Post-MDMA social anxiety? how to reverse it?

[trance in fraance]

After rolling 3x a month for the past 2 months i'm starting to lose the desire to hang out with my friends or just be social in general, all i want to do is hang out on my own and just do my own thing. whenever i get a call from someone wanting to hang i always make up some excuse as to why i cant hangout. i've been legitimately depressed prior to using MDMA, and went on a few Adderall binges over the summer, but it was never this bad, at least i'd wanna go out and see my friends. now its like im afraid to go out, its scary im thinking that the Social-anxiety is a result of damage to my serotonin (or dopamine?) system.

please dont flame me, i know the recommended time is once every month, or 3 months if you can. but MDMA just seemed to help me so much- after months of abuse from my 'parents' and becoming a social outcast after some drama at school i ended up letting it get out of hand, and here i am.
im trying to clean up, stopped using Adderall and im working out whenever i have the chance.
my diet is getting better and obviously i dont plan on rolling anytime soon.

Does anyone have any advice as to what i should be doing to help/promote recovery?
if you've gone through something like this what did you do, and how long did it take to recover?

thanks in advance everyone

 

[georgewc2001]

I'm a little ways into this myself at the moment after a 6-8 week binge of 100 pills or so...this is to be expected. I've been through it before and I can tell you from experience, it will end. You need to keep busy and lead a healthy lifestyle...diet, sleep and exercise need to be on point. As far as socializing goes, do your best. Remember, when you're rolling you love socializing more than normal, so now you're going to experience the opposite until your brain balances out. Try listening to some music to boost your mood a bit and see if you feel more like socializing. Also, when you socialize, do it with people you feel the most comfortable with so as to limit anxiety and boredom. More than anything, just have patience and don't think about it too much. Time will heal your brain...then its time for more fun! ;-)

 

[First Bad Comedown]

Wow.

Hey george...
Um, were you aware that 'heavy' users of MDMA typically reach 100-250 doses before they STOP?

You did more than a DECADE worth of rolling in 2 months?
Jesus Christ man!

Warning - some MDMA users do not experience real symptoms of depression or anxiety until MONTHS after they stop.
I strongly suggest you wait at LEAST a year before rolling again, buddy.

Trance, one word - EXERCISE.

There is no more effective tool.
Take it from someone with far more brain damage than you.

Working out, even ten minutes a day, will be a salvation for you.
It releases a serotonin nerve growth factor, BDNF.
It increases synaptic plasticity and capillary density.

Only exercise can really speed the recovery of your brain.
And time.

Force yourself to interact, even if it is hard.
Maintain eye contact and speak to people.

No, you don't have to tolerate loud obnoxious environments.
But you need interaction, especially while your brain is being re-wired.
Force yourself to go out.

If I could do it with a complete destruction of my soul, you can overcome some social anxiety.

And force a few pushups, dammit.
You will be SHOCKED at the benefits.
Good luck.

 

[trance in fraance]

thanks fbc, i've seen abunch of your posts and they're really motivating tbh.
would you recommend aerobic or anaerobic excersize? does it even matter haha

 

[Bsiren]

I abused MDMA for my first 6 months of use, and I suffered the "opposite of rolling" type effects you did- you can come out of it.

Nothing will ever substitute giving yourself time off, and nothing will pull you out of this like time off will- so do so.

I find exercise extremely beneficial for mood and depression, especially working out to the music you used to roll to. Read positive MDMA trip reports as well, and that can help you emotionally a bit (provided it's not just inspiring you to roll too soon).

Through all the abuse of MDMA, I still feel like I've benefited tremendously from the experiences in a permanent way, and I now respect it and roll 3-4x a year. Not because I have to, but because I choose to keep it special and infrequent.

 

[georgewc2001]

Lol...appreciate the concern first bad comedown, but 100 pills is a drop in the bucket compared to my lifetime usage...i'll be fine and don't forget that pills nowadays are about 1/3 the strength of the golden years, so i really only equate that to about 30 pills or so ;-)

I usually binge in the fall for a few months and then take the rest of the year off completely. It's hard for me to roll once every three to four months cause i love it so much. I usually have to just do to the point of getting sick of it and then quit. BTW...you are dead on with the exercise advice. I exercise all the time in many different ways...in fact i'm 32 and in the best shape of my life.

