Are mushrooms the forbidden fruit??

[rolling_anon]

God does not exist...

Therefore mushrooms cannot be forbidden.

 

[swilow]

I mean historical evidence ranging from the word of mouth of secret societies, cave art, spiritual documents such as the Rig Veda and other sanskrit texts, the Bible, and many other spiritual documents, not to mention the long-standing history of shamanic use of psychedelics from Siberia to the Amazon.

If psychedelics were integral to things like the Eleusinian Mysteries, or the soma of the Rig Veda or passages of the Bible, I don't see why this would be so mysterious. The knowledge of this wouldn't be one fraught with doubt. Consider the Bible, in which there are passges which dictate what and how people should eat; there are huge lists of geneology; there are laws for the treatment of homosexuals, witches, heretics; and all of these are really obvious and relatively simple to interpret, and yet there are no obvious references to psychedelics. That doesn't make sense; if psychedelics were the cornerstone of these beliefs, why is there no direct reference to them in the Bible?

But yeah, I'd say that some of the early French cave-paintings are inspired by altered states of consciousness, but its really impossible to know.

I don't think anybody is specifically trying to link abrahamic religions with psychedelics as oppose to other organized belief systems. It's just that there are these anomalies in these stories, and some people are pondering over where the basis of those stories would have come from. We could be talking about any of the religions and spiritual histories.

But thats what this whole thread is about. If the forbidden fruit was psychedelic mushrooms, that is incredibly important. That story essentially demonstrates the rise (or fall) of humankind into knowledge of good and evil. Its an essential part of christian cosmology, as it explains why humans are seperate from god. It also explains where god is, and the rest of the bible is basically a story of how to get back to this place.

Sorry, this is a crock of shit. 8( You often drop in to the "bad trip" threads to say that bad trips don't exist, yet here you are now saying that high-dose mushrooms will send most people who take them in to insanity. Obviously both viewpoints are absurd.

I'm going to distance myself from Ismenes jihad here .

Psychoactive substances were the staple of the mystery schools of the levant. These ancient practices of divination using psychedelics go way back before the Roman era. Tripping was one of their main ways of seeking universal "knowledge" (as it were).

I would say that psychedelics have played a role in some aspects of ancient religion, but I don't think they play an overwhelmingly important one. Here in Australia, we had the longest running human civilisation (until a bit over 200 years ago) that being indigenous aboriginal peoples. They have a long running tradition of shamanic practises, drum, dancing, shapeshifting, fasting, but they don't appear to have used psychedelics. We have strong psilocybin mushrooms here, wattle trees containing DMT and other related alkaloids, tropane containing plants, amanita's etc. Yet the only psychoactive that was used by indigenous aussies is a nicotine containing plant. This suggests to me that spirituality is not dependant on psychedelics at all.

Ah, this thread reminds me of the Bluelight of old, when the boards were full of provocative threads like this. These days it's all RC this, RC that...

Aye, its good isn't it? Healthy debate keeps the mind sharp...

 

[nAON]

God does not exist...

Therefore mushrooms cannot be forbidden.

beat me to it :D

it's an arbitrary plant that just so happens to produce a chemical that just so happens to antagonize the right receptors which act on the mind. statistically, it was pretty inevitable.

and the feeling of a greater power, of destiny, is one that can apparently be recreated quite easily by chemical means (as well as through stimulation of the brain in other ways). using a drug to feel 'at one with the world' or whatever is just as hedonistic as using a drug like an opiate that just makes you feel good.

 

[Shroomanator]

On the sixth day god made mushrooms <----fact

Yes you're are correct!!! At least that's what my bible says.

 

[Ismene]

What does the crucifiction of Jesus have to do with your ridiculous claim that people 2000 years ago would have been burned at the stake for taking mushrooms?

Because you claimed cruel punishments only happened in the "dark ages".

There's far more to it than what you saw on the history channel or were taught in sunday school.

Right. Abrahamic religions didn't have cruel punishments 2000 years ago then. My bad.

According to your logic, nobody would have gotten away with tripping and then sharing their insights during the pre-christian era, for fear of reprisal.

Claiming you could talk to God on a mushroom wouldn't have upset fundamentalist christians and Islamists 2000 years ago?

But then when you present such blatantly reductionist scenarios

Someone saying they see God on a mushroom is "blatantly reductionist"? How on earth would they have communicated what they experienced on mushrooms if they didn't tell the christians then? How did the christians get to write it in a book if no-one told them?

I'm not assuming anything

Yes you are, you've just made the outlandish claim that the "bible" and the "rig veda" and "cave art" and god knows what else "proves" people were tripping. It proves absolutely nothing of the sort.

If you're too bone-headed to do the research and find these things out for yourself, that's your lookout.

I've already done the research, and it appears I've done an awful lot more than you. Is that why you're getting so defensive and personal?

I'm guessing that "cave art" you were claiming as "proof" was that drawing by Mckennas wife wasn't it. Yeah, that fooled me for a while too mate.

