TDS Social thread vs. 2012.1

[DexterMeth]

Cool. And when I say my, that means me.

 

[skillz~4~thrillz]

n3o and Dave......thanks for letting me know about Sweet P. And dw,too. I hope they both are happy and well. and yes,n30,it was last may that Sweet P last posted. I checked her post history when JSp bought up the fact that he had not seen her around and missed her.

hope all of you are well and know that you are loved.................skillz

 

[pharmakos]

Cool. And when I say my, that means me.

your sentences don't make much grammatical sense then

 

[S.M.F.G]

Yawns... makes fresh berry youghert smoothie, comes to bluelight social. sais hi to everyone, seem to be in the middle of something here...
I might just come back later maybe after ive done something of worth

 

[helium-4]

So I wrote a note that I put my heart into, put together a package with a couple of gifts that mean something to me, and hope to mail it out tomorrow. I hope it doesn't break on the way to it's final destination, and I hope she actually takes the time to open it up, rather than throw it away. I guess if she never calls me I wont find out whether or not she did, so I guess it might not even matter.

ah, I'm so glad to be on methadone today instead of buprenorphine. Methadone makes me feel so much better, and more relaxed than bupe. It also makes me sleep like a baby. I'm so glad my neuro went for methadone. I'm sure he was happier to hand it out rather than an oxy script which was probably the other choice, but in a lot of ways I'm happier for a methadone script. I like the 24 hour relief, so I don't have to dose when the RLS starts, the meds are already there preventing. The lower abuse also works in my favor as I know I'm an addict.

Was funny when I went to see my PCP. He saw that I was taking methadone and was surprised. He asked why I was taking it, and shocked that they script it for RLS. Just goes to show that a lot of docs don't know much about RLS, just that they should push dopamine agonists then refer to a neurologist.

 

[stardust.hero]

They prescribe you methadone for RLS as in restless leg syndrome? What?!

 

[helium-4]

opioids are only scripted for severe cases of RLS, but yes. Methadone is an amazing treatment option for RLS, and imo alot better than the first line treatment dopamine agonists (they have augmentation, real bad WDs, DAWs, wide range of side-effects, etc.), as well as benzos which don't actually help with RLS or PLMS (just helps allow one to fall asleep and stay asleep).


http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/mds.20359/abstract

Abstract

Most cases of restless legs syndrome (RLS) initially respond well to dopaminergic agonists. However, an unknown percentage of patients is intolerant of dopaminergic adverse events, initially or subsequently refractory, or develops limiting augmentation. We administered methadone 5 to 40 mg/day (final dose, 15.6 ± 7.7) to 29 RLS patients who failed dopaminergics. They were currently taking or had previously tried 5.9 ± 1.7 (range, 3–9) different medications for RLS and 2.9 ± 0.8 (range, 2–4) different dopaminergics. Of the 27 patients who met inclusion criteria, 17 have remained on methadone for 23 ± 12 months (range, 4–44 months) at a dose of 15.5 ± 7.7 mg/day; 2 dialysis RLS patients died while on methadone, and 8 stopped the treatment (5 for adverse events, 2 for lack of efficacy, and 1 for logistical reasons). All patients who remain on methadone report at least a 75% reduction in symptoms, and none have developed augmentation. Methadone should be considered in RLS patients with an unsatisfactory dopaminergic response. © 2004 Movement Disorder Society

http://www.sleep-journal.com/article/S1389-9457(10)00371-0/abstract

The DA agonists appear to have a limited period of clinical utility for many patients. Severe augmentation, while not common in any 1year, can develop even after years on the medication. Methadone, in contrast, shows neither augmentation nor major problems with continued efficacy after the first year of treatment.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2671772/

Opioids
In the 17th century, opiates were actually used in the treatment of conditions that closely resembled RLS. In double-blind, placebo-controlled trials, several workers have reported the beneficial effects of drugs such as oxycodone and propoxyphone in providing symptomatic relief of both RLS and PLMS (Allen et al 1992; Walters et al 1993; Henning et al 1999). Stronger opioids such as methadone, levorphanol, and sustained-release morphine should be reserved for the treatment of severe cases and for those not responding to dopaminergic treatment or in RLS associated with pain (asthenia crurum dolorosa) (Tse et al 2004). More recently, Ondo (2005) has reported the sustained efficacy and good tolerability of methadone (5–40 mg/day) in RLS patients who failed dopaminergic treatment, with a 75% reduction in symptoms and no augmentation between 4 and 44 months.