Trance, do both aerobic and anaerobic...you'll be in great shape and pushing your limits. The endorphins will feel good and improve your mood, confidence and sleep.

 

[Renz Envy]

The human mind is resilient and capable of mastering relativity in all forms.

Regardless of its state of deficiency causing a depression, a positive move forward in your life will supplement a solution.

Go out with your friends, eat healthy, you will come back from this state a stronger person with more respect for the limits of your mind and fully understand moderation is key in drug use.

 

[Darksidesam]

Trance, one word - EXERCISE.

As first bad comedown said, Nothing is more important than that! it also raises your self confidence, but let me tell you this. When i go on a down mood swing, where i even begin to Feel more than think suicidal thoughs there are Only 2 things that will stop them, and they are Doing my weights or some ketamine.

 

[georgewc2001]

^Lmao...or some ketamine...i find when i start thinking lots of suicidal thoughts that the realization that in all honesty and actuality i couldn't do it, i might as well stop wasting time thinking about it and move the fuck on.

 

[First Bad Comedown]

I find that aerobic carries the greatest immediate benefit, while lifting weights carries a lingering benefit that accrues over time.
When my head-pressure was at its worst, I found running to be very difficult.
But I could lift weights at least ten minutes per day without complication.

I was shocked to learn that if I continued even modest exercise over a period of 5 days, that ALL my anxiety and pain would VANISH for two glorious days after that.

I was no stranger to working out when this all began for me.
But the benefit I received this year from modest exercise FAR exceeds my greatest expectations.

Weight lifting is now considered the better practice by experts.
While cardio certainly has benefits, it is no longer considered to be the leader in burning of calories.
And excessive cardio actually steals muscle mass from training athletes.

Tearing muscle fibers causes the body to burn more calories for about 48 hours post work-out.
The increased metabolism has staying power, but it is the release of BDNF in the brain that makes exercise SO helpful to people with anxiety or depression. If you make sure to include exercises that focus on larger muscle groups like the chest, shoulders, and legs - the pituitary releases growth factors that improve gains in mass. You can focus on curls all you want, but without the larger muscle groups you will never attain real gains.

It is important to point out that with ANY type of brain injury, whether from gun shot, stroke, or TBI - physical exercise is ALWAYS the treatment of choice. Nothing improves brain plasticity more than working out.

Cardio actually provides great exercise for legs and glutes if you are running.
And it produces more blood vessels in the brain, so it should not be neglected.
You really shouldn't chose between them...
But if you are looking for advise that allows you to pick...

I would go with weights.
Even a modest regimen, if repeated, will provide such powerful benefits that you will want to continue.
I have been working out daily for over 2 years, but within the first 2 months I KNEW I wasn't going to stop.
It takes at least two weeks to see visible results, but if you can push it further you will know everything we are telling you to be true.
Humans were MEANT to exercise on a regular basis, and only our modern culture allows us to survive without it.

George...
Yes, I am concerned about you.
But I am glad to hear you are not a college kid like most BLers.
At least you are adult enough to make your own decision and live with the consequences.

I have seen a few like you that claim lifetime totals into the hundreds.
According to my experience, you are probably NOT a long-term heavy cannabis user.
This is not true of many BL members.

Even if you ARE a daily smoker, there is substantial evidence that it is a grave risk factor for most people.
I have NO doubt that it played a role in my eventual down-fall.
Why, oh why, couldn't I have done all my ecstasy when I was YOUNG?

I'm 30 years old, and also in the best shape of my life.
I must oppose you for your statements about how well you have tolerated heavy MDMA use.

I am prepared to believe that you and others can tolerate many hundreds of doses without reacting like me.
Chitown Rollin claims to have taken 800 doses over 4 years!

But there is solid data that shows MOST MDMA users discontinue within 100-250 doses.
This is the trend, and it is this way for a reason.
You are the exception in one direction, I in the other.

I believe that there are a group of users that are simply NOT capable of reaching higher totals.
Whether from genetics, cannabis, or psychological health...some can and some CANNOT.
Even in lab animals, there is a range of damage seen with identical doses.

