Just switched from Dexamp to Methamp (ADHD) potency Q

[pofacedhoe]

Mine actually says "Methamphetam" For whatever reason they don't put the full chemical name on there...

I find the Generic to be superior as well. I haven't taken it in about a year though. I'm probably going to start using it come this spring for school, but I'm never taking stims everyday. My limit is 2-3 times a week, usually 2.

nice to see an american with common sense when it comes to use of adhd meds.

 

[Roger&Me]

Mine actually says "Methamphetam" For whatever reason they don't put the full chemical name on there..

Sometimes they only print a certain number of characters in the name line, and if the name of the med is longer than that it just gets cut off.

 

[negrogesic]

I cannot at all relate to your strange reaction to the dexmethamp, negrogesic. Which is why I was happy you supplemented it with a closer inspection of your ADD profile. Over fifteen years I've made movement from (worst- to best-tolerated) Straterra, Caffeine, Methylphenidate/LA, Concerta, Adrafinil, Provigil, Racemic Amphetamine Salts/XR, DexMethylphenidate/XR, Lisdexamfetamine, Dextroamphetamine/XR, and just recently got myself 4x 5mg DextroMethamphetamine HCl tablets.

The Desoxyn outshines the efficacy of *any* of those other pharmaceutical models of AD(H)D treatment, along with being a keenly effective antidepressant and has the promising side effect of markedly reducing my irritability. I've become Vaya 2.0 but without seeming jacked-up or "high" whatsoever; it's simply the "me" that was trapped inside of my psychiatrically-ridden self has been able to break through and I feel as though I have always fantasized others - the "normies" - must feel in their day-to-day lives.

It's serotonergic properties doubtfully surpass its efficacy wherein we consider DA/NE release, but activity at the 5HT receptors explains the medication's prolific antidepressant effects.

Strangely, I feel that this medication leaves me feeling like it's alright, even desirable(!) to eat food and get proper sleep at night. The IR halflife is nearly twice as long as that of any other amphetamine prescription drug, and nearly half the dose (by comparison with Dextroamphetamine, for which I have a profound affection) is only required to achieve more acute symptomatic relief with a broader spectrum of therapeutic benefit and next to ---z.e.r.o.--- PNS disturbance - the absolute number one issue I decided to make the leap and suggest to my doctor a move to Desoxyn.

On ADDforums.com, though, I certainly have seen people react to it the way you describe, and in that situation, many (if not all) of those posters had found their relief via dextromethylphenidate (Focalin) which, I agree, would be my third choice (after dexamp and dexmethamp), despite its racemic mixture ("Ritalin") coming in dead last when Straterra isn't counted.

Regarding the insurance issue, I have decent health insurance and a bottle of 120 5mg dextromethamphetamine tabs (Mylan Pharmaceuticals) costs just under twenty bucks. Without insurance, though, the same bottle, quantity and brand is $330 8(

I hope that by now, however, you have found what it is out there that may prove the most promising and with the best longevity for your specific ADD issues. This just happens to be mine, and I was never a crystal freak when I used to use the stuff illicitly.

~ vaya

I am glad you found an effective medication and a psychiatrist with the 'balls' to write it. And perhaps with the Mylan generic, the medication could be utilized in patients who responded well to Desoxyn, but could not continue treatment due to price.

I don't see any serious issues concerning increases of abuse and diversion of the medication as a result of price reduction; you would be hard-pressed to find prescriptions in excess of 5mg qid (or some variation of 20mg/day), yet it is not uncommon to find patients receiving 120mg of adderall/day. And from my experience, Adderall is in practice the most 'recreational' of the ADHD medications. Interestingly, some individuals prefer illicit d,l-meth or some impure variant to the now relatively common pure d-meth. I believe they used to call it "prop-dope", given that the phenyl-2-propanone derived meth was the racemate.

 

[Vaya]

I am glad you found an effective medication and a psychiatrist with the 'balls' to write it.

Thank you It took me years to muster up the courage but I couldn't be happier with it.

Interestingly, some individuals prefer illicit d,l-meth or some impure variant to the now relatively common pure d-meth.

By "now relatively common," are you suggesting that its been demonstrated now as opposed to years past that most street methamphetamine is pure d-meth? I wasn't aware of that. Maybe all those cooks finally went to culinary school. But I've dabbled with illicit meth a bit before and THAT stuff, regardless of whether it was crystalline or powdered, got me high. Desoxyn feels nothing like illicit methamphetamine; it's soothing, kind of wistfully complacent and feels as though it naturally collects my thoughts.
...So I agree with you that if all those who get dex/amphetamine and divert it were to switch to Desoxyn, they'd have a very brief surge in interest due to the fact that "...DUDE you get scripted meth???" but then people would try it and realize what's what.

~ vaya

 

[negrogesic]

Phenylacetone as an illicit methamphetamine precursor has been increasingly replaced with the far more accessible ephedrine/pseudoephedrine.

