Live w/ Eternal PAWS or Go Back to Opiates?

[Lady Codone]

Just felt the need to vent today, so forgive me if this is TMI. So...here's my story in a nutshell:

I recently quit poppy tea after a 3.5 year daily habit. Cold turkey. Withdrawals weren't really all that bad--no puking, diarrhea or cravings. Just severe fatigue and mild flu-like symptoms. Great.

Fast forward 2 months--Ever since quitting, I've felt very emotionally unstable. Some days are fine while others are riddled with ups and downs--anxiety/aggression some days and soul-crushing depression on others. It feels very much like how I felt as a teenager before discovering opiates. Still no cravings at all, just the feeling that I was a healthier, more stable person while on opiates. I didn't even make the connection between my current mental state and PAWS until yesterday. (I suffer from Aspergers Syndrome and all the anxiety/depression that go with it).

My habit was never out of control, I just grew tired of paying for pods (which are once again ridiculously priced due to shortage). I've tried exercise, dietary changes, Prozac (which I've been on/off many times), self-help books and everything else I can think of, but I can't escape the emotional rollercoaster that has become my post-opiate life (and was always my natural state pre-opiates).

My only options at this point are to keep living this way or go back on opiates and see if that fixes it. (My friends are actually in favor of me going back to opiates, as I was a much more stable/functional human being during my time on them).

Any suggestions or personal stories of PAWS recovery? How long did it take to go away (if ever)?

 

[herbavore]

My only options at this point are to keep living this way or go back on opiates and see if that fixes it. (My friends are actually in favor of me going back to opiates, as I was a much more stable/functional human being during my time on them).

I cannot stress enough that those are NOT your only two options! (And friends that tell a person in recovery that she was a better person on the drug she just got off suggests a need for new friends, or at the very least some serious education for the old ones.) The ups and downs you are describing may be PAWS or they may be symptoms you had that led you to your use of opiates in the first place. There are so many options for dealing with even the most brutal anxiety and depression. Making internal changes is never easy. First there is the fear that this is unchangeable that has to be conquered. Then comes identifying the sources of the feelings and figuring out multiple ways to learn to transform them. When you are used to having a drug work immediately to change how you are feeling there is going to be a certain amount of patience necessary to change your reactions to feelings over time. But this is so rewarding in the end. You do not have to buy a drug and you are not dependent on anything outside of yourself to control the extremes you are feeling.

CBT therapy could be very helpful. Do you have access to therapy? If so, finding a therapist trained in this could be very helpful. Have you ever tried mindfulness training at all? For me this has been a life-changer. Through mindfulness practice I have learned that fluctuating emotions do not have to feel like an exhausting roller-coaster ride where you are using all your strength just to hold on.

I hope that you can see the importance of getting off the opiates. You say your daily use was not out of control. Read through many of the threads here to see what lies ahead if you continue. If your WDs were not that difficult consider yourself lucky and don't turn back. Keep looking and trying all options. Nothing in and of itself is going to be a magic bullet but what you have already tried in combination with new approaches could begin to fundamentally change things on a deeper level than masking with drugs ever can.

 

[n3ophy7e]

Lady Codone, I think you know deep down inside that you shouldn't go back on to poppy tea, regardless of what your friends tell you

I suspect the reason you're feeling a bit empty and unstable is because you were self-medicating with opiates, the poppy tea was fulfilling a very clear purpose for you. Your anxiety, depression, aggression and other emotional disturbances were obliterated whilst high on opiates. So now you've taken away your self-medication, and you've still got the same emotional issues as before, and you haven't replaced opiates with any other kind of treatment for your depression/anxiety etc. Does that help it make sense why you're feeling the way you feel without poppy tea? Personally I believe that therapy such as CBT or ACT can be extremely helpful in situations such as yours. Would you considered getting some regular therapy? Also, I know you mentioned that you've been on Prozac before. Are you currently on anything like that now? Do you think it's something that could help you? If so, maybe discuss some medication options with your doctor (there are of course many different anti-depressants/anti-anxiety meds to try, not just Prozac).

What do you think hun?