But research also proves that REPEATED doses damage ALL subjects.
There is not a SPECIAL group of rodents or primates that is immune to the neurotoxicity.
With this in mind, it should be assumed that your self-report is lacking in some way.

Have you REALLY suffered no consequence?
Or have you simply adapted well?

And how significant is this adaptation?
Even with a near-death experience and MAJOR brain re-wiring, I must admit that the cognitive alterations are pretty damned subtle.
Most of my original personality has remained intact and my reasoning skills are still solid.
Verbal acuity has dropped, more on some days than others. This is an easily detected change in research.

I am not so concerned with cognitive or language changes.
I do not believe that they constitute the greatest loss from MDMA induced damage.
I believe that changes in emotions, more specifically visceral emotions, fall victim to this powerful drug.

Your intestines are literally wired to the highest emotional center of your brain, in the prefrontal cortex.
This is where feelings like guilt/remorse and EMPATHY arise.
These are uniquely HUMAN emotions, and they required many billions of years to evolve!

Regardless of the extent of my recovery and the flexibility of my cognitive capabilities...
I still detect a loss in the subtle visceral emotions of life.
These higher emotional functions would be VERY difficult to study.
They are likely escaping detection in research.

How do we devise the questions to examine such subtle emotions?

I do not like people dick-sizing on BL about their pill counts.
Even if they are indeed intact, and have not lost the 'subtle' emotions I speak of...
It simply serves no benefit to others.
All you have done is encourage others to dose carelessly.

MDMA is such a powerful drug that people need to be cautioned, not encouraged to charge forward.
There are far more people that stop within 100 doses than your posts would suggest.
And anyone that has the potential for real 'damage' may be harmed by statements like yours.

I have gotten into arguements with others talking about their pill counts before.
I have no desire to do it tonight.
But I am going to call you out on this and say that you probably DO have some subtle emotional changes that you are either unaware of or in denial about.

And if I am wrong, so what?
You still have no business posting like that in a 'harm reduction' forum.

I speak of science more than more own personal story.
And it tells a rather damning tale about our favorite drug!

 

[trance in fraance]

thanks for the responses guys, really appreciate it
guess ill just keep my head high, hopefully i can abstain from any amphetamines for the next few months. i think im gonna do a fast or cleanse within the next few weeks, then pick up some Lions Mane mushroom or St. Johns Wort.

St. johns wort upregulates 5HT receptors and Lions Mane increases NGF from what ive read so im assuming they'll speed up my recovery

 

[georgewc2001]

@fbc...remain calm...i'm not trying to dick size here, i just wanted to give the op a little comfort in knowing i've taken large quantities and recovered fine many times. there are people on here that get very paranoid after taking more pills than they think they should have and i don't think we need to make them feel worse with articles on brain damage when they're already highly concerned. A lot of recover has to do with mind over matter. The mind is powerful and you can very easily think yourself into more depression and anxiety. Conversely, you can also very easily think yourself into feeling better and all of the things you mentioend like exercise, sleep and diet help.

After my honeymoon phase of ecstasy use which laste a good 2-3 years, i did have some lingering anxiety which eventually disapated, but i was using plenty of other drugs at this time as well and pills back then were way stronger. I'm actually far more concerned for people that have used lsd more than 10 or 20 times...i've seen permanent personality changes in these people, so i stopped taking it early on.

As far as pot goes, i used to smoke heavily but after heavy mdma use, pot began triggering anxiety so it was no longer a pleasant experience. haven't smoked in years. On the topic of permanent noticeable changes, which if mdma would cause them i would have them because of the amount of usage (although like you said everyone is different), it's really tough to say because it's been so many years since i started and people change over the course of time anyway. It would be hard to attribute anything in particular for certain to mdma. I really do feel at the core level to be the same person i was before I started it, albeit with a greater sense of my self.