 

[SNR]

I know it's probably not my place, but the OP seems to have concern about neurotoxicity associated with D-Methamphetamine. Good call too, D-Methamphetamine is definitely (very) neurotoxic. Check out this thread, it's got a ton of studies on potentially protecting against amphetamine induced neurotoxicity.
http://www.addforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=48296

~snr

 

[Vaya]

Phenylacetone as an illicit methamphetamine precursor has been increasingly replaced with the far more accessible ephedrine/pseudoephedrine.

And you figure a byproduct of the use of phenylacetone is the causal factor in users preferring illicit methamphetamine over pharmaceutical dextro-methamphetamine? Verrrry interesting... I wonder what possible mechanism this could come about by. I'm not that informed on the nuances of methamphetamine synthesis - part of me wonders if the reaction would have to be performed incorrectly/indiscriminately for this phenylacetone to impact the final product since, ideally, when you buy 'meth' its 'meth,' or 'meth + cut' (realistically) but not with residual substances left over post-synthesis.

That's a pretty keen piece of detective work there, negrogesic, especially if it's true (that it's responsible for the preference)

~ vaya

 

[DoctorChemX]

Wow man, you live in America right? Here in Australia i am totally
unaware of methamphetamine being used clinically or therapeutically
for ADD/ADHD, although i am pretty sure it is legally allowed to be as
it's placed in schedule 8 (the same as dexamphetamine) but it's not manufactured
or imported legally for that purpose here, as far as i am aware. I Could be wrong.

I Know that dexamphetamine, however, is of course, so widespread here in Australia
that almost everyone knows someone who has or is on it, like myself, i find it a wonder
drug, infact it's almost like a miracle drug, it makes life seem so beautiful, like waking up
in the morning and feeling totally alive and happy, such an uplifting spirit, it's really like
a spirit drug, a euphoriant, but what is really so good about it is how it makes me focus,
when i wasn't on it, i was a nobody, when i am on it, i am a useful productive member of
society, and this stands for everyone with ADD/ADHD who uses it, so i truly hope the authorities
never ban the use of amphetamine/methamphetamine for ADD/ADHD sufferers, as it's wonder drug
for those who don't abuse it, it helps us become normal members of society, like everybody else.

 

[THC2LSD]

Actually now their cracking down on (pseudo)ephedrine, it is straight up banned in mexico, super labs in mexico are going back to the P2P METHod. They've had multi-ton seizures of ethyl phenylacetate(News reports initially said ethyl phenylacetate is used for coke production too. Maybe as a replacement for ether/ethyl acetate? I doubt that). I don't think it's dl-meth, they're finding tartaric acid used to resolve it to d-meth.Too bad, I heard dl-meth is better than d-meth alone. I'd rather have dl-meth than 50%d-meth rest MSM/isopropylbenzylamine.Wonder what they do with the l-meth?

On one hand this is good because P2P doesn't produce aziridines, but I think they use mercury to make it. Sure hope they clean it up before selling it.

Has dl-meth ever been used in medicine in the US?

 

[nuke]

In rat studies, I recall METH is twice as potent and about 10 times as toxic as amphetamine.

 

[SNR]

In rat studies, I recall METH is twice as potent and about 10 times as toxic as amphetamine.

Basically saying that it would be clinically safer to double the dose of AMPH then use METH? Sounds logical to me.

 

[Vaya]

In rat studies, I recall METH is twice as potent and about 10 times as toxic as amphetamine.

Wow, that is incredible. Does it seem to make a difference (in terms of how exponentially more potent and neurotoxic than amphetamine) whether the METH use is dl-meth or d-meth?
d-meth has been everything, experientially, I could have asked for in an ADD medication, and in my life it is reserved for therapeutic use and taken at therapeutic dosages as I believe methamphetamine too dangerous for recreation. However, after the veritable wealth of studies I've read and information taken from respected members of BL, ADD Forums and other sources, I'm beginning to reconsider.

~ vaya

 

[Dysphoric]

In rat studies, I recall METH is twice as potent and about 10 times as toxic as amphetamine.

This is going to need sources... That doesn't even make sense. It's only twice as potent, yet 10fold more toxic? That sounds like BS. Like SNR said, you're basically saying I should just double my dose of D-Amp instead of taking D-Meth?

 

[LSDMDMA&AMP]

And you figure a byproduct of the use of phenylacetone is the causal factor in users preferring illicit methamphetamine over pharmaceutical dextro-methamphetamine? Verrrry interesting... I wonder what possible mechanism this could come about by. I'm not that informed on the nuances of methamphetamine synthesis - part of me wonders if the reaction would have to be performed incorrectly/indiscriminately for this phenylacetone to impact the final product since, ideally, when you buy 'meth' its 'meth,' or 'meth + cut' (realistically) but not with residual substances left over post-synthesis.

That's a pretty keen piece of detective work there, negrogesic, especially if it's true (that it's responsible for the preference)

~ vaya

vaya when phenylacetone/P2P is used you get racemic methamphetamine.
pseudo/ephedrine gets you just d-meth
hence the preference, maybe.

 

[Steps]

This is going to need sources... That doesn't even make sense. It's only twice as potent, yet 10fold more toxic? That sounds like BS. Like SNR said, you're basically saying I should just double my dose of D-Amp instead of taking D-Meth?

