Women and Badboys

[kytnism]

Wow, that was a long post...hopefully that's "the post to end all posts!"

amen.

...kytnism...

 

[Fawkes]

Those types that emphasize wealth, ambition, and social standing first also come off as selfish and shallow.

agreed, but again to each their own. i just feel you're giving women who want a confident, secure and ambitious man the short end of the stick. it's become clear to me that you use 'confidence' and 'cockiness' or 'narcissism' interchangeably and to say the least, i think they are very different attributes. (i will personally go on the record to say, as i've said in other threads before, that if i were to name three of the must-have attributes i want my partner to have, 'confidence' and 'security' would be #1 and #3. and ftr, i do in fact possess those qualities myself so it's only fair that i'm with someone who has them, too.)

Have fun with that. Coffee is a total creep with lots of issues!

he seems nice enough. i've got a bun in the oven so i'll take what flattery i can get these days.

And, this would have been a very different conversation if you didn't assume I was some sort of "sexist" who thinks that there should be some disparity between men and women.

please reread my comments. i never 'assumed' you were a sexist only that you were making comments you might not realize others perceive as sexist.

There is a key trait that I find desirable and essential for civilazation, and it's called humility. Lacking at least a few grains of confidence shows that a person is still trying to improve themselves and become a better person all the time.

confidence doesn't mean that you already think you're the best you can be, but only that you believe in yourself. that if you want to change and become better, you know that you can. i think this is our biggest disconnect - that we have differing views on what confidence actually is.

As to whether I feel "I've got it going on"? Naturally, sometimes I do, sometimes I don't. However, no matter what, people shouldn't go around saying shit like "Yeah girl, I gotz it going on yo!" in real life. People like that sound like real jackass fools.

ugh... to be fair, i *did* say 'for lack of a much better phrase'. and confident people don't go around saying that kind of shit; that's what people who are not confident do. have you ever heard of the phrase 'big hat, no cattle'? essentially, it's someone who acts the part of a successful person to give the outside world the impression they're successful, but out of the spotlight, they don't have the substance or resources to back that image up. people that are confident don't need to wear a big hat, because they know they have the cattle.

Yeah but, constantly thinking about yourself and your abilities or other people's abilities and all that stuff is narcissistic.

well, yes - that would be the very definition of narcissism, but like cockiness, confidence and narcissism are not interchangeable.

this is getting exhausting; i feel as though we're splitting some hairs now...

 

[Max Power]

I see MyFinalRest has moved from trolling CEP to trolling SLR. Good on ya, mate.

and that cattle analogy must be some kind of southwest thing. 8(

 

[freddy47]

this is getting exhausting; i feel as though we're splitting some hairs now...

@Fawkes Yeah tends to get that way with him. Have to say things just right with him otherwise you're an idiot in his eyes. And for someone who says people shouldn't take things personally he makes a lot of personal attacks. Calling people who disagree with him creeps etc.

My advice. Let it go. You must have better things to do than argue with Myfinalrest. At least I hope you do. Seriously I sincerely hope you do

Maybe knit something for your unborn child perhaps?

I don't know just a suggestion. Don't want the waves of negativity emanating out from Myfinalrest to somehow affect your kid.

 

[Fawkes]

and that cattle analogy must be some kind of southwest thing. 8(

you know me. *shrug*

My advice. Let it go. You must have better things to do than argue with Myfinalrest. At least I hope you do. Seriously I sincerely hope you do

Maybe knit something for your unborn child perhaps?

I don't know just a suggestion. Don't want the waves of negativity emanating out from Myfinalrest to somehow affect your kid.

knit something!?!? why 'cause i'm a girl and that's what girls do - knit!?!? just joking. it's slow at work so i'm killing time. i didn't mean to give the impression that i was arguing or feeling sour about the exchange. it's been a resonably respectful, though tiresome, discussion so all is well.

 

[MyFinalRest]

People here still have no idea what a "troll" is. This link will tell you:
http://encyclopediadramatica.ch/Troll

Max Power and freddy47 are just two people that lack the gutz to stand up to my education level and witty displays in CEP and resort to failed personal attacks all the time. I actually like CoffeeDrinker's disgruntled insults way better than these two.

