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Questions about Nicotine

Dysphoric

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Feb 3, 2010
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At low doses, nicotine potently enhances the actions of norepinephrine and dopamine in the brain, causing a drug effect typical of those of psychostimulants. At higher doses, nicotine enhances the effect of serotonin and opiate activity, producing a calming, pain-killing effect.

How does this work, is this really true? So if I take very short drags and separate the drags out more, I will get more of a Dopamine-like stimulant effect? And Vice Versa? How exactly does this work?

Another question I have is what exactly does Nicotine do in the CNS (Effects on Dopamine/serotonin, is it a re-uptake inhibitor, a Releasing Agent, Agonist, what)? I can't for the life of me seem to find in-depth information concerning this, all I can find is very general and obvious information.

Last but not least, is it neurotoxic on DA? Or does it down-regulate Dopamine, I would assume it does, but to what extent? I ask this because I used to take Desoxyn (Prescribed) and I would say I kept a pretty low "tolerance" to Meth/Amphetamines, but once I picked up smoking (mainly when I made it a habit) it seemed my tolerance to Amphetamines skyrocketed. Does it have some sort of cross-tolerance. Or is it just a coincidence?
 
Where is that quote from first, a website or someone here? Does it have references?

Found this "Beta-endorphin is measured by plasma levels, and when in plasma it has a hard time crossing the BBB. So I'm not sure if it could have a large opiate effect. Nicotine also increases cyp3a4, which will decrease the levels of other opiates faster"
 
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First off, be sure to understand that there is a huge difference between nicotine alone and smoking tobacco. There are over 1000 chemicals produced when smoking tobacco so theoretically any or all of these could have psychoactive effects. The main thing to keep in mind is that smoked tobacco contains MAOIs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MAOIs

Second, nicotine is a nAChR agonist. Nicotine binds to acetylcholine receptors (of the nicotinic type) because it is shaped somewhat like acetylcholine. However because it is not acetylcholine its shape allows it only to bind to the nAChR receptor type (as opposed to the other type of acetylcholine receptor mAChR; of which acetylcholine also binds but nicotine can not). These receptors are located on a variety of neurons that release various things including hormones, neurotransmitters, and others.

There are some neurons that when acetylcholine binds to, release dopamine. It should be noted that just some of the neurons that nicotine binds to release dopamine. I'm not sure, but I believe more adrenaline and noradrenaline are released compared to dopamine.

Third, dopamine is "inactivated" by enzymes called MAO. MAOIs in smoke inhibit these MAOs causing more dopamine, noradrenaline, adrenaline, serotonin, and other neurotransmitters/hormones to activate receptors.

Fourth, any excess receptor activation usually causes downregulation. So regardless of nicotine-only substances or smoking, receptors will downregulate; though smoking will downregulate them faster.

Finally, nicotinic receptors are sensitive, moreso than most all other receptors. Essentially, nicotine hits them "harder" then the natural acetylcholine and after a certain amount of getting hit hard, they die (sometimes called inactivated). If one starts a cigarette they feel stimulated. That's the beginning of unnatural release of neurotransmitters (well conditioning is also involved in this release, but I'll leave that out). Slowly the user gains more of a release of receptor activation (usually reported as euphoria).
As you have been taught, this is oversimplified to dopamine activation. However like I stated before, there are nicotinic receptors on all types of neurons so the answer is not nearly that simple.
So the user gets towards the end of a cigarette. At this point a lot of nAChRs have been deactivated (killed). However the combination of MAOIs keep receptor activation going for dopamine, serotonin, noradrenaline, and epinephrine. So you still feel good. Slowly, the constant unnatural activation causes these receptors to downregulate. Particularly dopamine, noradrenaline, and epinephrine. So now there are less of these receptors to be activated. At the same time MAOI levels are diminishing leading to less levels of catecholamines (dopamine, noradrenaline, and adrenaline).

The combination of nicotinic receptor inactivation, receptor downregulation, and low levels of neurotransmitters is responsible for both the sedative effects of nicotine and part of the withdrawal symptoms. The difference between the sedative and withdrawal symptoms is only one of degree.

As you can see, the are many factors involved. One that I didn't mention was the fact that there are nAChRs on GABA receptors. These release more GABA. In relation to nicotine's effects on opioids, I've read that nicotine increases opioid concentrations in some parts of the brain while decreasing it in others. What is known is that nicotine sensitizes the reward system of the brain, fucks with your natural brain system, and has a high probability of causing cancer.

Regarding the amps, I've had the exact same thing happen. Just stay away form the cigarettes unless you plan on smoking at least a pack a day. I believe it to be rapid downregulation of catcholamine receptors from the combination of releasing from the amps and MAO inhibition from the MAOIs.

When you get down to it you're mixing poison with speed, what'd you expect?
 