 

[stardust.hero]

I mean opioids could basically mask any ailment. How are you not fearing for your life to come off of that one day? I mean your sources are great but I just can't believe someone would prescribe that to a person who they presume doesn't have addiction problems already.

Unless all this I read about methadone and comedowns being worse than all the other opiates is just hogwash.

Also how are there not other treatments that are less harmful and have less addiction potential? ..or is it just the fact that the other medications don't feel good?

 

[DexterMeth]

Because methadone lasts so long, is very cheap and doesn't make one psychotic.

The first line of defense should be a heavy CBD indica strain of cannabis. Hardly psychoactive, but very relaxing.

 

[helium-4]

Dopamine agonists are just as addictive and have horrible WDs. Benzos also have horrible WDs, and a good portion of people on this site say benzo addiction is far worse than opioid addiction. Some of the other treatments like gabapentin don't actually work for me. It works well for others, but thats why specialists work through medications starting with ones with lower potential for addiction and abuse

Also, methadone has a very low abuse potential when taken daily. The doses used are also on the low end of the spectrum, lower than for chronic pain patients. The avg dose for methadone for RLS is 15mgs which is quite low and wont produce a bad dependence under medical supervision. The efficiency of opioids for RLS also don't have a significant decrease over periods of even years. So once a dosage is found and stabilized, there isn't a need to adjust to say tolerance like what is seen with chronic pain patients. Though, bad RLS can be very painful, neurologically not your general somatic type of pain, and can require medications like methadone or oxycodone. Majority of cases don't use opioids, but opioids have the best efficiency when it comes to treating RLS. They don't just mask the symptoms, they actually prevent them. Benzos on the other hand do not prevent the symptoms, they make them easier to deal with.


The last source I posted, http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2671772/ goes through all standard treatment options for RLS, and gives a better understanding as to what RLS really is. Many people don't quite understand how serious RLS can be. It can be a life long problem that prevents individuals from living functional lives.

Another good source going over, "Restless leg syndrome: is it a real problem?" http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1936366/

Another source for all treatment options looked at, http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?pid=S1516-44462006000400012&script=sci_arttext


Anyway, I'm not really that concerned with coming of methadone eventually. My dose is low, nothing like what is seen with MMT programs, and with proper medical supervision tapering off should come with relative ease. I plan on doing this probably in two years/when my life starts to really get in a comfortable spot, to see if I can work on overcoming this with minimal use of drugs. Currently I'm extremely depressed and anxious, with my life completely torn apart. These problems can intensify RLS significantly making all the non-drug interventions completely useless. Since I'm struggling, it is imperative for me to get my RLS under control as getting poor sleep has only made my depression worse as well as my ADHD impossible to overcome. Now that I've found medication to help my RLS my ADHD has been easier to work through. It is actually seen that individuals with ADHD are more likely to have RLS and PLMS than the average individual. Also individuals with gastrointestinal problems have a higher chance of having RLS as well, and guess what? I have gastrointestinal issues. Some people don't quite understand how much of a problem RLS really can be. Every afternoon I have trouble sitting down, causing me to move from room to room, stopping activities I'm trying to focus on. I have trouble trying to go to sleep because the instant my legs become still they start to become so uncomfortable I have to constantly move them to attempt to relieve the pain/annoying sensations. My legs also wake me up multiple times during the night, causing my sleep patterns to be thrown off, making my nights sleep not very restful. With methadone I wake up feeling rested. I wake up able to take on the day and my concentration is noticeably increased.

