There have been deaths and arrests around my area from Ecstasy tainted with PMMA. I don't know much about chemistry, but why would people create this drug and sell it as E? I think 8 people or so have died from it, so why would someone manufacture it? The guy they busted had almost a kilo of it, so I assume that a lot of people did it and only a few died... but still, from what I read, the stuff is very dangerous. Is it that easier to manufacture than MDMA?
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Why PMMA?
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WatMyConditionIsIn
Bluelighter
simple answer: PROHIBITION!!!
slightly less simple answer: precursors are cheaper/more available... someone correct me if im wrong
slightly less simple answer: precursors are cheaper/more available... someone correct me if im wrong
Penthos
Bluelighter
PMMA isn't specifically illegal in Canada. As far as I know it's only "Restricted". Thus making it an attractive choice for dirty dealers. Didn't know they busted the guys, that's pretty sweet at least.
Darksidesam
Bluelight Crew
It's a tragic and unnecessary loss of life.
PMMA has also been found present in the pills in the UK http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/threads/590014-WARNING-Blue-Einstein-e-mc2-pills
PMMA has also been found present in the pills in the UK http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/threads/590014-WARNING-Blue-Einstein-e-mc2-pills
That's what I don't get though. PMA/PMMA doesn't have any positive effects as far as I know, it's not something that would make people even entertain the thought of purchasing that press again. Why not just press completely inactive tabs? Pipes or RC's I can kind of understand as a lot of stupid people will think they are E and will continue to buy them but PMA/PMMA only drives customers away. Anyone in the drug underworld will tell you that death is bad for business and brings unnecessary police attention, that's why this makes such little sense to me.
poopstation
Bluelighter
- Joined
- Oct 13, 2009
- Messages
- 375
PMA is brutal, PMMA is more forgiving but still very dangerous and likely to be lethal if mistaken for and treated as MDMA. i suspect i've had PMMA or PMMA/MDMA combo in a pill back in 2002, the experience was completely off the charts and rolling to the point of delirium (def not MDA, i know MDA's psychedelic delirium quite well), which due to my tolerance is not something that happens. this curiosity has made me research PMMA a LOT over the past many years and have had the luck to talk speak with people who was curious about it like me. the difference is they synthesized it, so they knew what they had and how much they had, their stories were very interesting and led me to believe that PMxx's are volatile from person to person. so i have a bit of info to share and what better thread than here at bluelight, in hopes of spreading what i've learned in the name of educating people more about the para-methoxy amphetamine family and harm reduction.
PMA/PMMA come from anethole and is produced the same way that MDA/MDMA is produced from safrole (if going the propenylbenzene route). so it's a simple plug-and-play.
PMA/PMMA do have positive effects but they have MAOI properties so their window of positive effects is very narrow and you never know how much PMA/PMMA a pill would contain. the window for positive effects from PMA is very slim and varies greatly from person to person. like the MDA to MDMA comparison, PMA is more "rough around the edges" than it's n-methylated cousin PMMA, causes more stimulation and also posses more psychedelic properties. the n-methylation of PMA produces PMMA and it follows suite with the rest of the psychedelic amphetamines in that when n-methylated it is a weaker compound (some of the n-methylated psychedelic amphetamines like TMMA-2, MMDMA, DMMDMA become weak to the point of having virtually no effect) but provides a smoother high. the danger is that it retains the MAOI properties that the para-methoxy amphetamines are infamous for. the window for positive effects from PMMA is larger because it's a less stimulating high than that of PMA and because it's MAOI properties are a bit weaker than that of PMA but make no mistake about it, any MAOI properties combined with a strong serotonin releaser is bad news. so yeah it's a bit safer than PMA but still much more dangerous than any other MDMA substitute due to their MAOI properties they potentiate themselves to the point of OD (serotonin syndrome). the window of positive effects from PMA is so slim that after talking to people who accurately dosed pure PMA, they enjoy positive effects for a short period of time then are struck with a very delirious trip or intense headache (first sign of serotonin syndrome). whereas after speaking with people who accurately dosed pure PMMA, i'd say it was 50/50 in that some people loved it and rolled quite nice off it and the other half found it boring or had worrying physical symptoms. some people are definitely more sensitive to these materials than others. personally i've been wanting to try PMMA for quite some time and eventually will give it a go, dosing Shulgin-style - very low, sub-threshold and increasing little by little one session at a time spaced over time and a ceiling of a specific dosage that once i read it - that's it / end trial. that's just because i'm curious if i've had PMMA in a pill before or not.