The main issues I see in using mdma over the long term are not depression and anxiety and some of the emotional issues you mentioned. Rather I'd be more concerned with the long term focus of ones life. As many articles will describe, mdma is not physically addictive, but it is very mentally addicitive espeically in that it can take on a heavy role in the users life and become consuming...in other words you can begin to obssess over it without even realizing it. I think it's very important to take long breaks (6 months or more) so that you're to a point where you can see yourself going the rest of your life without ever taking it again. It's important to keep focused on the things that interest you in life and long term goals that are not mdma related.

For me, the most annoying complication when i stop mdma is a sort of mood swing that happens as my brain is bringing itself back into balance. Dropping ecstasy creates a sort of a giration in the brain that takes time to even out. And, it's not the down swing where my mood is low that bothers me but the upswing where i'm overly excited and happy about things. The brain is not perfect at fixing itself. It doesn't read that seratonin is low so increase to such and such level and fine. It may bring you back up too high then shut off then back on and up and down until it finally reaches baseline. It's this period of recovery that's annoying, but the brain does eventually recover ime.

I could go on here, but just wanted to give you some insight into my experience and please keep in mind in your harm reduction that sending people to the moon with concern after they're already scared may not be the best approach to "harm reduction."

 

[llama112]

Look into this vitamin called GABA. I've been using it daily and I highly recommend it. You can use like two or three a day if you want. I have anxiety (not from MDMA use but in general ... and mostly social anxiety) and I have been taking it for a few months and it REALLY helps. I haven't found it in stores but it can be ordered online. Anyway, I take it every morning and it works great to reduce anxiety for me anyway. From personal experience, I *think* that GABA increases MDMA tolerance. So if you're going to do MDMA again, stop taking GABA for a few days beforehand. I don't have tons of info to support it, but that's my guess from experience.

Like others have said, exercise! Eat well! Make yourself go out with friends. Those things will all help

 

[gnarleyonaharley]

@ trance: i have gone through this exact same thing before but i don't necessarily attribute it to rolling...i've always had high anxiety and would sometimes get depressed (similar to you) so don't be so quick to jump to the conclusion that ur usage has caused your social anxiety. i think that bc u feel that u did something wrong by using more than u typically should, u are causing ur own anxiety and not the mdma. try to spend some one on one time with your closest friend and then work from there...isolating urself only leads to more anxiety...once u start exercising get to hang out with even just one friend, u will start to notice a difference. hope this helps.

 

[First Bad Comedown]

George.

I am quite calm.
So calm, I'm nearly dead.

I find this follow-up post of yours to be very well-written and honest.
Much more mature than some of the other debates I have taken part of.
Well done.

Simply leaving room to admit that it changed you is MORE than most MDMA users are capable of.
I agree with your statement that the 'core' remains intact, despite my alarming statements.
If I agree with this, then it must be true for most.

I should note that I know several BL members that would not make such a forgiving claim.
A minority of people do indeed change, like your LSD using friends, and struggle with intense anxiety and social dysfunction for YEARS. But in general, people do recover function.

I both agree and disagree with your claim that the brain is powerful enough to both create and overcome the anxiety caused by MDMA. Yes, there is a valid argument here and TOO many people on BL think it is the ONLY one on threads like this. My experience tells a different story.

There is a portion of people who recover within weeks.
For this population, mind control techniques seem to work well.
The unfortunate people who do not recover in the first 2 months, normally take a solid year or longer.
This is seen in research, with heavy users taking up to 2 years for 'clinical' recovery.

Some on BL, perhaps not you, would argue that the difference between these two groups is a matter of discipline, choice, and mind-over-matter.

While there is SOME truth to this, it is also laughable.
It is much more logical to assume that the second population has true brain damage or 're-wiring'.
As a result of greater serotonin degeneration, anxiety is greatly increased and perhaps NECESSARY for the re-wiring process. I have seen MANY people make 'mind-over-matter' statements only after many MONTHS of intense suffering!

It is pretty amusing to see people that have emerged from the depths of despair to calmly conclude that they fixed it through mind-control. It is more likely that months of suffering ALLOWED them to reach a state of mind-control. Not the other way around.

Those just beginning the journey deserve an honest account of just how BAD it really is.
Not jut how easy it becomes after a YEAR.
I see the SAME behavior in a group of former SSRI users that I listen in on.
The ones just beginning are OBSESSED with every symptom and treatment.
Seeing them go back and forth is eerily similar to the MDMA users I have counseled.
Once they pass the one year mark, maybe 18 months, they tend to make statements about 'mind-over-matter' and just remaining calm.