Unlike a lot of individuals with RLS, my RLS happens everyday starting late afternoon, and even right when I wake up in the morning. It is something that is a daily problem.

 

[stardust.hero]

It's cheap for the user to purchase?

Also Splat, thanks for the info. I don't know much about it but I guess what I have heard about it sounded pretty serious. I hope they are maintaining it well for you. Are you saying the doses you are receiving are lower than the doses on a maintenance opiate plan would be?

All I know is I ended up trapped in a rehab facility on top of a mountain and they thought for the entire 30 days that I was a Methadone addict and I purchased it on the internet. -.- That was annoying.

 

[helium-4]

Because methadone lasts so long, is very cheap and doesn't make one psychotic.

The first line of defense should be a heavy CBD indica strain of cannabis. Hardly psychoactive, but very relaxing.

The duration is fantastic, as well as the price. I spend less than 10 dollars for a month of medication (600mg of methadone). It is also legal, so I avoid the problems associated with cannabis. (though, once I move in to my own house I will start growing once again and use cannabis potentially for this problem)

Methadone unlike other opiates becomes less euphoric and desirable in a recreational sense once sustained over a period of weeks. So, after a month of continual use, there is a say a little mood lift, but I say that is only beneficial as it can play a roll as an anti-depressant.


I know people find it ridiculous that opioids can be prescribed for conditions like RLS, but a lot of this is due to ignorance of the conditions. Also jealousy plays a role too if one can't get pain killers for their problems. However, my use of methadone isn't ridiculous in anyway.

http://www.rlshelp.org/ this site is a great one to see letters from RLS patients, telling their stories. It's really informative.

 

[DexterMeth]

Ya. If you're dosing daily, taking a beta blocker (to lower blood pressure) and ingesting or smoking a CBD strain on the off days, to keep the effects of the 'done somewhat in effect, works quite well. Exercise helps heaps too, especially since MMT/PM can make one really lazy, but more so slow down metabolism by A LOT.

 

[helium-4]

It's cheap for the user to purchase?

Also Splat, thanks for the info. I don't know much about it but I guess what I have heard about it sounded pretty serious. I hope they are maintaining it well for you. Are you saying the doses you are receiving are lower than the doses on a maintenance opiate plan would be?

All I know is I ended up trapped in a rehab facility on top of a mountain and they thought for the entire 30 days that I was a Methadone addict and I purchased it on the internet. -.- That was annoying.

No problem. I noticed even from people I am friends with, they don't quite understand what RLS and/or PLMS is, or just associate it with opioid WDs. Even physicians aren't very knowledgeable about the conditions, especially if they aren't say a specialist in neurology or sleep conditions. It hasn't been till recently that physicians are taking the condition much more seriously. Even patients/individuals who have/may have RLS take an extend period of time to seek help, or don't seek help for their problem. The condition can be seen as fake, resulting from other health conditions (physical or mental, which can be true), and even just ignored. Now some people can "get away" with not treating the condition, and just deal with the consequences (daily fatigue, poor concentration, depression, anxiety, etc.). These consequences can be more severe for some than others. Some individuals will have drastic negative problems in their life; loss of job, relationship issues, increase risk for physical health problems, etc. Others will just feel tired in the morning and have to work harder to get their day going. For individuals with less server RLS, or with a known cause for the RLS, can treat the problem with exercise (a period of time a few hours before bed), a warm bath at night, elimination of caffeine, alcohol and nicotine, iron supplements (iron deficiency can cause RLS), giving birth to a baby (RLS is seen in higher frequencies with women when they are preggos), having consistent sleep schedule, getting rid of stress/depression/anxiety etc. Others need drug therapy.