 

[Ismene]

I would say that psychedelics have played a role in some aspects of ancient religion

Even, dare I say it...ABRAHAMIC?!!

 

[swilow]

Even, dare I say it...ABRAHAMIC?!!

Probably not, but I think that ancient shamanic rituals might have used psychedelics, as may some early believers in beliefs such as Hinduism and (maybe).

But I'd say the most ancient religion would be a sort of nature worship found amongst many indigenous tribal groups such as native Americans, indigenous Australians, Maori, native Papua New Guineans, groups discovered in South America, maybe even old Druid cults in Britain. It wouldn't surpise me if psychedelics or intoxicants of some sort had something to do with the practise of these beliefs...Obviously, its impossible to truly know, but I'd like to think so.

I'm confused as to why people really want psychedelics to have some ancient, historical use in society. It doesn't change the way the world is fucked up today...

 

[Thorns Have Roses]

Its a cliche to be anti-religion, but I think the world will be a whole better when all this segregation and dogma fades away, as it should and will.

Indeed, my problem here is the singling out of religion when the problem really seems to be in-group/out-group thinking. Plenty of people have died for causes that could be quite secular, democracy, socialism, nationalism, blah blah blah. Dogmatism sucks but I don't think these problemems are avoidable given humanity present form. Either evolution will have to deselect the aggressive, competitive, and other features from the species, or genetic manipulation/cybernetic implants will have to be enforced to forcefully be rid of them at some point in the future.

Maybe we should just go for a hive mind...

Claiming you could talk to God on a mushroom wouldn't have upset fundamentalist christians and Islamists 2000 years ago?

Um, neither of those religions had really been invented yet 2000 years ago. Christianity as a religion separate from Judaism wasn't established till well after the death of Christ, and Muhammed wasn't born until 570 A.D.

 

[Ismene]

Probably not, but I think that ancient shamanic rituals might have used psychedelics, as may some early believers in beliefs such as Hinduism and (maybe).

Maybe, but I think it's pretty unlikely. I think you'd get pretty much the same situation then as you do now - the vast majority of the population think it's "taking drugs" and "going insane" and a small minority - but a lot smaller than now - would get something out of it.

But I'd say the most ancient religion would be a sort of nature worship

Combined with sacrificial worship - cutting childrens/virgins throats so the Gods look kindly on them.

I'm confused as to why people really want psychedelics to have some ancient, historical use in society

I think they find it romantic and it makes them feel connected to some kind of "movement". It's difficult and frightening for some people to stand alone.

But I think the fact that we're probably the first people in history who have ever had a full understanding and knowledge of psychedelics unencumbered by religious bullshit make it a magical time to be taking psychedelics.

 

[Ismene]

Um, neither of those religions had really been invented yet 2000 years ago. Christianity as a religion separate from Judaism wasn't established till well after the death of Christ, and Muhammed wasn't born until 570 A.D.

Well, whichever religious group was in power in society - it doesn't really make any difference which. You're not saying the preists around at the time of Jesus were lovely blokes who would sit and trip with you?

You go to ANY priest of most religions over the last 2000 years and claim you can talk to God through a mushroom and you are going to get killed. They don't build temples and advertise themselves as knowing the word of a god so some silly bastard can blaspheme by claiming "No, all you have to do to know god is eat a mushroom".

 

[nopipesdfw]

If anything, maybe Abrahamic religions and co. pulled their own stories out of thin air but copied the properties described by those of the time who ate naturally occurring psychedelics or dissociatives. They then probably took these people who were possessed by the devil to a pit of fire where they burned them alive.

Just my guess lololol.

 

[swilow]

Combined with sacrificial worship - cutting childrens/virgins throats so the Gods look kindly on them.

Pretty narrow-minded there.

 

[Ismene]

Pretty narrow-minded there.

In what sense?

 

[MrKitty2]

Isnt it also possible that the mushrooms evolved and since, the toxins they produce induce a state that more than just humans endure when eaten, my dog snatched some up when I left the room one time, and he runs away from them now, and you could tell he was tripping, poor guy :/ . The mushroom contains just a poison, without the ability of a brain like ours to process the experience, it would probably just scare the shit out of nearly anything that eats it. just my 2 cents

 

[swilow]

^I'm not sure what you mean, but psilocybin isn't really a poison.

In what sense?

Well, the entire statement was:

But I'd say the most ancient religion would be a sort of nature worship
Combined with sacrificial worship - cutting childrens/virgins throats so the Gods look kindly on them

Its just narrowminded to equate "nature worship" with the human sacrifice that has appeared in religious rituals for thousands of years. I mean, sure, its a terrible and bizarre practise but not all that widespread, and certainly not widespread and persistent enough to be a defining trait of all nature based religion. I'm sure you are aware that 'pagan' belief systems involved a lot more then stereotypical human sacrifice. The apparent cruelty of the Aztecs doesn't mean all tribal groups are as destructive.

