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The opposite of relaxed muscles - What causes it?

CrimpJiggler

Bluelighter
Joined
Aug 28, 2011
Messages
241
For a good while now a side effect I've been having when I take opioids is that my muscles get restless. I get this aggitated feeling throughout my body, the same feeling you get when you're forced to sit somewhere but you really want to get up and do something else. Its the opposite of having relaxed muscles. Now I'm even getting it when I take amphetamines. Usually amphetamines do the polar opposite, they make me so relaxed that I can (and often do) sit in one spot without moving a muscle for hours. It seems to get most intense if I combine amphetamines with opioids so I avoid that combo at all costs nowadays. Any ideas as to what might cause this kinda thing? I know that muscle relaxant drugs all seem to be GABA agonists so could this be a symptom of GABA deficiency? From what I read, opioids suppress GABA activity.
 
I just made an interesting observation. I took 1000mg of GABA, 250 of magnesium and 50 mg of vitamin B6 and gave it some time. Like the last time I tried it, none of that stuff did anything. I just threw a load of fruit in the juicer and made some juice and drank a glass of it. I'm starting to feel more relaxed by the minute. This is too improbable to be a coincidence. The other night this restless muscles bullshit lasted about 6 hours straight. Something in the juice has clearly cured the ailment. I suspect I am deficient in some kind of vitamin that the juice contains.
 
It is caused by your idiosyncratic (personal) dopamine receptors. For what ever reason parts of your brain that control movement are very sensitive. Perhaps you were on an antipsychotic for a long time? Or it could just be caused by your bodies reaction to addiction. It should go away on its on own if you ease up.

But that is just speculation which is the only thing we can do.
 
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Vitamin deficiency can cause restlessness and other things, i wouldn't doubt that if you're a white-bread, steak-and-potatoes kind of person that you're deficient in something or other. Enriched white flour only goes so far.

As for restless legs syndrome (RLS) on opiates and amphetamines, it is indeed correlated to dopamine activity... but in a rather complex and case-dependent manner. In general if you get "twitchy" on amphetamines it's time to reduce the dose or frequency thereof...
 
Given that certain vitamins and minerals are required to biosynthesize dopamine and that, as others have pointed out, RLS is a dopamine related condition, it's probable that you're deficient in one of the following - iron, vitamins B3, B6, B9, C, or zinc. You would probably benefit from an L-Tyrosine or a low dose L-Dopa (<50mg/day, beware of side effects) supplement - the latter is the precursor of dopamine and L-Tyrosine is the precursor of L-Dopa.
 
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I wouldn't recommend L-dopa without a doctor's word for it, it has a host of side effects if given to someone who doesn't need it, including muscle twitching.
 
It is caused by your idiosyncratic (personal) dopamine receptors. For what ever reason parts of your brain that control movement are very sensitive. Perhaps you were on an antipsychotic for a long time? Or it could just be caused by your bodies reaction to addiction. It should go away on its on own if you ease up.

But that is just speculation which is the only thing we can do.

No I've never taken an antipsychotic or any other dopamine antagonist but I want to so I can see what effect it will have on me. I'm very relaxed when I'm sober, the main reason I take dexedrine is for drowsiness. I tried heroin in the past and it cured my drowsiness but codeine and DHC by themselves seem to amplify it. I found the perfect combo which is to take a medium dose (around 50mg) of dexedrine first thing in the morning, then about 10-12 hours later, take a SMALL dose of opioids. This ensures that I'm in a productive mindset for up to 24 hours. Its taken me a long time to learn that higher doses of these substances doesn't produce additional beneficial effects, only additional side effects. Pharmacologists call this the "therapeutic window".

Vitamin deficiency can cause restlessness and other things, i wouldn't doubt that if you're a white-bread, steak-and-potatoes kind of person that you're deficient in something or other. Enriched white flour only goes so far.

As for restless legs syndrome (RLS) on opiates and amphetamines, it is indeed correlated to dopamine activity... but in a rather complex and case-dependent manner. In general if you get "twitchy" on amphetamines it's time to reduce the dose or frequency thereof...
I eat fairly healthy these days but I've always had gastrointestinal problems (ever since I had my appendix removed at least) so I suspect that I have trouble absorbing nutrients. In fact, that would explain everything. I wish there were some kind of empirical tests I could do to find out what nutrients I'm deficient in. I got a glucometer for €10 which is brilliant. You just prick yourself with a lancet then put a drop of blood on a test strip and blood reacts with the strip to produce electrical current and the device tells you your blood glucose concentration. Next time I stop taking dexedrine and end up extremely drowsy I'll test my blood sugar levels so I can rule out hypoglycemia as a potential culprit for the drowsiness. I've observed that when I'm in a highly relaxed and productive mindset my blood sugar is at around 4.2 mmol/uL. If its not any lower when I'm drowsy then I'll know the drowsiness is caused by something else.