Dopamine agonists, specifically commonly in the recent years, prampiexole or ropinirole, will be the first line treatment. These dopamine agonists are D2, D3, D4 agonists with generally small Ki values for D2 and D3 receptors. These drugs are also used for Parkinsons treatment, helping with of similar physical movements resulting from an imbalance/abnormal concentrations of these receptors in specific areas of the brain (these receptors are inhibitory receptors unlike your D1 and D5s that excitatory [also are in higher concentrations in different parts of the brain], which some stimulants active in laymans terms). One annoying part about these agonists are they take a few weeks for them to start functioning properly, as they attach to the presynaptic receptors (auto-receptors - control the neurons which are sending the signals to the next neuron, aka altering functioning) which are of higher sensitivity from the get go. Once they sensitize the auto-receptors their action at post-synaptic receptors become predominate. Their specific mode of actions are seen to have a large number of potential side-effects as well. I personally couldn't stand them, even though I found them to be one of the best drugs for social anxiety I've ever tried, and have the potential be very good anti-depressants (especially for those with treatment resistant depression). They made my impulsiveness go nuts (waking up in the middle of the night to eat), steal drugs from relatives (I felt super bad about this), spend money I should have, made me extremely tired during the day, and the ropinirole actually made all my joints/muscles ache. Also, there is a thing called augmentation, which is the RLS symptoms occurring earlier and earlier everyday, and sometimes at greater intensity. So, in long term therapy one might need to take a holiday from them, or discontinue them indefinitely. When discontinuing dopamine agonists, the WDs have been compared to opioid WDs. The RLS symptoms become also intensified where opioids are commonly used to ween off the dopamine agonists to make the transition back to no medication easier. DAWs (dopamine agonist withdrawal), can be long lasting similar to PAWs as well.

Benzos, especially clonazepam are prescribed sometimes as first line, or after/with dopamine agonists. Clonazepam is the only FDA approved benzo for treatment for RLS. Temazepam is also used as well. The problem with benzos are they don't actually help/eliminate any of the symptoms of rls or plms (they are more commonly used to treat PLMS [periodic limb movement syndrom]), and can have a negative effect on ones sleep cycle. Not to mention the well known problems with dependence, which can result in lasting gaba a modulation once discontinued. Docs script them cuz they don't know better alot of the time, and they work well at knocking people out/keeping them asleep. So essentially they can be used to try and cover up the problems of RLS/PLMS.

Anti-convulsants like gabapentin (neurontin) or pregabalin (lyrica, btw expensive as shit), as also used for second line treatment or with dopamine agonists. They can be beneficial for a lot of individuals with RLS, ones with no neurological pain, and with neurological pain (they are also scripted for say fibromyalgia, or other neuropathic pain problems). They can be used incombination with dopamine agonists, or with benzos if they don't help one fall asleep. I personally didn't find gabapentin to do much at all for my RLS. It help a tiny, tiny bit, but I'd still be uncomfortable for a good portion of the day. It is fantastic for helping stabilize my mood and social anxiety, but I couldn't use it for RLS or PLMS.

There are some experiences using alpha-2 adrenergic agonists like clonidine for RLS, but there are mixed results, and can be tired at the discresion of the prescribing physician. People do find it helps with opioid induced RLS.

