Caffeine vs Other Stimulants in relation to bi-polar

[Aetherius Rimor]

In my self-experimentation with stimulants, I've discovered the following:

All eliminate depression symptoms, and for my own body chemistry, caffeine is far more euphoric than amphetamines or cocaine.

However since I switched over to caffeine, from using cocaine/amphetamines, I've noticed that unlike the other two classes of stimulants, caffeine seems to exacerbate the manic phase of bi-polar quite a bit.

When I was using cocaine regularly (usually around 50mg every 75 minutes during an 8 to 10 hour work period), the only negative side effects were the post binge jitters and "tweaked out" feeling, and occasional mild amphetamine psychosis.

I ended up switching over to Adderall primarily because it eliminated the jitters/tweaked out post work feeling. I would use typically 15mg of adderall every 4 hours. The only negative effects from my Adderall usage was slight bit of insomnia that Melatonin resolved nicely, and really bad body odor.

I ran out of Adderall at one point, and tried caffeine though.

At a usage of about 200mg every 4 hours (2 to 3 times a day), the only regular side effect has been from it's diuretic properties. Being far more euphoric, and with almost no really negative side effects, I switched over to using solely caffeine.

However during this, time period I have had the first really bad hyper manic phase. The last time it ever got this bad was over 10 years ago when I was in high school and on prescription Theophylline for Asthma (also a Xanthine stimulant). I have not taken any medication for my bi-polar in 6 years, and have not had any issues since I stopped taking Theophylline for asthma, so I'm under the impression Theophylline probably contributed to the issues I had when I was younger which lead to the diagnosis of bi-polar.

Now that I'm taking caffeine though, the really bad hyper manic phase has come back.

I'm now pretty certain that Xanthine stimulants exacerbate the manic symptoms of bi-polar.

With that in mind, I have three questions.

1. Has anyone else experienced this similar scenario with caffeine making manic symptoms worse, while other stimulants do not?
2. Why do other stimulants not provoke the manic phase, while caffeine does? I am theorizing it has a similar root cause to Caffeine being far more euphoric for me than other stimulants as well.
3. Answer to two probably shares some overlap with this question too: What are the similarities and differences in neurological pathways that caffeine has an effect on compared to other stimulants?

 

[Dysphoric]

caffeine is far more euphoric than amphetamines.

Ummmmmmmmmmmmm.......

I would use typically 15mg of adderall every 4 hours.

This makes a little more sense. But still...

Caffeine, in my experience can be minorly euphoric, but is way, way, way too Peripheral to be enjoyable.

I would also think that Amphetamines would induce Manic states even more so than caffeine.

 

[Aetherius Rimor]

Caffeine, in my experience can be minorly euphoric, but is way, way, way too Peripheral to be enjoyable.

It is extremely euphoric to me, to the point that I'd prefer it to MDMA in the environments it is typically used, as the only thing MDMA does for me that caffeine doesn't is give me a huge desire to cuddle, with more side effects.

I would also think that Amphetamines would induce Manic states even more so than caffeine.

As would I, hence the utter confusion. I am thinking in someone with a typical brain chemistry this is probably very true. I suppose it could be sheer coincidence that I have not had an intense manic episode throughout months of cocaine/adderall usage, and it just happened to occur when I started using caffeine instead. However it still makes me suspect it has the effect it does on my manic symptoms after I learned I was on Theophylline the last time I had real bad manic phases.

This confusion is what lead me to post this. Caffeine gives me an extreme confidence boost, lots of energy, a strong body high, and eliminates my anxiety. Assuming Walgreen's generic caffeine pills are indeed just caffeine.... it's very confusing.

I refuse to use stimulants at anything more than a "therapeutic" type dose, hence the low dosages described above. Too worried about cardiotoxicity to do any more, especially when the euphoria from psychedelics is far more enjoyable and physically safer.

If anyone reading this thread has ideas, even if speculative, I'd really appreciate it. I'm looking for any information that could point me in a direction for my research to help me figure out what's going on.

 

[pbuilder]

Aren't manic phases like the good part of bi-polar disorder where you feel really euphoric and motivated?

Or are they gonna make you give in to your urge to go on a killing spree or something lol...

8(

 

[Dysphoric]

It is extremely euphoric to me, to the point that I'd prefer it to MDMA

That's not caffeine than, that's the manic state that you're preferring...

 

[Aetherius Rimor]

Aren't manic phases like the good part of bi-polar disorder where you feel really euphoric and motivated?

General consensus is: Hypomanic = good, Hypermanic = bad.

Hypermanic state is associated with extreme irritability, overconfidence, aggressiveness, etc. The slightest annoyances, mistakes or offenses will send me into a rage, where I'd get extremely verbally abusive. Luckily I normally only get this way a couple times a year, and am very good at avoiding people or restraining myself to avoid consequences. After I started using caffeine though, the last episode I could not restrain myself at all, and it was far more pronounced than usual.

Hypomanic just referring to a mild mania, where... well... all the symptoms caffeine gives me on a regular basis. Which leads me to my next response...

That's not caffeine than, that's the manic state that you're preferring...

Now that you mention it, when I take caffeine, all the effects are identical to a hypomanic state that I would occasionally get when completely clean of psychoactive substances.

I think you're right. I think caffeine is actually triggering a hypomanic state... and whatever causes the shift upwards in manic symptoms that normally would just make me hypomanic, increases it to hypermanic?

If true, that would explain my unusual "euphoric" response to caffeine, and explain the increased likelihood of a hyper manic episode.

Now the only question that I guess remains is what action caffeine has triggers this:

I'm assuming it's effects as a nonselective Phosphodiesterase inhibitor might be responsible based on what I'm reading. The adenosine receptor antagonist effects to me wouldn't appear to cause it.

 

[Arsenic_X]

I have direct experience with bi-polar and stimulants, primarily with vyvanse (lisdexamphetamine) and concerta (methylphenidate). I was put on 30 mg vyvanse first, which caused me to cry randomly about small things, and i would have major mood swings, usually wayyyy down. i had a bi-polar breakdown at school once, i felt so embarrassed. i was then put on low dose concerta, which seemed to leave my mood stable. im now up to 54 mg concerta, and have been on it for about 3 months now. i find that atleast for me, amphetamines severely effected my bi-polar. caffeine is never a problem for me, in fact its part of my daily medicine. i have to add that im 20 yrs old, so things are probably different for me, at my age, and all my mental problems, but lets not go there

 

[Aetherius Rimor]

Vyvanse also hasn't effected me negatively in this aspect.

And I definitely sympathize with the school break down. That happened to me too once in high school. Was taken out of all AP classes and put in all regular classes. Last period of the day was in one of the few classes that remained the same, and I went to the corner, balled up and started crying with a huge panic attack.

This was during the phase in my life that I absolutely hated drugs, and my mom told me something humorous about the event though.

The nurses kept asking me what I took, and I didn't understand what they meant, and told them my asthma medication earlier that morning.

When my mom showed up and clued me in they were referring to illicit drugs, I went from crying in anxiety to pissed off that they would think I would take drugs.

In retrospect... pretty humorous.

 

[Renz Envy]

During a caffeine high, I care much less about how others view me than while on amphetamine.

During high school I would go into long rants and practically give a stand-up comedy routine while drinking highly caffeinated drinks. I enjoy the stimulant a lot, but like cocaine, I find it's better for socializing and not so much for concentration.

Amphetamine is one of those stimulants, I believe, that after the honeymoon phase, it really requires either an extremely high dose or a fairly low dose to be used properly. This is where we get a difference between a junkie and someone that legitimately wants to medicinally help their issue.