i'd certainly never recommend anybody take any of the para-methoxy amphetamines or cathinones. even if you find great rolly euphoria in the n-methylated version, it's playing with fire. even from the people who liked PMMA a lot, they had to deal with worse serotonin depletion than if it were MDMA, emotions were a mess/etc. PMMA seems to be a much stronger serotonin releaser than MDMA, the only upside is that it's not as neurotoxic as MDMA. it's more selective at 5ht release and not so much at DA release, so it's a more intense serotonin release/euphoria (MAOI properties) but the dopamine synergy isn't there so it seems more flooring and less energetic than pure MDMA - which is already flooring and euphoric, the lack of DA release is where some ppl find it boring and some ppl find it amazing, personal preference. PMA may cause DA release because it's certainly the more dangerous and stimulating between the two of them but i'm not sure, i've only seen the ki/km values for PMMA and not PMA, or if i did then i don't recall the ones for PMA. but the trade-off is that you can easily OD from a slightly larger than moderate dose due to its MAOI properties (or god forbid you mix PMA/PMMA with legit MDMA, guaranteed serotonin syndrome), that's hardly a trade-off. you can recover from MDMA neurotoxicity in a matter of days/weeks, you may not recover from an OD. read the link above that darksidedsam posted, the description sounds exactly like an OD on PMMA i once heard about. although an OD on PMMA and MDMA will admittedly probably look the same - serotonin syndrome. with PMMA you're probably more likely to see perhaps sedated delirium faster than MDMA, especially if the MDMA is a pressed pill it may have a stimulant adulterant in it which may lead to hypertension faster. both would like lead to convulsing as the next stage, then it's off to the ER where hopefully they can IV the person in time with a benzodiazepine before the damage is done. this is the only difference i can see potentially taking place.
i wouldn't doubt it people are putting MDMA/PMMA in pills because PMMA is cheap to make (anethole is cheap and easy to acquire) where MDMA is expensive. by potentiating the MDMA you can use much much less and make it perhaps stronger than any MDMA-only pill. but that's a potentially lethal combination, the customers will either roll their balls off or if they decide to redose they might very well OD. the problem with MDMA/PMMA mixes is that they will likely pass marquis tests as long as there's enough MDMA present. all of a sudden you have a pill that provides a stronger roll than all the other pills out there and it only cost you a fraction of the price to manufacture. as far as them knowing the danger about redoing or taking multiple, how easy it is to OD... they are probably not ignorant but focused more on the money and assume a mentality of "if they're taking that many pills then they're bound to OD anyway" to clear their conscious. yes the drug world is full of heartless scumbags. but that's not to rule out that some of them might just be new to pressing pills. they aren't educated on things of this nature but were presented with the proper resources to plunge in head-first. so there they go, with little knowledge of chemistry of pharmacology, took a dose themselves a few times perhaps and found it great then decided to cash in, so they'd plead ignorance. i don't really see any third option available, either they know what they're doing or they don't. regardless of their reason for doing it, it never fails that ever since PMA emerged in the late 90's you tend to see PMxx's pop up from time to time leading to a small string of deaths that are blamed on MDMA.
if i remember right, the MAOI effects of PMA/PMMA take a little while to kick in, so the drug will take effect and seem deceivingly mild then the MAOI takes place and the effect is potentiated suddenly. a person i know dosed 150mg MDMA then on the comedown took a known amount of pure PMMA (i won't disclose the amount b/c i don't want people trying this) and said it was the hardest he'd ever rolled in his life, this is a guy with a ridiculous amount of experience, much moreso than myself and i've been rolling for over 10 years. he did the same with his wife and a slightly lesser amount of PMMA for the comedown, she had an amazing roll as well. no redoses were done of course, he knew what he was taking and knew the dangers. then he dosed a good friend giving him the same amount of what he had taken initially, this friend was larger in stature and weight but quickly developed worrying physical symptoms of a tension headache so bad the threw up, he was sweating and exhibiting hypothermia, my friend was very worried and was a step away from taking him to the ER but the worrying symptoms subsided and his friend was able to enjoy the effects once the peak wore off somewhat, his friend agreed it was the strongest he had ever rolled. so you never know just how much it varies from individual to individual and the therapeutic window is slim, very slim between a good time / a great time / and a potential overdose. my friend gave another friend a known amount of PMMA, this guy unknowingly took more of the PMMA when my friend wasn't looking - thinking he's a "hardhead and can take it", he had a near-death experience and at that point my friend called it quits with his experimentation with PMMA.
