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Complexing NBOMe compounds.

Transform

Transform

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NBOMes are not particularly soluble in water as bases, and as such, do not absorb well.

The way I see it, there are two solutions: convert to the salt or complex with HPBCD.

Complexing has become all the rage, with every newcomer wanting to complex their freebase NBOMes, their salts and everything in between.


I've been claiming there are no benefits to complexing when compared to neutralising to a salt. Is there any evidence suggesting otherwise?

Can I just continue telling people to dissolve their 25I in vinegar and we can put this complication to rest for anyone but the drug nerds?



Original walkthrough here, I think this is what started the whole thing.
 
It just sounds like it's a way to make buccal viable. If you have no reason to prefer buccal to intranasal, then why would you prefer complexing?
 
Well, yes in theory, but do you think you can measure out, say, 500 ug of 25C salt accurately, and then transfer it to your gums without the loss of even a few tenths of a milligram?
 
No, just as you can't take 500ug of complexed powder and measure it accurately without professional equipment.

My point is, everything you can do with a complex, you can do with a salt.


Perhaps it could be used to give a powder which is very consistently mixed with effectively a higher dose requirement, but is that it?
 
I think so. Upon a second look though, an "intense trip" off of 500 ug of 25I is actually really impressive, if I'm correct in my memory of 25I dosages. I wouldn't even call 500 ug of 25C intranasally intense, so it must be pretty efficient or the poster is rather sensitive.
 
That's the only one I've seen with such details though (I've not seen a whole lot), and he isn't the only one to have tried complexing.
 
Dmso

Is there any data at all regarding DMSO (dimethyl sulfoxide) and NBOMe compounds? I have searched for it pretty extensively and have so far found nothing. I think it's an interesting idea. Is there any reason to think that it wouldn't increase absorption through the skin and other membranes?

I think the biggest argument against it would be that it would be hard to handle without accidental ingestion and that DMSO smells like garlic.

-simstim
 
Well the thing about DMSO is that no matter where it touches you you'll taste garlic xD
I remember someone saying that DMSO did not allow LSD to be well absorbed through the skin, by the account of some famous psychonaut.
 
Transform said:
My point is, everything you can do with a complex, you can do with a salt.
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might be true.

but if you complex it you can do it faster. *shrugs*

25I doesn't absorb well, and it gets pretty much destroyed when it hits your stomach. you gotta get it into your bloodstream before it hits your stomach enzymes. HPBCD complexing will aid absorption.
 
More than a salt will? Can you provide any references for this?

DMSO was reported to not be effective for transdermal LSD. I don't know what criteria have to be met for it to be effective, but my first guess is molecule size and 25-I is a similar size to LSD.
 
dmso and hpbcd work in two completely different ways, you shouldn't attempt to draw comparisons between the two

also 25I is not LSD :)

btw in case anyone doesn't realize.... HPBCD is sorta just fancy sugar :)
 
thenightwatch said:
dmso and hpbcd work in two completely different ways, you shouldn't attempt to draw comparisons between the two
Click to expand...

I don't think a comparison was being made. I brought it up as an alternative suggestion to HPBCD.

I would, however, like to see a subjective comparison of the two as a means of ingestion from someone who has tried both.

DMSO doesn't have to be taken transdermally since it also facilitates drugs across other membranes. It could be dropped under the tongue, sprayed inside the nose, or in the eye (though I imagine it would burn quite a bit nasally or optically since it is a skin irritant, would be like squirting garlic or onion juice in the eye if not much worse).

It could very well facilitate the absorption of NBOMe compounds through the sublingual mucosa better than HPBCD.

Cheers,
-SimStim
 
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simstimstar said:
I don't think a comparison was being made. I brought it up as an alternative suggestion to HPBCD.

I would, however, like to see a subjective comparison of the two as a means of ingestion from someone who has tried both.
Click to expand...

That's what I'm looking for too. I've yet to see any evidence, yet alone compelling evidence that complexing is significantly stronger. I've not even seen anything but assumptions as to whether and how well 25I binds to it.
 
Transform said:
That's what I'm looking for too. I've yet to see any evidence, yet alone compelling evidence that complexing is significantly stronger. I've not even seen anything but assumptions as to whether and how well 25I binds to it.
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before i had taken either one, i hadn't seen any evidence that LSD is more potent than Mescaline

well, other than subjective experience reports that i've read from others.

what proof are you seeking? we are talking about intensity of subjective experience, its hard to quantize that you realize :)
 
Some calculation of pore size vs the size of 25I, some evidence that HBPCD is well absorbed through oral membranes. Anything at all, other than that one report where someone tried complexing only reported it to be strong would be good.
 
I plan on purchasing a sample for this purpose. I will have a gram of HPBCD and 100mg of 25I-NBOMe. Gonna split it up, prepare the acetate salt with one and complex the other.

I don't really see the benefit but for the sake of science, maybe I should split it in thirds, and try a complexed salt? Obviously the salt isn't staying complexed in solution though.
 
PsychedelicDoctor said:
I plan on purchasing a sample for this purpose. I will have a gram of HPBCD and 100mg of 25I-NBOMe. Gonna split it up, prepare the acetate salt with one and complex the other.

I don't really see the benefit but for the sake of science, maybe I should split it in thirds, and try a complexed salt? Obviously the salt isn't staying complexed in solution though.
Click to expand...

You should save a bit and try it with DMSO, too. For the sake of science ;)

Cheers,
-SimStim
 
Transform said:
That's what I'm looking for too. I've yet to see any evidence, yet alone compelling evidence that complexing is significantly stronger. I've not even seen anything but assumptions as to whether and how well 25I binds to it.
Click to expand...

Tregar in the 25I-NBOMe threads has reported that the speed and efficiency of NBOMe buccal/sublingual absorption was increased about twice over. He states 95% buccal absorption in 20 minutes or less with 25I-NBOMe. This was with the HCl, mind you.

EDIT: Maybe I should learn to read. I just saw that you referenced the walkthrough tregar posted. He stated himself through his own experiences that he achieved the above figures, though - I guess you're looking for more concrete analytical proof? Do you not trust Tregar's word? I'm not harping on you, I'm newer here and just want to make sure I understand where you're coming from. Thanks.

EDIT 2: One thing I wonder about is 25C-Nbome. The molecule seems much larger than that of 25I-Nbome, which makes me wonder - can it recede into the cavity of the cyclodextrin ring? Will it fit? I would imagine this would work flawlessly for 25I due to it's tiny size, but 100mg of 25I looks like 25mg of 25C.
 
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Molecular size and powder density needn't be related. Iodine is much larger than chlorine, so we should be considering if 25I is too large.

This assumes that any of them fit. I've not seen so much as a size calculation indicating it might form a complex.
 
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