Fair enough Fawkes. As long as people maintain your reasonable definitions of these terms, things can't get too bad. I don't think most people out there share your sensibilities.

P.S. all the guys are "whiteknighting" you because they've seen you how unbelievably hawt you are in some of those photothreads.
You should show off your debate skills in the CEP forum because you've guts, ambition, and intelligence and a feminist outlook, and CEP is one giant sausage loaf much in need of someone like you! It will also be good for your baby! It will make his/her brain grow hacking out various topics with me!

I've overstayed my stay in this forum, but CEP can totally handle me these days, so I travel back there for the most part. Nice knowing y'all!

 

[Jean-Paul]

another day of missing my own beautiful loser.

some of us just like the broken pretty boys, no sense in trying to analyze it. i like my heart in pieces, obvs

 

[freddy47]

Max Power and freddy47 are just two people that lack the gutz to stand up to my education level and witty displays in CEP and resort to failed personal attacks all the time. I actually like CoffeeDrinker's disgruntled insults way better than these two.

I smell an overwhelming stench of arrogance coming from you. You should get that checked out. Btw I don't think I've ever used personal attacks against you in CEP or anywhere else for that matter (except I suppose here just now). I have against Superelephant but not you. Get your facts straight before you start throwing accusations around. Someone with your high level of education should be able to do something as simple as that.

 

[Lysis]

I'd like to apologize to Lysis for being a bit "rough" in a previous post, but...she herself says she falls short on money from time to time, likes to stay home - alone too, has serious trouble feeling comfortable with other people, especially men, as she recently said, is "very shy IRL", she won't even try to enjoy herself on a "first date", and obviously she isn't a leading member of the Ft. Lauderdale community. So why does she keep saying she wants a man totally opposite of her?

She should go for a guy who is a bit insecure, shy, homebody who likes to spend "alone time" playing World of Warcraft, and who isn't particularly much of a guy with astounding "social ambitions." People should find people who "match" them and realize that "walking over people" who are, in fact, much like themselves, won't really make you feel good in life.

Huh? I said I'm shy, but I just don't enjoy first dates, because there are too many pressures put on BOTH parties. I am confident at work and with my abilities as a software developer. You're totally twisting my words. Put me in a room with a bunch of men at a career level, and I am totally confident in my abilities. However, at a social level, I am a loner and always have been. I have my good friends, some male and some female, but I am not hugely outgoing. More of a people watcher and listener than talker. Most of the men I date are not social. They are IT/programming geeks and I enjoy their company. They are thinkers, and I love that about them. Hell, my ex-BF and I played WoW together.

I don't care about social ambitions, but I do care about a guy who is confident about who he is and not someone who is wishy washy who wants to, let's say, be a lawyer one minute and next minute isn't happy with his life in general. A change is career is fine, but not someone who wants to just slide by his whole life. This is because I have a goal and I need someone to want to be my partner and not mooch off of me, which has happened in the past.

ETA: Oops, he said he's leaving. All is well again, so nvm.

 

[Renz Envy]

I would never cheat on a girl if I decided to relationship her.

I lost my virginity at 19 and since then I have slept with around 12 women and been sexual with over 20. (I am 20 years old now)

I am very attracted to girls who classify themselves as "nymphos" whether they also be narcissistic or sociopathic, it does not matter. Many girls would say I give off the vibe that I "Get around" however I was like this before I lost my virginity.

I was definitely a nice guy for a long period of time, but after a while the mileage wore on me. I felt like there really is no point in trusting a woman at my age, as I have seen so many "good girls" turn into complete slores after their second beer. Watching someone's trusted girlfriend of 2 years fuck around at a college party made me re-analyze what I thought was a fairy tale world.

Recently these girls in relationships came to me. Asking for sex. I felt tempted. A weaker heart may have accepted. I remembered the feeling of having someone cheat on me. My ex-girlfriend cheated on me with 4 people before I finally was fed the truth.

I'm not being sexist. Guys are just as bad, but until I can find a girl that shares the same characteristics as I do, I do not believe I will ever trust a girl again.

Love and trust cannot exist separately,
I can trust myself to never cheat, but can she even trust herself?

 

[MyFinalRest]

Fucking WoW is the shittiest, cheesiest, mutated abomination of Dungeons & Dragons anybody has ever thought of.