hopefully all of this info sheds some light on the PMA/PMMA issue. you can see why i would be curious to try it but at the same time, the PMxx family are not compounds to be taken loosely. your life is at risk by playing with them and redoses are out of the question. the stories i have heard from PMA are much more worrying than the ones with PMMA. but again, the problem with pills or even powder is that unless you are a chemist or know a chemist - you don't know how much is really in there. plus these PMMA/MDMA combos are very dangerous, the fact that the presence of an MDxx will allow the marquis to test positive if in sufficient quantities and the fact that it just seems like a very intense roll can be deceptive. be careful out there.
sorry for the long-winded post but it's a topic in which i have a lot of information to share. i hope it provides some insight as to the who/where/why dangers of PMxx's and why exactly they are sometimes utilized in pills even though there are known dangers.
PMA/PMMA come from anethole and is produced the same way that MDA/MDMA is produced from safrole (if going the propenylbenzene route). so it's a simple plug-and-play.
PMA/PMMA do have positive effects but they have MAOI properties so their window of positive effects is very narrow and you never know how much PMA/PMMA a pill would contain. the window for positive effects from PMA is very slim and varies greatly from person to person. like the MDA to MDMA comparison, PMA is more "rough around the edges" than it's n-methylated cousin PMMA, causes more stimulation and also posses more psychedelic properties. the n-methylation of PMA produces PMMA and it follows suite with the rest of the psychedelic amphetamines in that when n-methylated it is a weaker compound (some of the n-methylated psychedelic amphetamines like TMMA-2, MMDMA, DMMDMA become weak to the point of having virtually no effect) but provides a smoother high. the danger is that it retains the MAOI properties that the para-methoxy amphetamines are infamous for. the window for positive effects from PMMA is larger because it's a less stimulating high than that of PMA and because it's MAOI properties are a bit weaker than that of PMA but make no mistake about it, any MAOI properties combined with a strong serotonin releaser is bad news. so yeah it's a bit safer than PMA but still much more dangerous than any other MDMA substitute due to their MAOI properties they potentiate themselves to the point of OD (serotonin syndrome). the window of positive effects from PMA is so slim that after talking to people who accurately dosed pure PMA, they enjoy positive effects for a short period of time then are struck with a very delirious trip or intense headache (first sign of serotonin syndrome). whereas after speaking with people who accurately dosed pure PMMA, i'd say it was 50/50 in that some people loved it and rolled quite nice off it and the other half found it boring or had worrying physical symptoms. some people are definitely more sensitive to these materials than others. personally i've been wanting to try PMMA for quite some time and eventually will give it a go, dosing Shulgin-style - very low, sub-threshold and increasing little by little one session at a time spaced over time and a ceiling of a specific dosage that once i read it - that's it / end trial. that's just because i'm curious if i've had PMMA in a pill before or not.
