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MDMA and Vitamin C
- Thread starter Sexkitten
- Start date
matt2012
Bluelighter
people have said that vit C increases the effects of MDMA but its not true....it has no effect on the intensity of the experience. It is thought that the anti-oxident effects of vit C can help to protect your brain from the neurotoxic effects of MDMA.
Last edited:
gnarleyonaharley
Bluelighter
- Joined
- Dec 21, 2010
- Messages
- 152
its actually good to take before, during, and after a roll bc when u are rolling your immune system is weakened and theoretically vitamin c boosts the immune system. definitely doesnt weaken or strengthen the roll tho. also it is thought to have protective effects on the brain when studied in rats at high doses.
Fyasko.
Bluelighter
the only way its really gonna effect your roll to the point where you can feel it is it might dampen the roll at little if the vitamin C you're using is Ascorbic Acid. this is because amphetamines are better absorbed in an alkaline-environment in your stomach, and Ascorbic Acid makes your stomach more acidic. i really doubt it'd be noticable though 
I think any effect in rats will have been enormous doses injected directly in the brain - certainly far, far beyond a dose anyone could take orally.
It won't have any effect whatsoever other than placebo - if you believe it's "protecting" you then you'll feel better about yourself. It won't actually offer any protection whatsoever.
SuperPump250
Bluelighter
I've noticed in the past that while I am coming down, if I drink an OJ, I start to roll a little bit again.
Black Octagon MK 2
Bluelighter
Do (Google) searches on "post-roll ecstasy vitamin C" and "pre-roll ecstasy vitamin C"
I'd do some reading up on the whole theory of "free-radicals" and "anti-oxidants". Particularly an article in the Bad Science series by Ben Goldacre. It looks as if the whole theory was a load of bollocks made up by the supplement industry. Anti-oxidants offer absolutely fuck-all protection from anything.
Your body will handle all this by itself with no problem whatsoever. The money you spend on "anti-oxidants" is just making your urine ten times more expensive and ensuring the cheif executive of the vitamin company can drive a new porsche.
Your body will handle all this by itself with no problem whatsoever. The money you spend on "anti-oxidants" is just making your urine ten times more expensive and ensuring the cheif executive of the vitamin company can drive a new porsche.
Andronicus
Bluelighter
- Joined
- Jul 28, 2011
- Messages
- 228
The evidence that Vit C helps prevent colds is very poor yet alone preventing flu! So I suspect the OP is wasting money on that anyway: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin_C_and_the_common_cold
I agree with Goldacre that these ideas of antioxidants being "good for you" in general are massively simplified, overblown, often based on in vitro research only and are quite probably simply untrue. There are studies showing negative effects for taking anti-oxidant supplements too. E.g. people taking vitamin E had a higher incidence of lung cancer than those not taking it. High doses of antioxidants have shown the potential to lower the positive effects of exercise (http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn17108-vitamin-supplements-may-cut-benefits-of-exercise.html) and to suppress the immune system.
However given we don't really know what MDMA is doing in the brain in minute detail but we do suspect that oxidation effects may be responsible for some of the bad things it can do, then it MIGHT be worthwhile taking antioxidants, like Vit C, whilst rolling. We might benefit but we might not. Given the cheap price of Vit C and the terrible price of brain damage, it seems like a cheap bet to make....as long as it doesn't turn out in 10 years that it makes it worse of course.
As a general rule I think taking any pills on a daily basis is usually a bad idea unless you really have to. You're altering something that wasn't designed to be altered. The body is probably making changes to compensate. The whole thing is ludicrously complex and full of feedback loops and nobody really knows what is going on. But on the internet people read one article showing a possible advantage to one aspect of a chemical and believe that it is all good and has no bad. Like piracetam: yes it looks pretty harmless but nobody can really know all and every effect it has on someone taking it for years. Might be great. Might turn out to be bad.
I agree with Goldacre that these ideas of antioxidants being "good for you" in general are massively simplified, overblown, often based on in vitro research only and are quite probably simply untrue. There are studies showing negative effects for taking anti-oxidant supplements too. E.g. people taking vitamin E had a higher incidence of lung cancer than those not taking it. High doses of antioxidants have shown the potential to lower the positive effects of exercise (http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn17108-vitamin-supplements-may-cut-benefits-of-exercise.html) and to suppress the immune system.
However given we don't really know what MDMA is doing in the brain in minute detail but we do suspect that oxidation effects may be responsible for some of the bad things it can do, then it MIGHT be worthwhile taking antioxidants, like Vit C, whilst rolling. We might benefit but we might not. Given the cheap price of Vit C and the terrible price of brain damage, it seems like a cheap bet to make....as long as it doesn't turn out in 10 years that it makes it worse of course.