 

[Missykins]

I, too, would STRONGLY encourage you to seek the care of a mental health professional. This doesn't have to be limited to PAWS, which means that returning to opiates isn't your sole option, even if you've convinced yourself that it is PAWS.

 

[Lady Codone]

Thanks guys. Some very compassionate/insightful advice there.

I don't currently have the $ or access to psychological therapy/counseling of any kind, though I've tried it many times in the past w/ little effect. Honestly, I believe my mental/emotional problems are more biologically based than the result of negative/flawed thoughts or behaviors, though I acknowledge the role those things can play in perpetuating things like depression. I also totally agree that the opiates were a way to self-medicate (which I chose only because psychiatric medication had zero positive effects. Trust me, I've tried them all). Opiates were the only thing that ever truly worked, no matter how much I tried to deny or downplay the positive effects. Sure, hydrocodone and other synthetic opiates gave me a great deal of pleasure, but the poppy tea was not euphoric in the least...it only helped me "maintain". Kind of like methadone or suboxone. I never craved it and was able to stop w/ no fanfare on my own accord. Maybe it's denial, but my use didn't meet the criteria of true "addiction" (unable to stop despite negative effects, strong obsession/cravings, etc). I used it to normalize my emotions, not escape from them or numb myself. I held down a job, maintained an 8-year romantic relationship and kept a busy social life while on the poppies (only used small amounts once daily).

My main reasons for not wanting to go back are 1. the inconvenience of having to make/drink the nasty tea daily; 2. the cost of pods; 3. the idea of having to endure w/drawals in the future should I ever decide/have to stop again.

I am fully aware of the risks associated w/ opiate abuse and addiction, but in my mind I was not doing either and had no desire to. I was using opiates responsibly for a specific purpose, the same way I used Prozac (controlled dose 1x daily) to control deficiencies in my brain. And it worked (the opiates, not the Prozac lol). Only now am I seeing just how beneficial they truly were in controlling my symptoms.

I'll probably hold off for a while longer before making any final decisions. Thanks again for all the kind advice, I'll definitely take it into consideration. All advice is appreciated, as I'm sure you folks know more about the subject than most.

 

[Nodding]

I don't have any experience with the therapy side of this thread so I won't comment on that, but with regards to the opiate use:

What are you going to do when your tolerance rises? By the sounds of it you're still in (or were in) the 'honeymoon' stage of use. You don't need a huge amount to get you feeling right, the cost is a pain but it's not that much, and the WDs, as you said yourself, weren't even that bad when you came off them.
I can 100% guarantee you that all of that will change. Tolerance is the chippers downfall, it might take weeks, maybe months, but there will inevitably be a day when you take your normal dose, and it doesn't work like it should. The next day, same thing. Day 3, same again. Maybe just a bad batch of pods right? That's a thing, it happens, just take a few more of this batch each day then when the next box arrives go back to your usual dose.

To give you an idea of how this can scale up, the last time I tried pod tea I had a 40 (large, confirmed strong) pod tea and barely felt anything. Admittedly this is from years of pharmaceutical / Heroin abuse, but you get the point I'm trying to make.

I did the exact same thing as you, the only difference is I used OxyContin rather than pods, regardless of the drug trying to maintain yourself with opiates is really just setting yourself up for a massive fall further down the line.

Oh and also +1 for unbelievably selfish of your friends to tell you to go back on them, christ!

 

[itsok]

talk to ur psychiatrist. ask for ahdh meds like adderall or dextrostat - they give a surge of dopamine for that listless, dont give a shit depression at least for me.

also i find that occassional like every 2 weeks ketamine or mxe helps. there research articles about ketamine and depression.