As for restless leg syndrome, I heard of that but this restlessness is all over my body, not just my arms and legs. I even feel it in my head. Its pretty horrible, if I was in that state 24 hours a day and had no way out of it I'd probably consider suicide. Its a good wake up call though, I often forget that there are plenty of people living with ailments like that all day every day. I'm glad I'm on a good path (studying chemistry and pharmacology at uni) to do my part to help ease the suffering of these people in the future.

Given that certain vitamins and minerals are required to biosynthesize dopamine and that, as others have pointed out, RLS is a dopamine related condition, it's probable that you're deficient in one of the following - iron, vitamins B3, B6, B9, C, or zinc. You would probably benefit from an L-Tyrosine or a low dose L-Dopa (<50mg/day, beware of side effects) supplement - the latter is the precursor of dopamine and L-Tyrosine is the precursor of L-Dopa.
Thanks for the info. I've been taking B complex so I don't think I'm deficient in any of the B vitamins. Iron and zinc though, thats highly possible. I wonder if theres a simple, home test for determine iron concentration in the blood. I'm a chemistry student so I could come up with a test myself but I'd really need a spectrophotometer (to do some kind of chromoscopic test) to do it properly. I'm impressed by those cheap glucometers though. The glucose reacts with something on the test strips to produce an electrical current.
 
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I couldn't find any xanax or other normal benzos but I got a bit of zolpidem. I just insufflated 5mg to see if it cures this restless muscle state. I can't sleep right now because with those restless muscles its impossible to get comfortable and even when I do fall asleep I notice that I'm still in that agonising restless state while asleep. Zolpidem will put me asleep but I want to find out if it alleviates this restless muscle state. I'm feeling a bit dazed and dreamy after snorting that, I can't really tell if the restlessness is gone or if the zolpidem is just masking it. I have this extreme compulsion to take more zolpidem and this restless state always comes with OCD symptoms so I don't think zolpidem is mimicking any neurotransmitters that I happen to be deficient in. This restless muscle problem seems to prevalent among people with autism which is one of the reasons they do extreme "stims" such as putting their arms/legs into strain positions or punching themselves. I find that putting my arm into an extreme strain position it completely nullifies the aggetation all over my body. Gives me instant relief which feels pretty good. Its impractical to have my left arm pulled over my right shoulder from behind the neck all the time though so I need a more sustainable solution to the problem.
 
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Speaking for myself, amphetamines and opiates help RLS a lot so it would seem the "twitchiness" would be unrelated to RLS, maybe a lowering of the seizure threshold. I found this product, can't remember the name but can be found at walmart it's called "restful" or something, I don't understand the ingredients label it's manufactured in mexico, but goddamn it works well for me. In wondering if ADHD is a real disorder, I figure if I have RLS maybe it is though I still feel it's cultural deficit disorder in our society, sorry for the off-topic but that natural shit is great for those who suffer from RLS. I comprehend what you're saying tho
 
I couldn't find any xanax or other normal benzos but I got a bit of zolpidem. I just insufflated 5mg to see if it cures this restless muscle state. I can't sleep right now because with those restless muscles its impossible to get comfortable and even when I do fall asleep I notice that I'm still in that agonising restless state while asleep. Zolpidem will put me asleep but I want to find out if it alleviates this restless muscle state. I'm feeling a bit dazed and dreamy after snorting that, I can't really tell if the restlessness is gone or if the zolpidem is just masking it. I have this extreme compulsion to take more zolpidem and this restless state always comes with OCD symptoms so I don't think zolpidem is mimicking any neurotransmitters that I happen to be deficient in. This restless muscle problem seems to prevalent among people with autism which is one of the reasons they do extreme "stims" such as putting their arms/legs into strain positions or punching themselves. I find that putting my arm into an extreme strain position it completely nullifies the aggetation all over my body. Gives me instant relief which feels pretty good. Its impractical to have my left arm pulled over my right shoulder from behind the neck all the time though so I need a more sustainable solution to the problem.

hey man, i would suggest taking a break from drugs all together rather than trying to cover up the side effects they've been causing. it's only going to make the problem worse.

the restless legs you've been experiencing may VERY LIKELY turn into severe leg cramps, even more intense leg issues, and even some really awful pain if you just keep taking this route.

take a break. that's what your body wants...
 
Crimpjiggler-it sounds to me like the beginning signs of opioid withdrawal.