And this time, for real, I'll leave it at that!

 

[Lysis]

OK, bye.

WoW is awesome, dammit. AWESOME! (Says the girl who hasn't played in almost 4 years. I'm going back though!)

 

[Ninae]

Wow, this thread has got out of hand. I actually kind of agree with both sides who are arguing here, just based on personal experience. Or, I don't really like an extreme outlook either way, and feel it needs to be a bit more balanced. I'm aware of Pick-Up idiology, etc. but think it's swayed so much to the male sides it becomes too inconsiderate of female needs and wrong that way. Especially because people respond just as much to more friendly or positive behaviour and this could make you miss out on much of that. Also, because it's not so much the negative behaviour in itself that women are drawn to, but more the way this signals a lack of interest, or lower level of interest, which else always makes someone seem more attractive or high value, and despite of it because of their other attractive qualities.

Male opinions aren't always that relevant in my opinion as most men will simply speak out for their own side and what they feel comfortable believing it. A nice guy will speak our for that point of view, a bad guy will say that is what works, a Pick-Up kind of guy will take that side, someone against that will speak out towards that, etc. Also, as guys doesn't really know what it's like from the inside and only have reports of other men to rely on without really knowing what it feels like from the female point of view. and the more instinctual female reaction can often me more correct. Guys can also get too arrogant in this way as it's not something women normally apply themselves to or try to understand (as we have less need for it) and it's not like it's something that is too much of a challenge for a woman to learn, especially if you are quite good in both the rational and emotional kind of way.

But generally I would say that it's not as much the "badness" that women are drawn to as much as the strength. A man's main value is generally in how he can protect and provide for his woman and children and without this there's not as much use for one as we can manage quite well ourselves. But on the instincual level, or in a more primitive survival-related way of thinking this can be (emotionally) perceived as something of high value even if on a conscious level it is something that you feel resistance to. At least that's the only real worth I can find in it, apart from making a man appear more masculine, which also increases natural attraction.

In your initial post, you said that your biggest fear would be your partner losing his life. All I'm saying is that statistically speaking, not dating assholes provides you with the best chance of avoiding your biggest fear.

I would have to disagree with this, and might be able to give you a little suprise as it was also how I used to think, until a wise man who had spent much more time thinking it over pointed it out to me. Basically, although as I said there's not much value in negative behaviours in itself, a man needs to demonstrate that he's able to be cruel to qualify himself as someone who would be able to protect you/your home/children. This is because a man with too high a level of empathy would have no taste for fighting and could be unable to deliver the first blow, or have his heart really in it, which could mean he would get hurt/killed rather than the other guy, even if he was doing the more honourable thing and just trying to defend himself, and then in a more primitive society you would be fucked.

It's true that he's less likely to end up in such situations, but I think it's what would actually happens if he DID that really counts. And a man hiding himself away wouldn't really be that much use and could appear conflict-shy, in my opinion. But I do agree it's a balancing act and that supporing/encouraging this kind of behaviour kind of makes you an enabler, which is part of the whole reason I'm quoestioning it in the first place. I just think that women associete kindness with weakness, even if it's not really that way, and that is part of the problem. A badboy just comes off as more aggressive and better at self-defence, and I think this is why it can create actual attraction despite of the consequences of it.

 

[jazz hands]

A badboy just comes off as more aggressive and better at self-defence, and I think this is why it can create actual attraction despite of the consequences of it.

aggressive =/= good at self defense though. It's kind of the antithesis of self defense, actually. Anyone that is serious about self-defense knows that calm awareness is what you need.

 

[hiphophippy]

OK, bye.

WoW is awesome, dammit. AWESOME! (Says the girl who hasn't played in almost 4 years. I'm going back though!)

I would have to disagree with this, and might be able to give you a little suprise as it was also how I used to think, until a wise man who had spent much more time thinking it over pointed it out to me. Basically, although as I said there's not much value in negative behaviours in itself, a man needs to demonstrate that he's able to be cruel to qualify himself as someone who would be able to protect you/your home/children. This is because a man with too high a level of empathy would have no taste for fighting and could be unable to deliver the first blow, or have his heart really in it, which could mean he would get hurt/killed rather than the other guy, even if he was doing the more honourable thing and just trying to defend himself, and then in a more primitive society you would be fucked.