i'd certainly never recommend anybody take any of the para-methoxy amphetamines or cathinones. even if you find great rolly euphoria in the n-methylated version, it's playing with fire. even from the people who liked PMMA a lot, they had to deal with worse serotonin depletion than if it were MDMA, emotions were a mess/etc. PMMA seems to be a much stronger serotonin releaser than MDMA, the only upside is that it's not as neurotoxic as MDMA. it's more selective at 5ht release and not so much at DA release, so it's a more intense serotonin release/euphoria (MAOI properties) but the dopamine synergy isn't there so it seems more flooring and less energetic than pure MDMA - which is already flooring and euphoric, the lack of DA release is where some ppl find it boring and some ppl find it amazing, personal preference. PMA may cause DA release because it's certainly the more dangerous and stimulating between the two of them but i'm not sure, i've only seen the ki/km values for PMMA and not PMA, or if i did then i don't recall the ones for PMA. but the trade-off is that you can easily OD from a slightly larger than moderate dose due to its MAOI properties (or god forbid you mix PMA/PMMA with legit MDMA, guaranteed serotonin syndrome), that's hardly a trade-off. you can recover from MDMA neurotoxicity in a matter of days/weeks, you may not recover from an OD. read the link above that darksidedsam posted, the description sounds exactly like an OD on PMMA i once heard about. although an OD on PMMA and MDMA will admittedly probably look the same - serotonin syndrome. with PMMA you're probably more likely to see perhaps sedated delirium faster than MDMA, especially if the MDMA is a pressed pill it may have a stimulant adulterant in it which may lead to hypertension faster. both would like lead to convulsing as the next stage, then it's off to the ER where hopefully they can IV the person in time with a benzodiazepine before the damage is done. this is the only difference i can see potentially taking place.
i wouldn't doubt it people are putting MDMA/PMMA in pills because PMMA is cheap to make (anethole is cheap and easy to acquire) where MDMA is expensive. by potentiating the MDMA you can use much much less and make it perhaps stronger than any MDMA-only pill. but that's a potentially lethal combination, the customers will either roll their balls off or if they decide to redose they might very well OD. the problem with MDMA/PMMA mixes is that they will likely pass marquis tests as long as there's enough MDMA present. all of a sudden you have a pill that provides a stronger roll than all the other pills out there and it only cost you a fraction of the price to manufacture. as far as them knowing the danger about redoing or taking multiple, how easy it is to OD... they are probably not ignorant but focused more on the money and assume a mentality of "if they're taking that many pills then they're bound to OD anyway" to clear their conscious. yes the drug world is full of heartless scumbags. but that's not to rule out that some of them might just be new to pressing pills. they aren't educated on things of this nature but were presented with the proper resources to plunge in head-first. so there they go, with little knowledge of chemistry of pharmacology, took a dose themselves a few times perhaps and found it great then decided to cash in, so they'd plead ignorance. i don't really see any third option available, either they know what they're doing or they don't. regardless of their reason for doing it, it never fails that ever since PMA emerged in the late 90's you tend to see PMxx's pop up from time to time leading to a small string of deaths that are blamed on MDMA.
if i remember right, the MAOI effects of PMA/PMMA take a little while to kick in, so the drug will take effect and seem deceivingly mild then the MAOI takes place and the effect is potentiated suddenly. a person i know dosed 150mg MDMA then on the comedown took a known amount of pure PMMA (i won't disclose the amount b/c i don't want people trying this) and said it was the hardest he'd ever rolled in his life, this is a guy with a ridiculous amount of experience, much moreso than myself and i've been rolling for over 10 years. he did the same with his wife and a slightly lesser amount of PMMA for the comedown, she had an amazing roll as well. no redoses were done of course, he knew what he was taking and knew the dangers. then he dosed a good friend giving him the same amount of what he had taken initially, this friend was larger in stature and weight but quickly developed worrying physical symptoms of a tension headache so bad the threw up, he was sweating and exhibiting hypothermia, my friend was very worried and was a step away from taking him to the ER but the worrying symptoms subsided and his friend was able to enjoy the effects once the peak wore off somewhat, his friend agreed it was the strongest he had ever rolled. so you never know just how much it varies from individual to individual and the therapeutic window is slim, very slim between a good time / a great time / and a potential overdose. my friend gave another friend a known amount of PMMA, this guy unknowingly took more of the PMMA when my friend wasn't looking - thinking he's a "hardhead and can take it", he had a near-death experience and at that point my friend called it quits with his experimentation with PMMA.
hopefully all of this info sheds some light on the PMA/PMMA issue. you can see why i would be curious to try it but at the same time, the PMxx family are not compounds to be taken loosely. your life is at risk by playing with them and redoses are out of the question. the stories i have heard from PMA are much more worrying than the ones with PMMA. but again, the problem with pills or even powder is that unless you are a chemist or know a chemist - you don't know how much is really in there. plus these PMMA/MDMA combos are very dangerous, the fact that the presence of an MDxx will allow the marquis to test positive if in sufficient quantities and the fact that it just seems like a very intense roll can be deceptive. be careful out there.
sorry for the long-winded post but it's a topic in which i have a lot of information to share. i hope it provides some insight as to the who/where/why dangers of PMxx's and why exactly they are sometimes utilized in pills even though there are known dangers.