Opioids, both low potency and high potency are used as second line or third line (high potency) medications, also with or with out other medications discussed above. Opioids are used frequently for refractory cases (like daily cases) and painful RLS cases. Low potency opioids like tramadol or dextropropoxyphene (this used to be very successful for RLS before it was taken off the market) are commonly the first opioids tried. They can work very well, and when I had a low tolerance to opioids tramadol actually worked well, but currently (for the past 6-9 months) it just helps eliminate the painful sensations of RLS, but doesn't help my legs get comfortable. It also was too stimulating for me, especially the higher the dose (I was taking 200mg a day). Other low potency opioids like codeine or hydrocodone (more commonly hydrocodone) are also used. Hydrocodone more so, but the problem is the shorter duration and the only formulas available atm besides specialty compounded formulas have APAP which has no benefit. People sometimes have to take multiple doses through out the day or even wake up in the middle of the night when the hydrocodone stops working. Higher potency opioids like oxycodone, levorphenol, and methadone (particularly oxycodone and methadone) are used when the lower potency don't work or the doses become to high (no more than 400mg of tramadol a day, taking to much APAP with hydrocodone is a no no). These are always saved for for the most severe cases of RLS that are daily problems. On http://www.rlshelp.org/ you an read stories of individuals who have such severe cases you'll understand why they need them. Depending on when the symptoms start or what the physician prefers scripting, oxy or methadone will be used. Methadone has been seen from my experience to be used in more studies, and have more advantages over oxycodone, but both work well. Methadone also has NMDA-antagonism and light SNRI effects (s-isomer is the potent nmda-antagonist, as well as a light SNRI) which has been seen to work well for pain involving neuropathic issues, as well as other forms of non-somatic pain. It also builds up a steady state concentration (though some studies show some fluctuation of concentration through out the day), and it's half-life increases the longer one takes it (going from 22-24 hours up to say 60 hours). The abuse potential of methadone is lower than that of oxycodone or other high potency opioids, has reported lower levels of euphoria, and is cheap as fuck. Especially if one needs the extended release oxycodone or other high potency opioid ERs, methadone is like a 1/10 of the price per month.

Not matter what opioid essentially is chosen, the efficiency of the opioids remain close to the same as when the therapy was initiated, even over a period of months and years. There are studies that show 75% of symptom reduction using opioids for 18+ months, with no increase of dosage. There also isn't the augmentation seen with the dopamine agonists, which can be a huge problem for individuals with severe RLS. The side-effects of opioids are pretty minimal, with the biggest being addiction. Constipation, and somnolence (which is seen with basically all other meds) are really the only other common side-effects that could be serious or very problem some. Opioids also don't have the negative impact on the natural sleep cycle like what is seen with benzos, and can reduce the number of limb movements per hour, which benzos also can't do (assocatiated with PLMS). So potentially opioids can help with both RLS and PLMS, not by masking the conditions but by preventing the symptoms from happening.

I need to read up more on what happens pharmacologically when opioids are used, but I'm quickly just spouting out the information I've learned over the past couple months from the top of my head.

Oh yeah, there are also some evidence that NMDA-antagonists like ketamine can be beneficial for RLS interestingly enough. Weed of course as dexter has mentioned can help, though there aren't really studies on it's use for the RLS sadly.

Also, anti-depressants (SSRIs, SNRIs, MAOIs) all can make RLS worse. Ironically as individuals with RLS and or PLMS have a high chance of also suffering from depression. Wellbutrin is the one anti-depressant I've seen that is recommend for individuals with RLS that also need an anti-depressant.

I personally find that methadone works well as an anti-depressant. Maybe it is it's effect on the kappa receptors (I find buprenorphine to be a pretty good anti-depressant and it has a decent effect on the kappa receptors), it's effect on the mu receptors, or even it's effect nmda-antagonism depressant effect through TOR like ketamine (I believe its activated through the nmda-antagonism, ?). I find tramadol to have decent anti-depressant effects as well, though it also has a strong SNRI effect with the nmda-antagonism. Methadone has some SNRI effect, seen with a higher activity from s-isomer (same with the nmda-antagonism), so that could also play a role. Maybe even just getting some solid sleep, and a healthier sleep cycle is where most of the anti-depressant effect comes from.

/rant

 

[DexterMeth]

^And MXE. It's like Ketamine XR when used correctly for this. Also, there is a pure hydrocodone pill that's recently hit the market.

 

[S.M.F.G]

Id just like a dog or a cat... lol
got two puppy playdates lined up this week, will be so cool to walk and run around with some goddamn dogs this week.
Sorry to drag off topic of methadone, ive only eva used that shit recreationaly, same as any other op8.. knocks the living shit outta ya

Oh yeah and i only get tramadol for RLS, so yer one with a done script for that would consider oneself lucky id think.