As a general rule I think taking any pills on a daily basis is usually a bad idea unless you really have to. You're altering something that wasn't designed to be altered. The body is probably making changes to compensate. The whole thing is ludicrously complex and full of feedback loops and nobody really knows what is going on. But on the internet people read one article showing a possible advantage to one aspect of a chemical and believe that it is all good and has no bad. Like piracetam: yes it looks pretty harmless but nobody can really know all and every effect it has on someone taking it for years. Might be great. Might turn out to be bad.
First Bad Comedown
Bluelighter
- Joined
- Nov 26, 2010
- Messages
- 562
I agree and disagree with you.
Decent article, esp. for those working out.
And the concluding remark is on point - no pills can substitute for eating fruits and vegetables.
Vit C may turn out to be an outstanding supplement, but proof does not exist.
With so many other areas of science, lack of proof is assumed to be lack of potential.
Perhaps there is simply an incomplete understanding of its benefits.
I have a close family member in healthcare, and he takes LOADS of VIT C every time he gets sick - which is often, since he works in the ER.
He swears by it, and I have also tried it.
While it does not produce marked improvement, I cannot deny that it just makes me feel a little better.
And its effect seems to be amplified with higher doses.
I read LONG ago that Vit C does protect from MDMA neurotoxicity.
It was one of the first studies I came across.
But this required HUGE intravenous doses in the rodents being studied.
I determined that for any substantial benefit in humans, it would necessary to take 3 grams before, during, and after the roll.
That is 9 grams in a day.
You should expect to piss frequently.
And yes, acid content in the stomach destroys a portion of MDMA as well as most medications.
But after the first hour of the roll, the vast majority of MDMA has been absorbed from the intestinal wall.
Taking Vit C may actually encourage movement in the GI, causing an increased absorption below the stomach.
So timing is important - and how many people will remember to take it at one hour post dose?
I have read many reports of people being unable to eat ANYTHING but fruit while having a psychedelic experience.
One person described citrus as an unbelievably amazing experience on acid.
It makes sense that it might improve the roll mildly, simply by moving the GI where most serotonin is kept.
Orange juice has a lot of sugar in it, which increases serotonin in the brain.
I recommend a LOW carb diet prior to rolling, however.
High dose Vit C has cured lymphoma, a type of cancer that is more responsive to treatment.
But again - we are talking MASSIVE intravenous doses.
I have always been sensitive to Vit C.
Throughout my life it would cause nausea, without fail.
After my 'brain damage' from MDMA, I was shocked to learn that Vit C no longer produced this effect in me.
In fact, I would take several grams per day - and STILL no nausea.
I did not believe that it could FIX what happened, but I thought it wise to offer the brain lots of anti-oxidants every day.
And even with high doses every day for months, I cant say it produced noticeable results.
But I can say it didn't hurt.
I literally took GRAMS of fish oil and Vit C every day.
And no matter WHAT I took or ate, or didn't eat...
Nausea no longer existed for me.
It was a visceral sensation that the brain could no longer produce.
Its like a symphony of nerves are required to cause the feeling...
For the record - the greatest herbs in the entire world, are turmeric and milk thistle.
Milk thistle has been shown to heal damaged liver cells, and cause them to work more efficiently prior to healing.
It can be used in mushroom poisoning, or to stop a bad mushroom trip.
Turmeric is a powerful anti-inflammatory, both in the intestines and the brain.
Its use is suspected to contribute to LOW levels of cancer and Alzheimer's in China and India.
Taken with black pepper, it has drastically increased bio-availability.
I take turmeric extract, which is much more potent.
I also used these for months during the early stages of recovery.
And turmeric has ALWAYS made me feel better.
I cannot recommend it enough.
Pre and post roll.
Decent article, esp. for those working out.
And the concluding remark is on point - no pills can substitute for eating fruits and vegetables.
Vit C may turn out to be an outstanding supplement, but proof does not exist.
With so many other areas of science, lack of proof is assumed to be lack of potential.
Perhaps there is simply an incomplete understanding of its benefits.
I have a close family member in healthcare, and he takes LOADS of VIT C every time he gets sick - which is often, since he works in the ER.
He swears by it, and I have also tried it.
While it does not produce marked improvement, I cannot deny that it just makes me feel a little better.
And its effect seems to be amplified with higher doses.
I read LONG ago that Vit C does protect from MDMA neurotoxicity.
