Jakeperson
Bluelighter
There may be other medicinal purposes that haven't been discovered yet.
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PD Moderators: Esperighanto | JackARoe |
Following Drug Bans (2C-X)
- Thread starter FractalStructure
- Start date
There may be other medicinal purposes that haven't been discovered yet.
isnt it also a lot easier for the government to control research being done in academia on sheduled substances? i mean, just because they allow it from time to time doesnt mean they always will, nor that they are obliged to at any point....
what im tryint to say is, jsut because they are sometimes lenient on some aspects, doenst make the ban less bad (or its effects better)
also, what is so bad about researching some substance that can give cool visuals, sex enhancement and general tripyness if the purpose is to make it safer (and not mroe available)?
i mean, think of viagra. it wasnt ever let loose on the market because it was beneficial or lifesaving. sure, some were depresesd because of ED, but certainly the target for it has widened very much and now i bet everyone over 30 has tried it at least. what is its benefit? sex...
and i dont even want to go down the path of alcohol... which has very limited use (and thats not yet fully proven) to help with health. and yet there it is, being researched and marketed at the same time.
not that i think everyone should have access to these chemicals. but driving them underground... just doesnt feel right.
and if one ever tryies to challenge popular hearsay "knowledge" of rat poison in drugs with quotes from scientists... surely is doomed to fail. it reminds me a bit about the whole debate between creationists and evolutionists:
"but we have bones of dinosaurs that werent in the bible, and look, suns like ours and planets alike far away, look these genes do this and we can make wheat grow in the desert!"
"not in the bible, didnt happen" ....
what im tryint to say is, jsut because they are sometimes lenient on some aspects, doenst make the ban less bad (or its effects better)
also, what is so bad about researching some substance that can give cool visuals, sex enhancement and general tripyness if the purpose is to make it safer (and not mroe available)?
i mean, think of viagra. it wasnt ever let loose on the market because it was beneficial or lifesaving. sure, some were depresesd because of ED, but certainly the target for it has widened very much and now i bet everyone over 30 has tried it at least. what is its benefit? sex...
and i dont even want to go down the path of alcohol... which has very limited use (and thats not yet fully proven) to help with health. and yet there it is, being researched and marketed at the same time.
not that i think everyone should have access to these chemicals. but driving them underground... just doesnt feel right.
and if one ever tryies to challenge popular hearsay "knowledge" of rat poison in drugs with quotes from scientists... surely is doomed to fail. it reminds me a bit about the whole debate between creationists and evolutionists:
"but we have bones of dinosaurs that werent in the bible, and look, suns like ours and planets alike far away, look these genes do this and we can make wheat grow in the desert!"
"not in the bible, didnt happen" ....
✰hyperobjects✰
Bluelighter
- Joined
- Jan 9, 2011
- Messages
- 171
@jakeperson
@biovail
RE: what good are the 2c-x's
Back in the 80's there was some research done with 2c-t-2 and 2c-t-7 as a more effective tool in psychotherapy than MDMA because the analytical edge they give coupled with empathogenic qualities surpassed MDMA in being able to not only come to terms with trauma, but allowed them to engage with traumatic events and integrate them better. Check it:
“Preliminary Results with New Psychoactive Agents 2C-T-2 AND 2C-T-7”. http://www.erowid.org/references/refs_view.php?ID=1198
Abstract
Preliminary test reports of two new phenethylamines, 2C-T-2 and 2C-T-7, which show promise as facilitators in psychotherapy, are compared to virgin use of MDMA (1). The purpose of the tests was to determine whether there were sufficient useful properties of the drugs to warrant further study, without contra-indicating side-effects. Drugs were administered in a friendly, supportive atmosphere with serene natural surroundings. Participants were requested to fill out a one-page questionnaire within a few days following the experience rating physical symptoms and various areas of functioning, and provide pertinent comments. Objectionable physical symptoms were minimal, and the majority experienced improvement in functioning in such areas as clarity of thought, flow of insights, communication with others, visual perception, energy level, feelings of well-being, and expanded dimensions of thought. Most found the experience valuable, and a large majority (41 to 4) would repeat the experience.