Last edited:
Folley
Bluelighter
DMA was going all around Wa last year around this time, yellow and green Ninja Turtles. People seriously loved that shit.
They were all calling it "synthetic mescaline". Dumb asses. I actually wanted to find some at the beginning of my rolling career, Im sooooo glad I never did. There were like 3 deaths in Wa, and a few more around the country (the fuckers made it all the way to the east coast)
PMMA is a very close chemical to MDMA, structure wise. You do the same exact sysnthesis for it, but instead of safrole oil, they use anise oil. If you've ever had a drink made with anise, you know that its shitty lol. While sassy root beer is delicious... kinda the same thing here lol
PMMA is para-methoxy-methamphetamine, so its most likely controlled under analogue acts. Maybe not in Canada
They were all calling it "synthetic mescaline". Dumb asses. I actually wanted to find some at the beginning of my rolling career, Im sooooo glad I never did. There were like 3 deaths in Wa, and a few more around the country (the fuckers made it all the way to the east coast)
PMMA is a very close chemical to MDMA, structure wise. You do the same exact sysnthesis for it, but instead of safrole oil, they use anise oil. If you've ever had a drink made with anise, you know that its shitty lol. While sassy root beer is delicious... kinda the same thing here lol
PMMA is para-methoxy-methamphetamine, so its most likely controlled under analogue acts. Maybe not in Canada
LSDMDMA&
Bluelighter
- Joined
- Feb 6, 2010
- Messages
- 12,827
wat?
you dont fuck up and get PMA/PMMA.
thats intentional.
you dont fuck up and get PMA/PMMA.
thats intentional.
JimSteele
Bluelighter
I am pretty sure that PMMA reacts black/purple to marquis (like MDMA) which would be one particularly fucked up sleaze ball reason to put it in pills.
Penthos
Bluelighter
There's a silver lining to this story and that is that Canada is now being supplied with the Mandelin reagent. Previously Canadians had to order it from the UK with the risk of seizure at customs. I assume it's the same with the states since DanceSafe doesn't offer the Mandelin reagent.
DSNathan
Greenlighter
FWIW, we were already in the process of making the Mandelin kit before the PMMA story broke out of Canada. Just so happened that the chemicals finally arrived after months of waiting right as this all started coming out. We originally were getting it because they can detect Ketamine, and ketamine as a market has gotten a lot bigger and a lot sketchier.
Nathan
DanceSafe
Penthos
Bluelighter
Yaaaay! Thanks guys :D
I know this is off-topic for this thread, but is there an ETA on those kits?
DSNathan
Greenlighter
There are only a few of us doing this, and there are many irons in the fire. Right now our graphic designer is working on the new color charts and instructions, and we need to do some writing for it as well. Things tend to go a lot slower than I expect, but hoping for a few weeks. I don't even have a prototype of the Mandelin yet to play with. If anyone is interested in throwing some ideas around regarding the instructions or color charts, please feel free to email us at dsusa -at- dancesafe -dot- org.
Nathan
xtcnation
Bluelighter
- Joined
- Jul 16, 2010
- Messages
- 462
Im sure i heard that pmma can be produced by accident by a chemist attempting to make mdma. The final product actually being pmma. I know there is some evil people out there but surely most wouldnt intentionally put it in tablets and sell it as mdma?
MazDan
Bluelight Crew
There have been numerous deaths related to pma sold as mdma in Australia and most have led to arrests of the dealers and maybe higher up the tree as well.
Whenever there is an outburst of pma related problems its a good idea to post the links to the info here at Bluelight to forwarn as many as possible.
Whenever there is an outburst of pma related problems its a good idea to post the links to the info here at Bluelight to forwarn as many as possible.