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Nicotine acts on the nicotinic acetylcholine receptors, specifically the ganglion type nicotinic receptor and one CNS nicotinic receptor. The former is present in the adrenal medulla and elsewhere, while the latter is present in the central nervous system (CNS). In small concentrations, nicotine increases the activity of these receptors. Nicotine also has effects on a variety of other neurotransmitters through less direct mechanisms.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicotine#Pharmacodynamics
 
First off, be sure to understand that there is a huge difference between nicotine alone and smoking tobacco. There are over 1000 chemicals produced when smoking tobacco so theoretically any or all of these could have psychoactive effects. The main thing to keep in mind is that smoked tobacco contains MAOIs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MAOIs

I already know this....


Regarding the amps, I've had the exact same thing happen. Just stay away form the cigarettes unless you plan on smoking at least a pack a day. I believe it to be rapid downregulation of catcholamine receptors from the combination of releasing from the amps and MAO inhibition from the MAOIs.

I only smoke 3 cigarettes a day... And I haven't taken Desoxyn in about 8months. I want to quit so I can start taking Desoxyn again and actually feel it a LOT more.

I honestly don't feel you answered one of my questions still. Is it an Agonist, Releasing Agent, Re-uptake inhibitor, etc... On DA?

Thanks for the reply though.
 
I only smoked 1-5 cigarettes when I was on Vyvanse.

Your ? makes no $. "Is it an Agonist, Releasing Agent, Re-uptake inhibitor, etc... On DA?"

DA means dopamine. Is nicotine an agonist on dopamine? No, as dopamine is a molecule and nicotine is a molecule.
Is nicotine an agonist on dopamine receptors? No as it binds to acetylcholine receptors.
Does nicotine release dopamine? Yes. Is nicotine a releasing agent? No.
Does nicotine cause the inhibition of DAT? No, so it isn't a reuptake inhibitor.
Does nicotine bind to dopamine receptors? No, so it isn't a dopamine agonist.

It is neither an agonist, RA, or RI. So I explained what it is.

"How does this work, is this really true? So if I take very short drags and separate the drags out more, I will get more of a Dopamine-like stimulant effect? And Vice Versa? How exactly does this work?"

I explained this. It depends on your brain. There is no clear answer. It's kind of irrevelent, as cigarettes enhance adrenaline way more than dopamine. I don't blame you though, most information available tends to focus on nicotine's effect on dopamine, even though it's effects on other neurotransmitters are far greater.

A simple answer would be that nicotine kills some acetylcholine receptors hence making you more sedated.

Nicotine will only release dopamine on neurons that have nAChRs postsynaptically.
RAs like speed release catcholemines (dopamine) indistigushably (unnaturally).
RIs like cocaine and methylphendiate prevent the breakdown of catcholemines already released naturally.
Dopamine agonists like apomorphine bind to dopamine receptors directly and indistingishably.

Nicotine is a nAChR agonist.
There happens to be some nAChRs that control dopamine release. I'm sure you've heard a lot of information that link dopamine and cigarette smoking together. That is a lazy, oversimplification of the whole picture that allows science to
1) potentiate the idea that dopamine controls pleasure and 2)simplify the question of why cigarettes "make people feel good".

Since you take methamphetamine, your dopamine, noradrenaline, and adrenaline receptors are downregulating. Smoking will accelerate this process solely from the MAOIs in the smoke. Nicotine should accelerate this downregulation even more as it causes the release of catecholmines.

Any ?s?
 
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Nicotinic acetylcholine receptors work as modulators in some parts of the brain for what we know.
Some receptors have what's called a 'cascade effect', in other word their stimulation affects the activity of other closeby receptors eg: the 5-HT2a receptor (target of all psychedelics) affects GABA, glutamate, AMPA, 5-HT1 and other receptor activities throughout the brain.
Also smoking generally, like food and sex increase dopamine release in many areas of the brain in response to a 'pleasure feedback mechanism' of which I don't know to much in detail but it has been used to explain why excessive longterm pleasure reinforcing habbits, like the ones i stated above, tend to cause dependency and discontinuation cravings due to receptor downregulation.
 
discontinuation cravings due to receptor downregulation.

I don't know if I'm reading this right, but quitting causes receptor down-regulation? Or are you saying that receptor down-regulation from use causes you to crave it?
 
The latter obviously. I think you know well that the body and mind constantly tries to adapt or adjust to stimuli. A prolonged overstimlation causes downregulation (sometimes though some antagonists downregulate rather than upregultaing) and thus tollerance.
Craving as we all know is a feeling of discomfort due to lack of certain stimuli, the lowered sensitivity to endogenous ligands caused by receptor downregulation increases the discomfort and thus cravings.
The ammount of factors and chain effects that need to be considered when trying to figure the exact effects of a drug is sometimes mindnumbing. I bet a grand there's still a fourth of mechanism behind smoking that we still have to discover.
On Wikipedia, which should not be considered as an ultimate source of information, I found this:
628px-NicotineDopaminergic_WP1602.png


To answer part of the OP, I think there is SOME even if small correlation between smoking and amphetamine tollerance. The MAOI effects of smoking should initially increase the high and duration by keeping the monoamines high though this should reinforce the downregulation response.
How much did you smoke and what is you're (meth)amphetamine use?
Do you practice any sports or exercises?
 