 

[helium-4]

^And MXE. It's like Ketamine XR when used correctly for this. Also, there is a pure hydrocodone pill that's recently hit the market.

MXE was decent for RLS, my problem with it was the high levels of somnolence the day after use. It's pretty stimulating while intoxicated, but afterwards, even after a good night sleep I felt worn out.

On the topic of anti-depressant effects, I personally found MXE to be a poor substitute for ketamine in that respect. I may be one of the few who find MXE to be rather disappointing when it comes to being a dissociative, recreationally and a medical therapeutic drug. I was disappointed with my disappointment haha. I wish I could try more arylcyclohexylamines as their potential, even through downstream cascades with other glutamate systems, or dopamergic systems is very fascinating. Even ketamine leaves me disappointed in some respects. Not so much in it's therapeutic effects, as it's ant-depressant effects are outstanding, especially with the fact that it's short duration allows for minimal side-effects (LTD lasting a short period - during and a short period after use, short period of negative effects on learning, association, etc.). It also has stop me from drinking alcohol for months after use, stops me from desiring cigs, eliminates social anxiety for days after use, helps with my ADHD post use for days, stabilizes my mood, etc. MXE really was a half assed version of ketamine in those respects, and did nothing to slow/prevent amphetamine tolerance as well as opioid tolerance.

Id just like a dog or a cat... lol
got two puppy playdates lined up this week, will be so cool to walk and run around with some goddamn dogs this week.
Sorry to drag off topic of methadone, ive only eva used that shit recreationaly, same as any other op8.. knocks the living shit outta ya

Oh yeah and i only get tramadol for RLS, so yer one with a done script for that would consider oneself lucky id think.

I mean, it took me a while to get to the point where I got my hands on methadone, and it was also just luck with finding a neurologist who was willing to listen to my suggestions. He knew enough to suggest drugs, or follow a protocol, but valued the suggestions of his patients for their treatments. He said something like this to me, "I have to know 500+ diseases and disorders, so I don't have time to spend days and days researching one problem. You as a patient can spend 24 hours researching you problem and become in some ways better informed than the practitioner, so your suggestions are just as valuable as mine. Whatever we can find that works, is the only thing we are concerned about. Even if it isn't the standard medication for a given issue, if it works, it works."

I went through all the classifications of drugs I mention on the last page, with little results. Only thing that helped in some way was clonazepam as it allows me to fall asleep and stay asleep, but I'd like to get off it for the obvious reasons. I guess tramadol also did to an extent, but it was so minimal and not worth being on an ineffective medication. It was also a little to stimulating for me for me to be comfortable taking everyday, not to mention I was scared of eventually WDing from it's SNRI effects. I went from tramadol to methadone with ease, and honestly that did shock me. I thought I was going to have to have a long discussion with him, but he agreed instantly. He does prescribe pain medication daily, being a chronic pain management doctor for neurological disorders, so he understands the the risks and benefits from using them. He was happy about the methadone because of it's minimal abuse potential.

I admit I love methadone, and I abused it before I was scripted it. However, once you take it everyday, you lose the ability to abuse it. Same can be said with suboxone. You might say, well its a full agonist not a partial like suboxone, but once it's essentially a steady concentration in your system, you really only get a slight mood boost after dosing. The sedation goes away for the most part, the histamine release goes away (I used to love the itch of methadone), the ability to nod decreases (you'd need to double, or triple your dose, and fuck running out of methadone and WDing till the next script), etc. So the common opinion among MMT patients is that methadone isn't very recreational if at all. It even raises the tolerance for all other opioids that trying to get high becomes extremely difficult (I'm not at 60-70 mgs where it becomes impossible to get high on top of it, but my tolerance is still high)

I say if one is trying to take methadone recreationally, never dose above 50-60mgs and never dose more than 2-3 days in a row, or it turns basically into a low abuse medication.