It is the suffering and anxiety over TIME that allows the brain to calm down.
Not just force of will.
Those that can exert this behavior early on, arguably are NOT experiencing the same level of 'brain damage' as the rest.
For this reason I normally tell OPs like this one that they will probably recover within 2-3 months.
If they don't, it looks like 1-1.5 years is the trend.
Then I give them, and other readers, valid and alarming scientific data and anecdotal experience.
Threads like these are not only meant to argue mind-over-matter...
There is a greater purpose, and it does indeed lead to harm-reduction.

Your statement about not liking cannabis after heavy MDMA use is the greatest evidence that it did change you. Heavy cannabis users can experience this phenomena in the absence of other drugs, but MDMA has a talent for destroying the positive effects of smoking pot.

My greatest panic attacks this year arrived just after smoking, including one that involved a suspected stroke! In my opinion...

Cannabis and most drugs rely on the brain having an EVEN blood distribution.
If blood perfusion is not close to average in ALL brain regions, then the effects of the drug are changed.
Like a symphony that is out of sync, some regions of the brain are in discord with the rest.
The THC is not carried into all relevant pathways, and the subsequent release from the endocrine system also does not strike the right notes.

MDMA causes decreases in regional brain blood perfusion for many weeks/months.
MDMA can cause increases as well, which are considered hallmark signs of neurotoxicity and the 're-wiring' of the brain. This can take over a YEAR.

Serotonin has powerful effects on cerebro-microvasculature, or small blood vessels in the brain.
And cannabis does increase serotonin in the brain.
Altered serotonin transmission and blood vessel distribution does indeed cause PANIC attacks or anxiety when cannabis is used.

And it sucks.

 

[Nottamous]

I abused MDMA for my first 6 months of use, and I suffered the "opposite of rolling" type effects you did- you can come out of it.

Nothing will ever substitute giving yourself time off, and nothing will pull you out of this like time off will- so do so.

I find exercise extremely beneficial for mood and depression, especially working out to the music you used to roll to. Read positive MDMA trip reports as well, and that can help you emotionally a bit (provided it's not just inspiring you to roll too soon).

Through all the abuse of MDMA, I still feel like I've benefited tremendously from the experiences in a permanent way, and I now respect it and roll 3-4x a year. Not because I have to, but because I choose to keep it special and infrequent.

I echo this completely. This is/was/will be exactly my experience.

Take time off. . .

time off = a year, maybe more NOT a few weeks.

 

[trance in fraance]

Look into this vitamin called GABA. I've been using it daily and I highly recommend it. You can use like two or three a day if you want. I have anxiety (not from MDMA use but in general ... and mostly social anxiety) and I have been taking it for a few months and it REALLY helps. I haven't found it in stores but it can be ordered online. Anyway, I take it every morning and it works great to reduce anxiety for me anyway. From personal experience, I *think* that GABA increases MDMA tolerance. So if you're going to do MDMA again, stop taking GABA for a few days beforehand. I don't have tons of info to support it, but that's my guess from experience.

Like others have said, exercise! Eat well! Make yourself go out with friends. Those things will all help

i think that GABA is a neurotransmitter, although i could be wrong
would you say that it'd be helpful with depression?

 

[georgewc2001]

@FBC...look i don't know what your experience has been, pun intended. what i do know is that myself along with what must be at least 50 other friends from my club days who all rolled like i did every weekend, if not more often, for years are fine. we are not permanently damaged in any way and, in fact, we look back on those times as probably the greatest of our lives...not as you would suggest as a dark period where we were battling depression and anxiety. and i'm sure there are hundreds of others that are just the same. I'm not trying to discount your experience here in any way. I'm just pointing out that there is a vast majority of people out there who are not living in great regret over using mdma. my guess is most would relive that period in their lives in a heartbeat if given the opportunity, but as you get older responsiblities like family and kids take priority. if you've come on this forum to demonize mdma, then maybe you've come to the wrong place cause i'd guess most of the mods and others who run this thing are fans of mdma, but i'll let them speak for themselves.

