that is when you cross the line between enlightenment and delusions.

I agree!

elf_spice, I think that you could use DMT to communicate with alien entites although anyone that thought these entites were physical and not mental beings would be misguided. Of course you can't use DMT to speak to beings from other planets telepathically or even beings from this planet.

What are you basing this on?

You could however, speak to entites that are you. They are manifestations of your mental, not physical self. You made them up in your head, they are part of you.

I agree!

 

[folding_space]

And what's the deal about the mxe? I mean he's nice that held tells us that it worked for him. Many people are trying to find something more meaningful with psychedelics instead just drooling around in pure bliss and visuals.

Why do you guys want to control how he uses it without you even knowing how the effect is? How can you judge about something you don't have experience with? Isn't the whole drug topic about people who don't know shit telling others what they have to do and not?
Thank you eye_wide_open!

Because it didn't work for him. He's raving about some sort of profound epiphany but hasn't actually communicated the slightest bit of content, other than his suggestion that if we all get blasted out of our heads on MXE, we'll understand too. Maybe this state is making him happy right now, but the fun isn't gonna last because there's an actual world out there that we all have to contend with, and it tends to not be so nice to people who have no idea what's going on. I don't agree with the OP, but eye_wide_open is making a stronger case for his point of view than any of his own posts.

 

[dezz]

Psychedelics create a "feeling of enlightenment" stronger then enlightenment itself. Yes most who go on and on about how much knowledge they gained, can't tell you what that knowledge actually is. They often have a hard time describing what actually changed them. It's because you gained NOTHING. Honestly you are enjoying an afterglow of the trip. Nothing more. More often then not the feeling fades away after a month or two and your back to your old self. Unless you trip again ofcourse :')

 

[Ismene]

Enlightenment doesn't actually exist - it's a word some religious fruitcake made up two thousand years ago in order to have a goal for his followers. It's like a non-existent lottery win. Keep buying the ticket - doing your meditation, sweeping the ashram and telling yourself that in 65 years time you'll become "enlightened". It isn't going to happen. It's a con to keep you studying buddhism etc.

Psychedelics are seperate to any religious ideas such as "enlightenment". They're the only path that is simply down to your and your experience with the drug. There's no man-made shit in between unless you try and pollute the experience by trying to bring religious ideas like enlightenment into it.