They're equipotent in dopamine release
D-Methamp is 2.4x more potent at serotonin release
D-Amp is 1.7x more potent at norepinephrine release

ALL amphetamines are neurotoxic

From what I've seen... meth neurotoxicity is always well, there, at virtually any dosage...
d-amp neurotoxicity is insignificant until doses over 40mg IR are taken, then Dopamine release reaches its ceiling and NE and SERT are the only things increased, neurotoxicity then hits a certain "threshold" where it now it basically makes a difference

EDIT: 2x more potent... the fk... they could be referring to the LD50 maybe? Amphetamine is like 98.6mg/kg meth is 43.2mg/kg

 

[Amu]

This is going to need sources... That doesn't even make sense. It's only twice as potent, yet 10fold more toxic? That sounds like BS. Like SNR said, you're basically saying I should just double my dose of D-Amp instead of taking D-Meth?

Actually it could make sense, and the studies do have merit. d-meth releases five times the dopamine that d-amp does. nuke didn't make any suggestions on what to do for your personal stimulant use.

They're equipotent in dopamine release
D-Methamp is 2.4x more potent at serotonin release
D-Amp is 1.7x more potent at norepinephrine release

ALL amphetamines are neurotoxic

From what I've seen... meth neurotoxicity is always well, there, at virtually any dosage...
d-amp neurotoxicity is insignificant until doses over 40mg IR are taken, then Dopamine release reaches its ceiling and NE and SERT are the only things increased, neurotoxicity then hits a certain "threshold" where it now it basically makes a difference

EDIT: 2x more potent... the fk... they could be referring to the LD50 maybe? Amphetamine is like 98.6mg/kg meth is 43.2mg/kg

No d-meth is NOT equipotent at dopamine release as d-amp, identical EC50 values are not the whole story and are dose-dependent, conformational changes to the DAT and NET matter a lot, as does the ability of d-meth to cross into dopamine terminals in the PFC, and it's ability to more easily cross the neuronal membrane directly. Secondly, d-meth neurotoxicity is not present at "all doses" since it is mostly mediated by free radicals which do not have any damage below a certain threshold dose determined by the individual's supply of endogenous anti-oxidants at the time and whole host of other factors.

 

[negrogesic]

I assume that some people are referring to the following table. A simple evaluation of these numbers cannot be used to assess potential neurotoxicity (or toxicity as a whole for that matter - ex., norfenfluramine).

 

[Vaya]

^^^ I remember this chart from another post a while back. But I'm having problems understanding what the values mean, as I do not have a comprehensive biochemistry background (it's mostly a hobby for me). I don't mean to de-rail this thread, just trying to digest the values above conceptually rather than statically.
If I recall correctly, 'nM' refers to nanomolarity (concentration, essentially). Methamphetamine occupies the highest potency for dopamine release at a concentration of 24.5 nM; this makes sense, since the lowest EC50 value represents the highest agonist potency (lowest concentration produces 50% maximal effect), which would be METH according to the chart. But Ki.... I've never quite understood dissociation constants (I usually see this abbreviated as 'Kd' though) and what their implications are (re: the numbers charted above under Ki values, maybe we can use the example of DA U; Ki (nM) = 34 for amphetamine, as opposed to, say, Fluoxetine's DA U; Ki value of >5000). Do these numbers indicate that the presence of amphetamine produces a stronger chemical bond between the ligand and its receptor than does Fluoxetine? Anecdotally, this would be obvious to me. Dexedrine obviously stimulates the reward pathway more readily than Prozac. But why does amphetamine in particular cause greater intermolecular force between ligand and receptor than another compound, such as fluoxetine, does?
School me, BL....

~ vaya

edit: also, might Ki be referring to "rate of inactivation" (could be the same thing as "dissociation constant" from the sound of it), in which case, the lowest Ki value (lowest rate of inactivation) would thus leave the brain with the highest supply of DA, NE or SE, all else constant? That I could understand... Under the Pharmacodynamics section of Wikipedia's entry for Dextromethorphan, the author states "Low Ki values mean strong binding or high affinity; high Ki values mean weak binding to the target or low affinity." The simplest way I can phrase this 2nd question is, "Why does low Ki=strong binding?" thanks

 

[DoctorChemX]

Actually now their cracking down on (pseudo)ephedrine, it is straight up banned in mexico, super labs in mexico are going back to the P2P METHod. They've had multi-ton seizures of ethyl phenylacetate(News reports initially said ethyl phenylacetate is used for coke production too. Maybe as a replacement for ether/ethyl acetate? I doubt that). I don't think it's dl-meth, they're finding tartaric acid used to resolve it to d-meth.Too bad, I heard dl-meth is better than d-meth alone. I'd rather have dl-meth than 50%d-meth rest MSM/isopropylbenzylamine.Wonder what they do with the l-meth?

On one hand this is good because P2P doesn't produce aziridines, but I think they use mercury to make it. Sure hope they clean it up before selling it.

Has dl-meth ever been used in medicine in the US?

[edit: we do not allow synthesis discussion on there] I Am an expert on amphetamine chemistry, oneday i'll make a post explaining how P2P chemistry works here. [edit: Please don't]

DrX