It's true that he's less likely to end up in such situations, but I think it's what would actually happens if he DID that really counts. And a man hiding himself away wouldn't really be that much use and could appear conflict-shy, in my opinion. But I do agree it's a balancing act and that supporing/encouraging this kind of behaviour kind of makes you an enabler, which is part of the whole reason I'm quoestioning it in the first place. I just think that women associete kindness with weakness, even if it's not really that way, and that is part of the problem. A badboy just comes off as more aggressive and better at self-defence, and I think this is why it can create actual attraction despite of the consequences of it.

Just because a guy doesn't outwardly express violence doesn't mean he doesn't have dreams and know in real life how to rip out someones trachea with his bare hands.

 

[Ninae]

aggressive =/= good at self defense though. It's kind of the antithesis of self defense, actually. Anyone that is serious about self-defense knows that calm awareness is what you need.

Yes, but I was thinking of it in a different way, like what would happen in a conflict/fight with MOST other men, not someone like a Martial Arts expert. I think most women just look for someone who looks like he would be tough in a conflict and this is mostly about aggressiveness and psychological strength. And that is what it's mostly about in today's society where physical fights are less common.

Usually the one who can generate the most aggression wins while the one with less backs down, one reason I'm not very good at it. Aggression has an explosive quality to it and is also a form of power, probably what most of us mostly associate with power, and is particularly a masculine thing or something I perceive as very masculine and connect with more masculine individuals. Also probably why I'm not that good at it and find it attractive in a man. Though before I started seeing it that way I was more repulsed by aggression in males. Just being conscious of it it can be very hot.

Big part of male/female attraction has to do with the attraction of opposites and masculine/feminine, so I do think it's a natural thing.

 

[mludd]

Ninae: The problem with defaulting to aggression is that most of the time it's the wrong reaction and will, one way or another, cause a worse outcome than simply avoiding trouble.

I once managed to walk away from two guys who were kicking me in the head because I didn't get aggressive and try to fight back. I could probably have beaten those two guys as they weren't exactly big. But, they had about half a dozen buddies about 20 feet away watching the whole thing so I opted for the "hey, stop it, I don't wanna fight" approach and it confused them and allowed me to walk away (with a broken tooth, a swollen nose and a bunch of bruises). An aggressive "bad boy" defaulting to violence in that situation would most likely have ended up permanently disabled even he was a Navy SEAL (assuming he was unarmed)…

Of course, there are times when aggression is the right way to solve a situation, in my most blatant barefoot hippie days I once got confronted by a few drunk skinheads. Realizing this was a pretty bad situation that I was unlikely to get out of peacefully I went into some kind of drunken rage and ran straight at them yelling all sorts of angry crap, somehow that actually intimidated them to the point that they apologized for their behavior. :O

Also, of all the people I've known throughout life the only ones who have found themselves in fights, getting arrested or beaten up on a regular basis (once a month or so as opposed to almost never for most men) have been the aggressive "bad boys" who would almost always go with the emotional and violent "solution" to interpersonal confrontations (interestingly all the men I've known who have at some point been accused of being violent toward their girlfriends have belonged to this group).

All in all, if a woman thinks I'm a "weak man" because I'm not stupid enough to put myself in dangerous situations for no good reason then that doesn't mean I'm weak, it means she's either an idiot or deluding herself into thinking idiot men are better partners.

 

[Cyc]

Yes, but I was thinking of it in a different way, like what would happen in a conflict/fight with MOST other men, not someone like a Martial Arts expert. I think most women just look for someone who looks like he would be tough in a conflict and this is mostly about aggressiveness and psychological strength. And that is what it's mostly about in today's society where physical fights are less common.

Usually the one who can generate the most aggression wins while the one with less backs down, one reason I'm not very good at it. Aggression has an explosive quality to it and is also a form of power, probably what most of us mostly associate with power, and is particularly a masculine thing or something I perceive as very masculine and connect with more masculine individuals. Also probably why I'm not that good at it and find it attractive in a man. Though before I started seeing it that way I was more repulsed by aggression in males. Just being conscious of it it can be very hot.