One of the reasons why I chose to go for methadone over oxycodone when I asked to switch from tramadol to something else was because I know I love opioids. I know I abuse them, and I'm pretty depressed. Methadone kinda puts a stop to the abuse. Sure you can keep increasing your dose by almost double everyday and chase the high, but in less than a week your out of meds, and are about to be in hell. I have a friend who is worried I was trying to get methadone just because I'm a drug seeker/think it is one of the best opioids, and in some ways she was right. When used sparingly with a low tolerance I thought it was the bees knees, and it is alluring especially since it is used to treat my condition. In all reality if I wanted to abuse my medication/get a script purely for fun, I would have gone for oxycodone, oxymorphone, or morphine. I went in knowing that any high from the methadone will be gone after a week of daily use, and let me tell you, I never got high from the scripted dose in the first place. To get high I'd have to take over twice the therapeutic dose. From the start I prevented myself from getting high, even if I get a mental boost from having a methadone script.

Also, the only opioids I can get where I'm living right now is methadone and buprenorphine. If I take methadone everyday, there isn't a point to buying methadone (It would stop it from working therapeutically, and build such a high tolerance for all opioids that it would be so stupid. It's actually pretty ingenious). With the methadone tolerance, I cant even get high on buprenorphine. Taking anymore than 4 mgs hits the ceiling for "enjoyable" effects. So, I essentially prevented my self from getting high on the drugs I have around me on the black market, and chose a drug that has an anti-abuse component to it. So yeah, she was right in some way, but only in that I get a kick mentally for having a methadone script. I am an addict, but I teased myself just enough to be excited for the visits to the pharmacy, not allow myself to get excited because I'm gonna catch a nod.

If anything, going on methadone is dumb if I want to continue to be an opioid addict. It already takes close to a hundred dollars for me to get high on oxy, it'd be more now. However, it doesn't mean I can't fuck this up and run out of methadone by being impulsive. I was last time because the whole losing a friend made me just become self destructive (take huge doses and cut myself). It was stupid because I didn't even get to where I wanted to be, and I could have killed myself If I do that again, I'll WD for at least a week or two, or actually find myself dead so no thanks.

 

[DexterMeth]

You sure you got real MXE? There was A LOT of batched synths, tiletamine, etc. floating around. MXE gives me nearly a month long afterglow. K more like a few days. K is probably better for what you speak of because of how much morr of a psychedelic fry MXE is. Tiletamine is souless, black and void. MXE is beyond colorful and pure liquid.

As far as opioid tolerance, MXE hits the mu-receptors somewhat, so it's not going to help, but it will certainly potentiate. Old BLr Fast&Bublous is the creator of this stuff. He made it to rid himself if phantom limb pain that nothing could help, but K came close. I personally do not find MXE to be stimulating, but I know a lot of people do.

As for the effects on amp tolerance, NE/DA, etc? I have no clue. Would be interesting to find out.

If you would like to discuss this more, PM me, but don't blow up my inbox. I think we're getting off-track here.

 

[helium-4]

You sure you got real MXE? There was A LOT of batched synths, tiletamine, etc. floating around. MXE gives me nearly a month long afterglow. K more like a few days. K is probably better for what you speak of because of how much morr of a psychedelic fry MXE is. Tiletamine is souless, black and void. MXE is beyond colorful and pure liquid.

As far as opioid tolerance, MXE hits the mu-receptors somewhat, so it's not going to help, but it will certainly potentiate. Old BLr Fast&Bublous is the creator of this stuff. He made it to rid himself if phantom limb pain that nothing could help, but K came close. I personally do not find MXE to be stimulating, but I know a lot of people do.

As for the effects on amp tolerance, NE/DA, etc? I have no clue. Would be interesting to find out.

If you would like to discuss this more, PM me, but don't blow up my inbox. I think we're getting off-track here.

Yeah, multiple people recommended and agreeded. It really just isn't my cup of tea. But you are right, for recreational discussion, PM is needed, not trying to break the rules (sorry if I already have tonight, I was trying to keep it medical not recreational).

 

[Dave]

I think we're getting off-track here

A bit, yeah.

No worries though.