 

[First Bad Comedown]

Hey George.
Fair response.

I make lots of strong statements and warning about MDMA.
But I have not once said it should NEVER be done.

If I were intent on 'demonizing' it, I am surely holding back.
No matter what your friends and you believe, the data on MDMA strongly suggests ongoing loss of serotonin function.
It is quite likely that some people achieve this loss very slowly, adapting as they go.
While others are plummeted, quite suddenly, into the depths of suffering.

It is the sudden 'axotomy' that prevents proper adaptation.
But there is no reason to believe that long-term use of MDMA, esp. in the hundreds of doses, is without definitive neuroendocrine consequence.

Funny.
All my friends that rolled when I was in high school...they don't anymore.
Several of them claim to HATE ecstasy and do not look back fondly at their previous excess.
More recent friends back up this assessment.

You may personally see a trend of non-regret, but I find the opposite.
I must admit that they do not exert nearly the same energy I do on the subject.

I accept the fact that I am in the minority.
From the beginning I believed it was serotonin syndrome caused by DPH, and this alone places me in a special group.
But I have met way too many people on BL that have suffered extreme consequences to conclude that my story is that rare.

In general, your responses are respectful and fair.
And you don't argue about the science.
So I have no problem with you stating your own experience and calling mine into question.

Some mods actually like my contributions, while others seem to avoid interacting with me entirely.
Socalthizzn is the only exception, and it appears he gave up trying to moderate a forum with me posting constantly.

The truth is, this is the BEST place for my perspective to be heard.
Fans of MDMA abound, and many thousands of people have read my posts that have not been BL members.
In addition to the 30 or so people I have counseled about recovery, there was one individual that swore my advice saved their life during an acute reaction!

Even if we represent the minority, we are under represented.
This is because too many people in 'recovery' fail to share their stories on BL.
They struggle with daily life, so convincing other people about what is happening to them is out of the question.

I see threads where MODS stop an OP in their tracks because they happen to break the rule - What did i take?
Questioning the contents of the drug is common among people with 'brain damage' or anxiety, yet their ENTIRE plea for help is squashed because of a technicality.

Shame on Bluelight for this.
It is ridiculous and it spits in the face of true harm reduction.

When the threads are left open...
There is no shortage of MDMA users on BL who suggest EVERYTHING BUT real data.
The first line of defense is adulterated product.
Then suggestions of pre-existing conditions are brought out.

Why am I the only one who recognizes these as tactics of denial?
Sure adulterated MDMA is a great concern, but there are SO many threads that we should assume MDMA is normally the cause. Bringing up such a weak excuse every single time an OP comes to BL is WRONG.

Shame on BL members that do this.

It is time that the internet's greatest drug-discussion community hear from the silent minority.
There are more of us than you think.
And there is a SHOCKING amount of MDMA research to learn from.

Did you ever wonder why MDMA has been studied so prolifically?
That is a clue right there.

The brain-gut circuitry is quite fascinating to medicine...and SSRIs provide BILLIONS of dollars in revenue.
Knowledge is power...and money.

I am just translating a little bit of knowledge to the drug users on this site.
For free.

 

[korei]

i think that GABA is a neurotransmitter, although i could be wrong
would you say that it'd be helpful with depression?

yeah GABA is a neurotransmitter/amino acid with receptors in the brain. It balances out calmness and anxiety in you. So, drugs like alcohol, xanax(benzodiazapines), ghb, kava...attach to the GABA receptor and make you calm, pleasant, comfortable and low in anxieties. all of these could be useful to you...but using them everyday causes addiction/tolerance/withdrawal. (except kava)
have a few drinks, laugh and hang with your friends...let it just be a boost to get you back into to doing it normally.

GABA powder as a supplent that you can buy supposedly can't cross the blood brain barrier enough to have any real effect. although you might get a mild effect with high doses.

Im not sure if GABA has any relation on MDMA tolerance like the other poster said...havent seen any info on this. I can say as a pretty heavy drinker (frequent alcohol gaba)...i've always needed higher doses of MDMA to roll. Even from my 1st time.