I agree with you that humans tend to romanticise the past, but I don't think that means that the past or ancient times is therefore primitive, undignified or cruel. Its just different.

 

[Mercc96]

Honestly I believe that much religious text is based around human's early experiences with hallucinogens,or Entheogens as they are also known - as I'm sure you know meaning the God inside us or creating the divine inside the individual. Now recently I have come to believe that many aspects of Religions are connected. That the saying made in Gods image is totally connected to entheogens, we are the physical representation of the God ( in the sense that we understand it to be) that is inside us , also known as the soul. Rastafari use the term "I and I "referring to the oneness of Jah (God) and every human . This concept of oneness, the oneness of two persons- the internal spiritual God and its physical representation . So God is within all of us and we're all one people in fact. Hinduism generally regards its 330 million (maybe more? closer to 6 billion possibly) as deities as extensions of one ultimate reality,and for one God ( that is within each and every one of us) .'One might ask what about this internal God does it recede within the wicked? and this is were I believe karma comes into play ( mind you I am not extremely factually accurate on all religions so much of my real information comes from internet sources, but the ideas come from my gut) Hindus believe that the soul reincarnates, evolving through many births until all karmas have been resolved, and moksha, liberation from the cycle of rebirth, is attained, in my eyes this is related to the Christian belief in asking God for forgiveness and repenting for their sins and that ultimately God does indeed recede in all of us. Not a single soul will be deprived of this destiny (much like one cannot create nor destroy energy). Also look at the colours used in the roman catholic church - whites , reds and gold ( colours of the amanita) and as with many religions the head figure of the RC wears a hat adorned in Gold, silver , diamonds etc - to me representing the mystical enlightenment that the original creators of said religion experienced. There are members of every religion that use substances that lead to mystical/spiritual experiences so as mentioned before particular attention should be paid to the important of the human mind, as ultimately it is the meeting between said substance and the brain/mind that brings the diving upon ones being.

I personally use our creator rather than God , as I believe that each and everyone of us is in fact God . I do not believe in the currently believed story of Genesis ( Fall of Adam) because text is often altered and changed as it passes generations and its not like the Bible is some how magically protected agains't being tampered with, perhaps in fact our creator intially wanted us to eat the fruit that he had provided and the text was changed by those who wanted to use religion as a means to control people ( much like media misnformation today is designed to scare people) so altered the story to include Eves temptation as to firstly ward humans from experiencing the divine within them by eating the fruit that our creator provided them , and to use Eve's giving in to the Devil/snake to create an infinite prejudice against women so that men and women were no longer equal ( as our creator had intended them to be) as to have power over them for wicked reasons- to me the snake may represent a penis - often a symbol of power or possibly a symbolising their desire to exhibit control over women or eve, as in her giving into the wickeds power) The phrase "Lie back and think of England" comes to mind. The banishing of Adam and Eve from the Garden of Eden to me represents our distance from the real meaning of religion or spirtuality and not through our creators anger or betrayal, as our creator is Omnibenevolent and so can only harbour love and understanding. Maybe Eden recides within the brain or our mind and is visitable briefly by plants and substances that our creator left upon Earth to give us a small glimpse at what possibly awaits us?

Who knows, nothing in this universe can really be proven or disproven, there is no truth. Many of my friends say I've gone mad.

 

[huolesoh]

mushrooms on the muslim island of bali, i wanted to put it somewhere on the forum /// http://www.vice.com/read/magic-mushroom-milkshakes

 

[Ismene]

Its just narrowminded to equate "nature worship" with the human sacrifice that has appeared in religious rituals for thousands of years.

I didn't explain myself correctly - I was just saying that I think sacrificial worship was a very common part of religion in primitive times, perhaps not as common as nature worship but if you look at a lot of the primitive peoples around today from the aztecs to New Guinea, sacrifice is a common feature of their religions.

 

[Efoj]

Quite an interesting discussion. I'll add my two cents.

I believe the forbidden fruit to be a legend concerning consumption of a mushroom or cannabis or anything else, but certainly something that gave people deep insight. Some rulers or even the majority of Jewish society were against these insights and what they contained of potential subversive ideas, so they prohibited the fruit, and as the centuries went by, the legend changed to what it is now.


Also, there is absolutely no reference pre-Renaissance that the fruit might have been an apple, it's not written in any old texts or anything, apples were only favoured by Renaissance painters and from then, they got the fame.

What I believe is that, unlike African or pre-Colombian American or Vedic or Greek religions, Abrahamic religions were built upon a founding myth that emphasises the prohibition of altered states of conscience, and this explains a lot of things, from monotheist societies' long story of prohibition of homossexuality, masturbation and other victimless crimes, to the big advances of science and engineery in Western Society (according to Baudelaire: a man who can with a spoonful procure for himself all the treasures of heaven and of earth will never gain the thousandth part of them by working for them)

 

[Roger&Me]

Well they obviously can't be the forbidden fruit, because they aren't even in the plant kingdom... they're fungi! ()