The objectives of the study were twofold. First, to determine whether the substances being explored show any potential usefulness for facilitating psychotherapy, for use as learning tools with regard to self, relationships, or the nature of reality, or as enhancers of functions like intuition, creativity, and clarity and range of thought. And second, whether they are free of readily noticeable, undesirable side effects. We hope through this preliminary study to stimulate further scientific research into these interesting compounds and to alert future researchers to possible contraindications.
~It actually makes me sad that MAPS does virtually no advocacy for the work of Shulgin and Nichols; although, it should be understood that MAPS is coming from a particular perspective, very in line with the medical marijuana movement, advocating the use of psychedelics as psychospiritual tools to treat psychiatric issues. Shulgin & Nichols' work is situated within the gigantic maw of pharmaceutical research and development. Perhaps the best way to present psychedelics as a legit field of study would be to look at them from a cognitive neuroscience perspective, looking at the neurophysiology of perception and differentiating this research from clinical applications in medicine and psychotherapy.
There's some research headed this way already, Shulgin wanted to study the metabolism of psychedelics in the body as to highlight particular receptor systems, so he radio-labeled 2c-I and DOI. Now that Shulgin's compounds are more difficult to work with because of politics, Nichols creates the NBOMe derrivatives and radio-labels 25i-NBOMe to investigate the human receptome. Most of the time though, these studies are done from a clinical psychiatric perspective, trying to develop new generations of anti-depressants, or ways to chemically characterize disorders like "schizophrenia" so as to chemically reverse engineer them.
The big difference though between Nichols and Shulgin is that Shulgin designed his compounds with the intent that they would be tested in humans. Sasha even went so far as to say it's unethical for a doctor to administer a medicine to a patient that he hadn't tried on himself and that it's impossible to assess a rat for changes in self-worth and this is why studying what psychedelics do subjectively in humans is imperative. Nichols, on the other hand, finds rat studies a valid way to assess receptor activity, and takes an ambivalent approach to the way his research is appropriated by the recreational community --except in times where he stops to make public service announcements in the media disavowing his research being hijacked by legal high makers. But it's important to note that Nichols isn't overtly developing compounds to be tested in humans and several compounds he developed are in fact NOT safe for human consumption and there's been a few fatalities with compounds Nichols developed .
What seems to be the problem more generally though is the way in which the next-generation stimulants (subsituted cathinones) and synthetic cannabinoids industries seem to be the biggest economies that are driving the R&D in the RC world and large amounts of media attention focusing on accidents/freakouts/disasters due in part to irresponsibility, and also in part because there's not enough resources on how to safely use/dose, and also the ethically questionable trend in legal high marketing that obscures the identity of the drugs you're getting) end up getting stuff like MDAI grouped in a ban with 2c-x's along side cannabinoids and cathinones in the US. How did that happen? I think we need to be better representatives of drug culture and start educating people more generally about what it is we're doing and how to party proper.
The recreational scene. The spirituality/therapy scenes. The neuro-perceptual scene. these should all be seen as legit areas of research and we need to start initiating on-the-ground as well as on-the-web conversations about this if we want this to change.
@biovail
RE: what good are the 2c-x's
Back in the 80's there was some research done with 2c-t-2 and 2c-t-7 as a more effective tool in psychotherapy than MDMA because the analytical edge they give coupled with empathogenic qualities surpassed MDMA in being able to not only come to terms with trauma, but allowed them to engage with traumatic events and integrate them better. Check it:
“Preliminary Results with New Psychoactive Agents 2C-T-2 AND 2C-T-7”. http://www.erowid.org/references/refs_view.php?ID=1198
Abstract
Preliminary test reports of two new phenethylamines, 2C-T-2 and 2C-T-7, which show promise as facilitators in psychotherapy, are compared to virgin use of MDMA (1). The purpose of the tests was to determine whether there were sufficient useful properties of the drugs to warrant further study, without contra-indicating side-effects. Drugs were administered in a friendly, supportive atmosphere with serene natural surroundings. Participants were requested to fill out a one-page questionnaire within a few days following the experience rating physical symptoms and various areas of functioning, and provide pertinent comments. Objectionable physical symptoms were minimal, and the majority experienced improvement in functioning in such areas as clarity of thought, flow of insights, communication with others, visual perception, energy level, feelings of well-being, and expanded dimensions of thought. Most found the experience valuable, and a large majority (41 to 4) would repeat the experience.