Big part of male/female attraction has to do with the attraction of opposites and masculine/feminine, so I do think it's a natural thing.

I think the only point we're cross-talking here is that there are ways to demonstrate masculinity without being outwardly aggressive. I'm thinking the strong/silent type who is respected not for his social dominance, but his ability to take care of business if needed.

When I'm playing competitive sports, I can be explosively aggressive, but at the end of the day, it's just me throwing a an adult version of a temper tantrum. I think when you boil it down, men are just big babies. Some just cry louder and flail around more than others.

 

[Ninae]

Ninae: The problem with defaulting to aggression is that most of the time it's the wrong reaction and will, one way or another, cause a worse outcome than simply avoiding trouble.

I know that and am that way myself (but I'm also not supposed to appeal to men or most wouldn't find it too appealing). I'm trying to say more that I can also see the other point of view and it has helped me in my relationship with the opposite sex and I see that as something positive.

Of course, there are times when aggression is the right way to solve a situation, in my most blatant barefoot hippie days I once got confronted by a few drunk skinheads. Realizing this was a pretty bad situation that I was unlikely to get out of peacefully I went into some kind of drunken rage and ran straight at them yelling all sorts of angry crap, somehow that actually intimidated them to the point that they apologized for their behavior. :O

Yes, my boyfriend is kind of a combination. I don't think someone who liked to hurt others just for fun could appeal to me. It's so stupid as well, which isn't really attractive. But I can understand if a man loses self-control or lets it go too far when being provoked or trying to defend himself, and this is mostly the way men get emotionally out-of-control, while this used to be something I just couldn't understand that would really horrify me. But I can see it more from the male perspective now.

Also, of all the people I've known throughout life the only ones who have found themselves in fights, getting arrested or beaten up on a regular basis (once a month or so as opposed to almost never for most men) have been the aggressive "bad boys" who would almost always go with the emotional and violent "solution" to interpersonal confrontations (interestingly all the men I've known who have at some point been accused of being violent toward their girlfriends have belonged to this group).

I agree, which has also been my fear about it, I just mean that not all guys like that need to be that way just because they APPEAR to be. Billy Idol is for instance very nicey-nice in real life and comes across like he wouldn't be able to harm a fly, which is kind of weird. But there are also guys like that who can be decent to women even if it's a good rule of thumb to be wary of them.

Generally, I think they need to be in love, or they will mostly treat women like shit. They're the type who can treat someone they love like a princess while being completely cold to most women and just taking advantage of them. But that way you can have some power over them, though I also think you need good social and relationship skills and know how to get the best out of a man as well, which most don't have exactly.

The excistence of guys like that are probably the main reason women feel the need for such a high degree of control over a man to be happy or they go crazy, even though it's not really necessary.

 

[MyDoorsAreOpen]

Gotta admire Ninae's candor. It sure is refreshing, considering the number of chicks I've heard say they want one thing but then go for another.

In response, I'll also be candid: I'm sure glad Ninae doesn't speak for all women.

Strength comes in many forms. One of them is knowing and respecting your own limitations. A sexy man never shows fear? Nonsense. James Bond is a fictional character; all real people, men included, feel fear. The real test of strength is not whether or not you admit you're afraid, but whether you allow this fear to control you and [mis]guide your actions. A lot of stiff-upper-lip traditional male conservatives, as well as most aggression-prone rebel type guys, are driven primarily by fear, and reflexively by their drive not to show it. But their actions, over time, reveal their true colors.

I say a woman who's turned off by any and all shows of fear in a man is pretty superficial. I'm very upfront with my wife whenever I'm in a situation where I'm over my head or out of my element, and always have been. I just don't stay in that situation staying scared -- I use that fear to motivate me to rationally come up with a way out of that situation.

Arctic is the poster in this thread I most relate to. I just don't deal in social dominance. If I'm in any kind of social setting where someone is trying to exert dominance over me, I literally ignore it and talk to them glibly as though we're on equal footing, which in my mind we are. I'll keep this up no matter how hard they try to tower over me, neither supplicating under pressure nor shoving them back harder. Usually they'll end up deciding they don't like me for some reason they can't put a finger on, and don't want to deal with me, which is fine by me if they won't deal with me on equal terms.