 

[qwe]

i had a similar span for my poppy run. i also have aspergers, maybe our experiences will match, who knows. i didn't hop off at my normal dose, though. i too was using nearly entirely medically (but not all), until i had begun using them for escape around year 3-4 due to some life events, and then the dose went up up up (this was when pods were reasonably priced). i hopped to methadone (up to 95mg) to suboxone, and now i've been clear of daily use for 1.5-2years. with a couple 1-3 week relapses into daily use, and a couple 1-2 day "vacations".

after 2 years it still sucks bad. my PAWs includes a lot more than emotional ups and downs, but i had a higher dose. sorry for the bleak prognosis. a useful warning: any opiate use will bring back the acute WD at this stage.

i've been considering this question myself (opiates as medicine)... i'm sure you've had the following thought: in a world where opiates aren't taboo, people like you and me would probably be prescribed them if first/second line meds don't work. i've thought about it since the start of my daily use (in fact, i deliberately started that daily use for its effects on my insomnia, social anxiety, aspergers and social interaction, irritable bowel... the drug fits right into my brain (and gut) like a key, and somehow i was living life and doing tons of credits per semester for years on that wonder drug).

it's a tough question. tolerance kills off the benefits of daily use as medicine, though, and then you're stuck in a bind. and of course, there is the factor that it only could go smoothly over the long term if you basically have unlimited funds... so i would advise against it... then the clinching argument, for me, is that i want to be able to enjoy that headspace every once in a while, and if i build up any tolerance or especially dependence, i can't really take a little mu-agonist vacation.

Also, I know you mentioned that you've been on Prozac before. Are you currently on anything like that now? Do you think it's something that could help you? If so, maybe discuss some medication options with your doctor (there are of course many different anti-depressants/anti-anxiety meds to try, not just Prozac).

yeah, it definitely helps to get some pharmas. you have to be smart about it, though, and continue to be your own doctor in some way.. doctors will try to push all kinds of really strange new drugs, and most of them (including prozac) seem to really fuck with people with aspergers (especially those who have had a dependence) as far as i can tell.

this is what i was given:

before the opiates, i was already on klonopin. it basically does nothing after years of use, so it was unable to assist with my withdrawal. tolerance is a bitch.

ambien does help with sleep some. though be sure to get extended release if you get it, opiate withdrawal will have you always waking up.

seroquel is a strong med that will knock you out for a long time, if you really can't get through a night or something. my doc wouldn't give it to me unfortunately.

but i needed some sleep relief. besides marijuana, synthetic cannabinoids like potpourri/spice/JWH have been assisting my sleep and RLS/pain very successfully. however, i started to use the JWH in the same manner that got me into trouble with the opiates, using it to divert myself from anything outside my room for long periods of time.

i was given clonidine by my family doc. this will help calm muscles, and a little mental relaxation i suppose. downside: extreme fatigue.

then i was switched to a psych who preferred propranolol. i don't know if it really does anything, but i haven't experimented too much with it.

he also prescribed gabapentin, which i'm a little unsure about. like who gets elected, which drugs make it to doctors' ears is highly influenced by money, and it's not always rational which drugs get chosen. gabapentin seems to both calm me down and excite me. it makes my emotions more chaotic, but the funny thing is, that may have been a good thing: it let me sort those emotions and i'm currently dealing with them. then again, i'm basically bipolar right now, so be cautious with this one since you mentioned emotional ups/downs is your main issue with paws. (mine is RLS, plus i seemed to induce a temporary ADHD which tanked my grades)

for my focus issues, my doctor gladly gave me a free trial of straterra right out of his office. 10mg (low) of this and i felt like 40mg adderall (not good at all, stims make me feel terrible without euphoria... just my brain).

as i've said before on bluelight, i really think doctors are prescribing the wrong drugs, and the whole healthcare system is so fucked up.

as far as my therapy goes, i can't really tell if it has helped much. but if you aren't talking to anybody extremely openly, you either need to A) make a friend or B) go to the therapist. bluelight may not be enough. this is coming from a socially-anxious hermit, so take heed the brain's natural opiates are involved in socializing

its funny... i miss half the appointments and they make me pay a 90$ fine each time. the reason i go there is PAWs. and the PAWs is what rendered me incapable of a normal-enough sleep cycle to get there. sort of a catch 22 >.> i have to go, though, if i want certain financial support.

good luck with your recovery. mine has been quite a ride, and it continues... right now, i am in a cold sweat, cold/hot flashing, and can't focus on a single thing. i've been getting four hours of sleep. my most recent opiate use was one week ago, i used for 2 weeks.

another warning.. my leg kicking and hot cold sweats really kicked up after drinking only one drink of alcohol last night. i no longer have any tolerance for it, where before i had a seemingly invincible constitution, mood, calm, and all drugs imaginable you're brain has changed, be wary of all psychoactives.