It was one of the first studies I came across.
But this required HUGE intravenous doses in the rodents being studied.
I determined that for any substantial benefit in humans, it would necessary to take 3 grams before, during, and after the roll.
That is 9 grams in a day.
You should expect to piss frequently.
And yes, acid content in the stomach destroys a portion of MDMA as well as most medications.
But after the first hour of the roll, the vast majority of MDMA has been absorbed from the intestinal wall.
Taking Vit C may actually encourage movement in the GI, causing an increased absorption below the stomach.
So timing is important - and how many people will remember to take it at one hour post dose?
I have read many reports of people being unable to eat ANYTHING but fruit while having a psychedelic experience.
One person described citrus as an unbelievably amazing experience on acid.
It makes sense that it might improve the roll mildly, simply by moving the GI where most serotonin is kept.
Orange juice has a lot of sugar in it, which increases serotonin in the brain.
I recommend a LOW carb diet prior to rolling, however.
High dose Vit C has cured lymphoma, a type of cancer that is more responsive to treatment.
But again - we are talking MASSIVE intravenous doses.
I have always been sensitive to Vit C.
Throughout my life it would cause nausea, without fail.
After my 'brain damage' from MDMA, I was shocked to learn that Vit C no longer produced this effect in me.
In fact, I would take several grams per day - and STILL no nausea.
I did not believe that it could FIX what happened, but I thought it wise to offer the brain lots of anti-oxidants every day.
And even with high doses every day for months, I cant say it produced noticeable results.
But I can say it didn't hurt.
I literally took GRAMS of fish oil and Vit C every day.
And no matter WHAT I took or ate, or didn't eat...
Nausea no longer existed for me.
It was a visceral sensation that the brain could no longer produce.
Its like a symphony of nerves are required to cause the feeling...
For the record - the greatest herbs in the entire world, are turmeric and milk thistle.
Milk thistle has been shown to heal damaged liver cells, and cause them to work more efficiently prior to healing.
It can be used in mushroom poisoning, or to stop a bad mushroom trip.
Turmeric is a powerful anti-inflammatory, both in the intestines and the brain.
Its use is suspected to contribute to LOW levels of cancer and Alzheimer's in China and India.
Taken with black pepper, it has drastically increased bio-availability.
I take turmeric extract, which is much more potent.
I also used these for months during the early stages of recovery.
And turmeric has ALWAYS made me feel better.
I cannot recommend it enough.
Pre and post roll.
Andronicus
Bluelighter
- Joined
- Jul 28, 2011
- Messages
- 228
Vitamin C has been very widely studied and if it really was the wonder drug some people make it out be then I suspect we'd know about it by now. It does appear to be worth taking once you have a cold as it can lessen the duration in some people.
The evidence base on Vit C preventing colds goes beyond lack of evidence. Test after test and the subsequent reviews show that it does not prevent colds. If it did, it would have shown up on these tests. I think we can safely say it doesn't prevent colds nor flu.
The situation with antioxidants is far more complicated. The reasons to believe that taking lots of antioxidants daily is good for you are not strongly backed up with evidence but mostly based on snippets of research and relatively isolated application of physiology. Lots of things sound good in theory but don't work in practice. In the body this is even more the case because we cannot model the body properly, not by a long way. So we cannot reliably predict the effects of chemicals based on our knowledge of biology. Nor are in vitro or animal studies reliable predictors. In fact even human trials are not terribly reliable either but obviously are the best we can do. So without proper trials we just don't know what effects these things really have especially in the long term. This is why decent doctors and medical scientists do not recommend things without sufficient evidence and change their views when that evidence changes. That is why medical representative groups like BMA or AMA don't recommend widespread daily supplementation. Alt heath practitioners don't tend to take such a responsible attitude and jump on isolated papers to further their cause. This article is illuminating: http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/index.php/antioxidant-hype-and-reality/
Lack of evidence doesn't necessarily prove something has no value but it does prove we don't know that it does and it does indicate that it might even be harmful.