The objectives of the study were twofold. First, to determine whether the substances being explored show any potential usefulness for facilitating psychotherapy, for use as learning tools with regard to self, relationships, or the nature of reality, or as enhancers of functions like intuition, creativity, and clarity and range of thought. And second, whether they are free of readily noticeable, undesirable side effects. We hope through this preliminary study to stimulate further scientific research into these interesting compounds and to alert future researchers to possible contraindications.
~It actually makes me sad that MAPS does virtually no advocacy for the work of Shulgin and Nichols; although, it should be understood that MAPS is coming from a particular perspective, very in line with the medical marijuana movement, advocating the use of psychedelics as psychospiritual tools to treat psychiatric issues. Shulgin & Nichols' work is situated within the gigantic maw of pharmaceutical research and development. Perhaps the best way to present psychedelics as a legit field of study would be to look at them from a cognitive neuroscience perspective, looking at the neurophysiology of perception and differentiating this research from clinical applications in medicine and psychotherapy.
There's some research headed this way already, Shulgin wanted to study the metabolism of psychedelics in the body as to highlight particular receptor systems, so he radio-labeled 2c-I and DOI. Now that Shulgin's compounds are more difficult to work with because of politics, Nichols creates the NBOMe derrivatives and radio-labels 25i-NBOMe to investigate the human receptome. Most of the time though, these studies are done from a clinical psychiatric perspective, trying to develop new generations of anti-depressants, or ways to chemically characterize disorders like "schizophrenia" so as to chemically reverse engineer them.
The big difference though between Nichols and Shulgin is that Shulgin designed his compounds with the intent that they would be tested in humans. Sasha even went so far as to say it's unethical for a doctor to administer a medicine to a patient that he hadn't tried on himself and that it's impossible to assess a rat for changes in self-worth and this is why studying what psychedelics do subjectively in humans is imperative. Nichols, on the other hand, finds rat studies a valid way to assess receptor activity, and takes an ambivalent approach to the way his research is appropriated by the recreational community --except in times where he stops to make public service announcements in the media disavowing his research being hijacked by legal high makers. But it's important to note that Nichols isn't overtly developing compounds to be tested in humans and several compounds he developed are in fact NOT safe for human consumption and there's been a few fatalities with compounds Nichols developed .
What seems to be the problem more generally though is the way in which the next-generation stimulants (subsituted cathinones) and synthetic cannabinoids industries seem to be the biggest economies that are driving the R&D in the RC world and large amounts of media attention focusing on accidents/freakouts/disasters due in part to irresponsibility, and also in part because there's not enough resources on how to safely use/dose, and also the ethically questionable trend in legal high marketing that obscures the identity of the drugs you're getting) end up getting stuff like MDAI grouped in a ban with 2c-x's along side cannabinoids and cathinones in the US. How did that happen? I think we need to be better representatives of drug culture and start educating people more generally about what it is we're doing and how to party proper.
The recreational scene. The spirituality/therapy scenes. The neuro-perceptual scene. these should all be seen as legit areas of research and we need to start initiating on-the-ground as well as on-the-web conversations about this if we want this to change.