-qwe

 

[Missykins]

talk to ur psychiatrist. ask for ahdh meds like adderall or dextrostat - they give a surge of dopamine for that listless, dont give a shit depression at least for me.

also i find that occassional like every 2 weeks ketamine or mxe helps. there research articles about ketamine and depression.

With all due respect, I don't think that the recommendation of an illicit dissociative anesthetic would be the best therapeutic approach. Ketamine is a dissociative anesthetic and is not labeled for the use of depression or any other clinic use other than general anesthesia. May I see the citations your are referring to?

Adderall sounds a little iffy.

 

[swmo]

PAWS drew me back countless times. Auricular acupuncture not only helped me kick opioids, it circumvented inevitable PAWS symptoms.

 

[batmanplaybaseball]

Wow that really sucks that your friends are actually encouraging you to go back to using pod tea. I don't know what to do about that, but I do know that you need to give your PAWS some more time to heal. Two months is a minimum when thinking about opiate recovery. Recovery doesn't happen instantly, it's a gradient that slowly comes over you. Also it is important to note that it is a lot more complicated than most people give it credit. At one month you're probably just happy to have the pain of acute withdrawal finished, but at two months you will probably be feeling even better but you won't notice it because you're expecting even more at that point.

I know that if you could go back to your initial withdrawal and then wake up one day later feeling like you do now, you would be like, 'wow, this is great, I feel incredible and it doesn't take a herculean effort for me to get out of bed'. Try and look at it that way. Stop expecting something incredible and instantaneous. The happiness from sobriety moves slowly, incredibly so when compared to the rush of drug use. But the happiness is an earned happiness, it takes time to build but it will be so much more difficult to take away. Drug use on the other hand will make you feel ok right away but it will leave you sick by the next morning.

Personally I am now five months clean from opiates and I can tell you that months 3-4 were so so much better, in terms of progress, than months 1-2. It moves at a different pace for everybody, but as long as you keep looking for small windows of natural happiness, and keep trying to hold onto them as long as you can, it will certainly get better. It really can only get better. The only thing that can make the progress of your recovery stop is to start using again.

 

[Missykins]

he also prescribed gabapentin, which i'm a little unsure about. like who gets elected, which drugs make it to doctors' ears is highly influenced by money, and it's not always rational which drugs get chosen. gabapentin seems to both calm me down and excite me. it makes my emotions more chaotic, but the funny thing is, that may have been a good thing: it let me sort those emotions and i'm currently dealing with them. then again, i'm basically bipolar right now, so be cautious with this one since you mentioned emotional ups/downs is your main issue with paws. (mine is RLS, plus i seemed to induce a temporary ADHD which tanked my grades)


as i've said before on bluelight, i really think doctors are prescribing the wrong drugs, and the whole healthcare system is so fucked up.

Well, gabapentin is the trade product of Neurontin, so there is no drug rep in your doctor's office pushing a $10 generic drug.

Trazadone is used a fair amount in PAWS, but I have no personal experience with PAWS.

 

[qwe]

With all due respect, I don't think that the recommendation of an illicit dissociative anesthetic would be the best therapeutic approach. Ketamine is a dissociative anesthetic and is not labeled for the use of depression or any other clinic use other than general anesthesia. May I see the citations your are referring to?

Adderall sounds a little iffy.

(articles)
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/198483.php (depression)
http://www.medpagetoday.com/Psychiatry/Depression/21499 (depression and bipolar)

(studies)
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20679587
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9707751

agreed about the stimulants though, horrible advice during withdrawal from a CNS depressant.

ketamine also inhibits the development of tolerance in opiates (leading me to suspect perhaps it could do some extra good), and with post withdrawal RLS and pain in the body, the dissociation might be a positive rather than negative effect.

 

[effie]

Be aware though that ketamine itself can be psychologically if not physically addictive, and can cause chemical cystitis (inflammation of the bladder) which can progress to permanent scarring and even require removal of the bladder in some cases - it is not without it's dangers.. and substituting one drug addiction for another generally tends to make matters worse..