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How does this work, is this really true? So if I take very short drags and separate the drags out more, I will get more of a Dopamine-like stimulant effect? And Vice Versa? How exactly does this work?
Its a agonist at nicotinic acetylcholine receptors (NAChR), which are ion channels. Specific subunits of these ligand gated ion channels in the brain are associated with increased release of dopamine through complex downstream pathways when nicotine binds to them. NAChR are involved in the sympathetic and parasympathetic nervous system as well as the CNS and exert different effects depending on where they are located and their subunit composition.

Another question I have is what exactly does Nicotine do in the CNS (Effects on Dopamine/serotonin, is it a re-uptake inhibitor, a Releasing Agent, Agonist, what)? I can't for the life of me seem to find in-depth information concerning this, all I can find is very general and obvious information.
Its on wikipedia man, drugs can have more complex mechanisms of action than DRA/DRA *casts a terrified glance over at my term paper on modafinil*
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicotine#Pharmacodynamics

Last but not least, is it neurotoxic on DA? Or does it down-regulate Dopamine, I would assume it does, but to what extent? I ask this because I used to take Desoxyn (Prescribed) and I would say I kept a pretty low "tolerance" to Meth/Amphetamines, but once I picked up smoking (mainly when I made it a habit) it seemed my tolerance to Amphetamines skyrocketed. Does it have some sort of cross-tolerance. Or is it just a coincidence?
MAOI+amphetamine= more chance of building tolerance due to more happy juice floating around. There's also the whole NAChR-epigenetic link but that is assfuckingly complex even at the Ph.D level, but suffice to say smoking is bad for you and your tolerance. It might be toxic to DAgenic neurons through something else in what you're smoking but I really don't see that as being too severe unless you're over a pack a day.

Nicotine has weird effects on receptor numbers, you'll have increased NAChR numbers but with decreased sensitivity. So when you quit you aren't getting the level of stimulation you were used to hence withdrawal.

But yeah, I think we've tried to answer this question enough.
Dysphoric please post questions like this in the stickied question thread at the top of the ADD forum. Its a decent question but it doesn't deserve its own thread since you want answers, not discussion.
 
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How much did you smoke and what is you're (meth)amphetamine use?
Do you practice any sports or exercises?

I only smoke 3 cigs a day. I don't take Desoxyn anymore, at least for now. I've been off of it for about 8-9 months now. Also something I should mention is I never took my meds everyday to prevent tolerance, which actually worked very,very well, but as soon as I started smoking more I noticed the tolerance rising quickly. I've always smoked 1-3 cigs while on Amps due to it making the Euphoria much more pronounced, but after about a year I started smoking even when I was sober, that's when I noticed this huge tolerance/desensitization to Amphetamines.

I haven't been all the active physically, but I just picked up (About a month ago) jogging for about 15 minutes almost daily, not much I know, but better than nothing. I used to do MMA back 2 years ago, I actually used to be very fit, but then I traded smoking/being lazy in general over being fit :|

Why?
 
It might be toxic to DAgenic neurons through something else in what you're smoking but I really don't see that as being too severe unless you're over a pack a day.

Smoking is actually linked to a lower risk of parkinsons bc of the MAOI effects. Something about decreased MPP+ like molecules formed from MAO. Nicotine also has free radical scavenging effects in the brain at doses typically used by smokers.

http://www.springerlink.com/content/e873l63445526616/
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14697903

Nicotine increases nAChR numbers with use. Opposite of most other drugs. Also take note that while methamphetamine desensitizes the reward system, nicotine sensitizes it.

It sensitizes D1 receptors in the reward system but it desensitizes the D2 receptor. D2 is linked to euphoria and sociability in the rewars system.
 
Smoking is actually linked to a lower risk of parkinsons bc of the MAOI effects. Something about decreased MPP+ like molecules formed from MAO. Nicotine also has free radical scavenging effects in the brain at doses typically used by smokers.

http://www.springerlink.com/content/e873l63445526616/
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14697903



It sensitizes D1 receptors in the reward system but it desensitizes the D2 receptor. D2 is linked to euphoria and sociability in the rewars system.

I'm referring to the cadmium, lead, and various other toxic constituents which only become a problem with heavy use and low quality tobacco. Good ref's though man
 
Thanks, I wouldn't count on it being great for PD either. You can never tell whats in the cigs. They could be drastically different between brands. I quit smoking bc of the terrible health effects it can cause. I wonder if heavy metal buildup can harm your DA neurons after you quit.

Edit:Here's a couple studies on D2 receptors downregulation from nicotine:http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18316420, http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15008806

Usually nicotine's effects on the reward system gets interpreted as good bc of that one D1 upregulation study but it's effects in that system really aren't that good.
 
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