Tumeric is interesting. It does have anti-inflammatory properties. I took it for a while for my back problems. It didn't noticeably help as it happens but I thought it worth a try given the problems I had. Whether it contributes to low cancer or Alzheimers is just speculation. People also credit this to green tea, low meat diets, lack of dairy products and a host of other dietary and environmental differences. Most of the studies showing possible positive effects end with the line "worthy of further investigation" I.e. they are preliminary and the majority of preliminary research is later shown to be wrong (http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/are-most-medical-studies-wrong/). It looks promising but we don't know the full story yet. I think the thing to remember is that if it does work then it's a drug. And all drugs have side effects and so should only be taken to treat a specific condition. We don't know all the side effects of curcumin yet but we do know some of them. A quote here from McCormick Science Institute:
"Curcumin may accelerate reactive oxygen species formation and damage lung tissue of smokers and ex-smokers. Other toxic and carcinogenic properties of curcumin have been described.(31) The mechanisms underlying curcumin’s anticancer actions include inhibiting carcinogen metabolism; suppressing tumor invasion and metastasis; disrupting regulation of transcription factors, growth factors, protein kinases, or mTOR; and modulating levels of inflammatory cytokines that control cell proliferation, angiogenesis, and apoptosis.(4,5,29,30,40-43) In this regard, 2 reports of in vitro studies indicate that curcumin may induce degradation of the tumor suppressor protein p53 and inhibit its activity,(44,45) results that raise concerns about safety"
These negatives are also preliminary and may turn out to be nothing, just like the positives. If you look at the McCormick overview you'll see that they put P for Preliminary against every section. I.e. we don't know for sure right now. Hopefully at some point we will and it will be good news. Until then I wouldn't recommend taking large amounts on a daily basis just in case that tumor suppressing protein turns out to be important.
Of course individuals are free to attempt to weigh up evidence with regards to their own welfare and do what they like.
The Neurologica blog I linked to above is superb. It's written by the Director of General Neurology at Yale University School of Medicine who also has an interest in rational thinking. Here is another article which talks about complexity of biological systems and is quite pertinent to the above: http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/calcium-and-the-law-of-unintended-consequences/ - something as apparently harmless as calcium supplementation has some quite shocking downsides.
The evidence base on Vit C preventing colds goes beyond lack of evidence. Test after test and the subsequent reviews show that it does not prevent colds. If it did, it would have shown up on these tests. I think we can safely say it doesn't prevent colds nor flu.
The situation with antioxidants is far more complicated. The reasons to believe that taking lots of antioxidants daily is good for you are not strongly backed up with evidence but mostly based on snippets of research and relatively isolated application of physiology. Lots of things sound good in theory but don't work in practice. In the body this is even more the case because we cannot model the body properly, not by a long way. So we cannot reliably predict the effects of chemicals based on our knowledge of biology. Nor are in vitro or animal studies reliable predictors. In fact even human trials are not terribly reliable either but obviously are the best we can do. So without proper trials we just don't know what effects these things really have especially in the long term. This is why decent doctors and medical scientists do not recommend things without sufficient evidence and change their views when that evidence changes. That is why medical representative groups like BMA or AMA don't recommend widespread daily supplementation. Alt heath practitioners don't tend to take such a responsible attitude and jump on isolated papers to further their cause. This article is illuminating: http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/index.php/antioxidant-hype-and-reality/
Lack of evidence doesn't necessarily prove something has no value but it does prove we don't know that it does and it does indicate that it might even be harmful.
Tumeric is interesting. It does have anti-inflammatory properties. I took it for a while for my back problems. It didn't noticeably help as it happens but I thought it worth a try given the problems I had. Whether it contributes to low cancer or Alzheimers is just speculation. People also credit this to green tea, low meat diets, lack of dairy products and a host of other dietary and environmental differences. Most of the studies showing possible positive effects end with the line "worthy of further investigation" I.e. they are preliminary and the majority of preliminary research is later shown to be wrong (http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/are-most-medical-studies-wrong/). It looks promising but we don't know the full story yet. I think the thing to remember is that if it does work then it's a drug. And all drugs have side effects and so should only be taken to treat a specific condition. We don't know all the side effects of curcumin yet but we do know some of them. A quote here from McCormick Science Institute:
"Curcumin may accelerate reactive oxygen species formation and damage lung tissue of smokers and ex-smokers. Other toxic and carcinogenic properties of curcumin have been described.(31) The mechanisms underlying curcumin’s anticancer actions include inhibiting carcinogen metabolism; suppressing tumor invasion and metastasis; disrupting regulation of transcription factors, growth factors, protein kinases, or mTOR; and modulating levels of inflammatory cytokines that control cell proliferation, angiogenesis, and apoptosis.(4,5,29,30,40-43) In this regard, 2 reports of in vitro studies indicate that curcumin may induce degradation of the tumor suppressor protein p53 and inhibit its activity,(44,45) results that raise concerns about safety"
These negatives are also preliminary and may turn out to be nothing, just like the positives. If you look at the McCormick overview you'll see that they put P for Preliminary against every section. I.e. we don't know for sure right now. Hopefully at some point we will and it will be good news. Until then I wouldn't recommend taking large amounts on a daily basis just in case that tumor suppressing protein turns out to be important.