I'm on opioids myself, have been for a good few years for a knee injury, first codeine, quickly changed that to DHC, and just very recently to a combination of oxycontin and instant release oxy (bloody finally, something that actually works). What actually got me the oxy script ironically enough wasn't that the DHC wasn't enough to lessen my pain enough for me to walk without a stick (I'm 25 and shouldn't have to worry about that for 65-75 more years) but rather, that it doesn't last nearly long enough for me to sleep and not wake up in withdrawal, and since I'm utterly shite at keeping time (yay, thanks a crowbegotten bloody bunch dyscalculia) trying to stick to a regular dosing schedule would be an exercise in futility and frustration.

What served as my clock, was a combination of pain getting worse again, and opioid withdrawal. First thing about it that I ALWAYS experienced was akathisia, which is exactly as you describe 'restless body syndrome'. Have you ever experienced bona fide opioid WD? (by bona fide I am not belittling what you are going through as somehow 'not bad enough to be called real WD', but rather experienced something you can be completely certain was indeed opioid withdrawal?


Whilst I wouldn't rule out getting your ferritin levels tested, vitamin deficienci looked for, and tests done for other things which can cause akathisia just to eliminate the possibility of anything more serious it wouldn't surprise me if what you are going through is actually withdrawal of limited severity. I am unsure of your experience, or lack thereof, with opioids, so don't know if you would see withdrawal for what it is if it jumped up and bit you, which of course, is precisely what opioid WD is notorious for doing:/

If you have never gone through it (before), the initial symptoms are akathisia, piloerection thanks to the sympathetic overload going on, although given you take a sympathomimetic drug, i.e the dexedrine that may occur in the absence of WD, increase in libido (opioids suppress testosterone), sweating and being physically shaky.

You mention taking magnesium with a cocktail of other stuff, which helped. I think it quite likely was the Mg that did it, due to the fact that NMDA receptors have a large role to play in tolerance, and NMDA antagonists can attenuate tolerance to opioids, (or reverse existing tolerance?* *I just took my oxy, and went from mild withdrawal to a state involving significant ptosis, so can someone else check up on the tolerance reversal for me, I really don't feel much like digging through journals to find out right now)

Is it made worse if you lower the dose of opiate, or cease it entirely? if it is, then I think you just found the culprit.


Although....incidentally you mention autistic people stimming, and make the comparison to placing yourself in a position imposing significant physical stress on your body and that alleviates the akathisia. I am autie, I rock, spin round, exhibit the stereotypical hand-flapping stereotypy and it certainly does no such thing if I am in withdrawal. Never had akathisia until starting on regular opioids on rx, I used recreationally occasionally before that with no problems but I knew what was coming when I signed the devil's pact.


I agree with what others have said though, you are in for a world of hurt if you keep on the usage pattern you described.think what you deal with now is bad? it gets worse. Its like comparing a kick in the bollocks with having your eyeballs routed with a dentist's drill. And if the akathisia ISN'T caused by WD, then make that a drill with a dog-shit coated, syphilis infested drill bit.

Off topic \/

You are barking up completely the wrong tree when you spoke of the reasons and motivations for auties and aspies stimming. Many, or more probably, most, of us perceive the world far more intensely than our NT counterparts, sights, hearing, olfaction, tactile sensation, emotions. A lightbulb that is completely normal for someone with neurotypicality could be blindingly intense for an autie/aspie who is photosensitive, and our emotions, the high points can be intensely so, but the same unfortunately goes for the lows.

Stimming is an outlet for that, at least in parts. It is a method of exerting control over one's sensory input, and for some, an outlet for when things get too much in the way of overstimulation. And it feels good, feels like the completely natural thing to do. To me it would feel very strange, and very wrong if for some reason I suddenly no longer felt the desire to stim.
 
Don't forget the cannabinoids! Cannabinoid-receptor antagonists cause seizures, and agonists are muscle relaxants and perhaps antipsychotics (CBD). Does this cascade down to GABA/glutamate? Perhaps, but I think it could have its own signaling network too
 
My first thought was "withdrawal". I'd guess it finally happened, you get abstinence symtoms from the opioid dosage you're on, when it starts to fade.

Kick the opioids. Then the amphetamines. Then the Z-bensos. It'll keep you busy for a while.
 
Crimp, I cringed when I read this thread. Your description sounds like RLS, which I have, only 10 times worse, which I could never stand. I hope you find out what is causing this and get well because I'm sure you are more than miserable. I use klonopin for the RLS but I have taken the month of January off the kpin because I was getting totally immune to it. I am fairly miserable with my legs jumping around all night but I figure it will be worth it when I can go back to getting relief from the klonopin.

In the meanwhile I use heating lotion on my legs and take homeopathic restless leg supplements from the health food store.

Good luck and feel better.
 
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