FractalStructure
Bluelighter
Im so glad this was stopped in the House. In the Senate no one said a word, and here Rand Paul is the one defending the 41 substances he knows nothing about, in the name of science and freedom. Damn, it should be abundantly clear to people who care about "freedom" in the US who to vote for in the next election 
(I don't mean to get too political but I feel like a statement about the Pauls is essential here)
Its like, you can pick that used car-salesman Romney or Obama again for another runaround, but if you care about the constitution, if SOPA and NDAA and this blanket ban bothers you, your best bet is Ron Paul, and if that fails, violent revolution, cuz thats the only way we're getting our rights back.
I feel like this cartoon helps prove my point. Its over 50 years old and is more revelent today than when it came out, it seems.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NyOfWGUDO8k
(I don't mean to get too political but I feel like a statement about the Pauls is essential here)
Its like, you can pick that used car-salesman Romney or Obama again for another runaround, but if you care about the constitution, if SOPA and NDAA and this blanket ban bothers you, your best bet is Ron Paul, and if that fails, violent revolution, cuz thats the only way we're getting our rights back.
I feel like this cartoon helps prove my point. Its over 50 years old and is more revelent today than when it came out, it seems.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NyOfWGUDO8k
Im so glad this was stopped in the House. In the Senate no one said a word, and here Rand Paul is the one defending the 41 substances he knows nothing about, in the name of science and freedom. Damn, it should be abundantly clear to people who care about "freedom" in the US who to vote for in the next election
(I don't mean to get too political but I feel like a statement about the Pauls is essential here)
Its like, you can pick that used car-salesman Romney or Obama again for another runaround, but if you care about the constitution, if SOPA and NDAA and this blanket ban bothers you, your best bet is Ron Paul, and if that fails, violent revolution, cuz thats the only way we're getting our rights back.
I feel like this cartoon helps prove my point. Its over 50 years old and is more revelent today than when it came out, it seems.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NyOfWGUDO8k
I'm sorry, did you mean that the "H.R.1254 - Synthetic Drug Control Act of 2011" was stopped and is no longer an issue? If so could you please provide a link? Thanks!
FractalStructure
Bluelighter
Dr. Drunk said:
It was put on indefinite hold by Rand Paul. It still exists as a bill, but this is a good sign.
http://capwiz.com/drcnet/issues/bills/?bill=50599936
"We believe these substances should be regulated rather than prohibited, and certainly that they should not be placed in Schedule I, which will have a chilling effect on research into their possible medical uses."
^Always a good sign.
I'm glad EK hasn't been jumping on the 2c band-wagon again though, I like how things with this shit have calmed down a little bit, almost seemingly to a normal level.
FractalStructure
Bluelighter
They did already. Methylone, MDPV, 4MMC. Hopefully thats how it will stay. Those are their main "drugs of concern" anyway.
HofmannBlotter
Bluelighter
Can someone told me what happens with the bill now ? What's going on ? The bill have passed ?
FractalStructure
Bluelighter
^ Look up H.R. 1254
No, it didnt pass. I wrote above what happened, just scroll up. There are articles in "drugs in the media" on this.
No, it didnt pass. I wrote above what happened, just scroll up. There are articles in "drugs in the media" on this.
michael_1992
Bluelighter
- Joined
- Aug 16, 2010
- Messages
- 92
Well,, what will happen is that people will start manufacturing similar but different compounds , and labelling them something that indicates that its not for human consumptions (similar to how bath salts got its name), in order to bypass the federal analog act. In the end, this will temporarily harm the RC market, but then it will all be replaced by new things.
Yes, they get more and more deviated from the original. Kind of like how MDPV, despite having a methylenedioxy group, is more similar to ritalin than mdma. The quality will go down.
It is quite possible for safety to get harmed too.