Lady Codone, there are some excellent online resources for CBT which, although not as good as face to face therapy, are free and written by psychiatrists - if you google Living Life to the Full and MoodGym you will find a couple of websites. It might be worth looking into if you are interested? Also, getting some support from other people in a similar situation (apart from on here of course!) might help - have you looked into any groups (NA or otherwise) in your area?

Good luck

 

[enzymex]

Great feedback from other posters. Didn't have time to read thru the whole topic, but quick post about PAWS. After quitting Subutex about 5 years ago, it took at least a year to feel totally normal for me. Probably closer to two years. It will get better and better, but it takes time.

Was totally clean for 3 years. Of course, I'm doing opiates again occasionally, and still feel shit for 3-5 days after only 2-3 day binges. Not worth it really. Not going to do it often, but I just can't resist some poppy tea or oxycodone now and then.

 

[RedLeader]

I would rather have the worst day of PAWS ever than even a mild case of being dopesick.

 

[bagochina]

A lifetime of using and 2 years off opiates, it seems like I am starting to get in the clear. No more feeling sick out of the blue, i still get moments where I think I feel sick put quickly laugh it off because that feeling is still so ingrained with me. I have been having a lot of dreams about scoring heroin and using. They tend to go in cycles and are still occurring. No desire to use and it feels so motherfucking good to start to feel kinda normal.

Now my [lack of] emotions and my stubborn behavior well that is another story I guess...

Stay clean you will be soooo much happier in time. You should really look into acupuncture for help diminishing PAWS, very helpful!

 

[Alma]

Please do not. Just coming of 4 years of opiate use. I am a surviver of a war and a genocide. Been through things you don't even see in movies. When my life here and birth of my son brought memories of what I tried to block dr. Gave me opiates. It helped for a while but was only masking the true problem. I do not know about pods everyone is taking about, but if you can stay away from pills please do. There is something called Kratom it is natural helps with anxiety and depression. It is quite inexpensive and if you make tea with it ONLY when you truly need it and not each and every day you can avoid mental addiction as well. But try and find someone you can truly be yourself with, even if you think you cannot share that. Maybe a pen pal, start writing a diary, anything to get to the root cause of what is really causing your mental state. Once that is eliminated it will all clear up. This is med happy country, for heaven sakes they gave you meds for dry eyes, for longer eye lashes with side effects long enough to fill a book! Pharma runs this country. Almost everyone is addicted to something for one reason or another. It is not a long term solution. Just think I have two legs, two arms. I most likely will wake up in the morning a lot of others will not. No one will knock on your door and drag you out to be raped, kill your family while you watch. You live in the US, tough economy my ass. You still can buy a burger for a buck. Even if you are homeless you are better off then majority of the world population. Wake up and smell those damn roses!! Because the beauty is all around, just need to look for it. If your friends are downers, they are not your friends. People who need opiates are amputees, cancer patients. Don't wish that upon yourself by asking the universe for it. You the saying, if you tell yourself you need it, then universe will make you need it. Good luck with whatever you decide. Life is a roller coaster. Enjoy the ride, ups and downs. Remember, an addict will Always find a reason to justify the habit. I was there, I know.

 

[Missykins]

(articles)
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/198483.php (depression)
http://www.medpagetoday.com/Psychiatry/Depression/21499 (depression and bipolar)

(studies)
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20679587
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9707751

agreed about the stimulants though, horrible advice during withdrawal from a CNS depressant.

ketamine also inhibits the development of tolerance in opiates (leading me to suspect perhaps it could do some extra good), and with post withdrawal RLS and pain in the body, the dissociation might be a positive rather than negative effect.

Thank you for the information! I believe at this state it is still experimental and does not have FDA approval.

 

[Starshowers]

Good thread as it touches the topic of opiates for the application of hedonism. I consider narcotic (opioid) devotion all the time - right now I'm still on the fence though (try to keep a job, use just enough to not get physically addicted - have used about 2-7 times a week for 3-4 years. No withdrawals. Longest was 2 weeks once a day (16mg hydromorph insufflated). Pre-existing severe akithisia/anxiety/depression are my problems. I also use clonazepam (non script) to treat the anxiety. I have so much anxiety that i won't even ///don't know how to go to a doctor about this.