No, these chems will no longer be sold on the "grey market". Once they are explicitly schedule 1, the vendors may as well just sell LSD and mescaline , cause it would be similarly illegal. However, they may still sell them. Depending on their legality in the country of manufacture , and how easy the precursers are to get. The reason LSD is not commonly sold by vendors is not just because it is schedule 1 in the US, but because it is illegal in every country (even where possession is decriminalized, manufacture is still a crime) , the precursors are hard to obtain/heavily controlled, and its targetted more by law enforcement than most RCs that are made schedule 1. So there is no "safe" country for LSD manufacture. so most vendors will avoid LSD. it seems likely that some vendors will cease selling to americans, but there will still be many that supply these chemicals. as long as they are not banned in their country of manufacture. But even then , there will still be a black market for it. Yes, there will be many vendors selling fake shit as 2C-C after the ban. This will occur because : not many people own marquis kits in the US because they arent sold at any stores, there is a high demand for 2C-C, 2C-C is likely going to be banned, and there will be a decrease in legit vendors of 2C-C to compete with.
In the abscence of new breakthroughs in finding entirely new classes of psychedelics, the results will become shittier and shittier after each ban.
Yes, they get more and more deviated from the original. Kind of like how MDPV, despite having a methylenedioxy group, is more similar to ritalin than mdma. The quality will go down.
It is quite possible for safety to get harmed too.
No, these chems will no longer be sold on the "grey market". Once they are explicitly schedule 1, the vendors may as well just sell LSD and mescaline , cause it would be similarly illegal. However, they may still sell them. Depending on their legality in the country of manufacture , and how easy the precursers are to get. The reason LSD is not commonly sold by vendors is not just because it is schedule 1 in the US, but because it is illegal in every country (even where possession is decriminalized, manufacture is still a crime) , the precursors are hard to obtain/heavily controlled, and its targetted more by law enforcement than most RCs that are made schedule 1. So there is no "safe" country for LSD manufacture. so most vendors will avoid LSD. it seems likely that some vendors will cease selling to americans, but there will still be many that supply these chemicals. as long as they are not banned in their country of manufacture. But even then , there will still be a black market for it. Yes, there will be many vendors selling fake shit as 2C-C after the ban. This will occur because : not many people own marquis kits in the US because they arent sold at any stores, there is a high demand for 2C-C, 2C-C is likely going to be banned, and there will be a decrease in legit vendors of 2C-C to compete with.
In the abscence of new breakthroughs in finding entirely new classes of psychedelics, the results will become shittier and shittier after each ban.
HofmannBlotter
Bluelighter
I don't think that EU vendors care about this law just sayin'. Actually received some mails from some EU vendors and they clearly told me that they are not affected at all by the ban. He told me that he will still sell 2C-X compounds aswell with Tryptamines.
rocknroll702
Bluelighter
the eu vendors dont care i dont think either as 2c-x is and has been the same for the vendors they get it from for some time - the scheduling hasnt and wont change anything . now if your vendors are US based that could be another story.
FractalStructure
Bluelighter
Well...as of now there IS NO BAN.
EDIT: just on methylone, mdpv, and 4mmc.
Its not even "in the works" at this point. But I realize now, that most people only read the first post. lol.
EDIT: just on methylone, mdpv, and 4mmc.
Its not even "in the works" at this point. But I realize now, that most people only read the first post. lol.
HighonLife
Bluelighter
really?
cuz my vendor said they wont sent 2c's to the US when i ordered like 12 days ago, maybe i need to check again
EDIT: just checked and they still have shipping restrictions on the 2Cs
also just checked and they said they might not restock 4 aco dmt
guess i should just be happy i got mine in the mail today
cuz my vendor said they wont sent 2c's to the US when i ordered like 12 days ago, maybe i need to check again
EDIT: just checked and they still have shipping restrictions on the 2Cs
also just checked and they said they might not restock 4 aco dmt
guess i should just be happy i got mine in the mail today
Last edited:
Jesusgreen
Bluelight Crew
^ Shipping restrictions aren't always based on the current law.
Just so you know though, no vendor discussion is allowed - even passing mentions like that, because it just leads to the talk getting out of hand etc. I'm not going to edit your post in this case but yeah please avoid all mentions of vendors.
Just so you know though, no vendor discussion is allowed - even passing mentions like that, because it just leads to the talk getting out of hand etc. I'm not going to edit your post in this case but yeah please avoid all mentions of vendors.
HighonLife
Bluelighter
my apologies