Of course individuals are free to attempt to weigh up evidence with regards to their own welfare and do what they like.
The Neurologica blog I linked to above is superb. It's written by the Director of General Neurology at Yale University School of Medicine who also has an interest in rational thinking. Here is another article which talks about complexity of biological systems and is quite pertinent to the above: http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/calcium-and-the-law-of-unintended-consequences/ - something as apparently harmless as calcium supplementation has some quite shocking downsides.
Last edited:
First Bad Comedown
Bluelighter
- Joined
- Nov 26, 2010
- Messages
- 562
I have to compliment you on this post.
Not bad at all.
I agree - Vit C's benefits have been vastly overstated in regards to illness prevention.
And the term 'anti-oxidant' illustrates how a simple concept is over-applied to biology.
I think it is more important to research the effects of Vit C on long-term health.
And plain ascorbic acid is only one component of citrus fruit...
There is no substitute for healthy diet.
I am no big fan of alternative medicine - esp. when claims are pushed beyond evidence.
But I do believe that some natural compounds are poorly understood by the medical community.
This may be due to lack of financial interest, or perhaps the sheer complexity of natural compounds.
The number of molecules and the wide-spread effects on the brain are VERY difficult to study.
St. John's Wort is a great example.
Turmeric is unlikely to impact bodily pain.
I exercise on a regular basis and it does nothing noticeable for muscle soreness.
Bromelain does, but I don't use it often as inflammation in the muscles is necessary.
It is best used for quick recovery during sports.
Inflammation is likely necessary in the 're-wiring' process of the brain.
I do not take high doses of turmeric for this reason.
I have read accounts of taking too much, and it doesn't sound fun.
With all supplements dosage is important.
But I do find some relief even with small doses.
And it may help preserve gene expression - evidence in epigenetics is interesting.
I imagine that people suffering from migraines would find turmeric to be very useful.
Inflammation is linked to both positive and negative biological processes.
I agree, trying to influence something this complicated may have surprising results.
Inflammation is widely viewed as an underlying cause of age-related illness.
This is not just among alternative practitioners, either.
Counteracting inflammation throughout life is likely very important.
Healthy diet with high quality carbs seems to be VERY important, as does exercise.
And anti-oxidants may play a role in life-long inflammatory control...
But it does appear that eating fruits and vegetables on a regular basis provides better protection than supplementation.
This is not surprising, since this alters the entire diet throughout life.
And this is the method of turmeric use - moderate regular intake.
Plain turmeric found in curry has rather low bio-availability.
It is the regular use throughout life that probably lends the greatest effect.
Again, dosage is important with ALL meds/drugs/supps.
I should mention to all readers that BRUSHING TEETH is very important.
Brushing a least TWICE a day is linked to a significant drop in heart-disease risk, even among people with unhealthy diet.
This is because the body treats plaque in the mouth like an infection, and the inflammation that results has an impact on all of your blood vessels. And perhaps the brain...
In the early stages of my recovery, I found that brushing and flossing made a modest, but noticeable contribution.
Less 'head pressure'.
Thanks for the information, by the way.
I will read the blog.
I must say, you put more effort into your posts than others.
Just taking the time to write paragraphs seems beyond most of the younger BLers.
I actually agree with much of what you have said on this thread.
I think we can get along just fine.
But don't be surprised if I still want an aggressive debate soon.
Until then...
Not bad at all.
I agree - Vit C's benefits have been vastly overstated in regards to illness prevention.
And the term 'anti-oxidant' illustrates how a simple concept is over-applied to biology.
I think it is more important to research the effects of Vit C on long-term health.
And plain ascorbic acid is only one component of citrus fruit...
There is no substitute for healthy diet.
I am no big fan of alternative medicine - esp. when claims are pushed beyond evidence.
But I do believe that some natural compounds are poorly understood by the medical community.
This may be due to lack of financial interest, or perhaps the sheer complexity of natural compounds.
The number of molecules and the wide-spread effects on the brain are VERY difficult to study.
St. John's Wort is a great example.
Turmeric is unlikely to impact bodily pain.
I exercise on a regular basis and it does nothing noticeable for muscle soreness.
Bromelain does, but I don't use it often as inflammation in the muscles is necessary.
It is best used for quick recovery during sports.
Inflammation is likely necessary in the 're-wiring' process of the brain.
I do not take high doses of turmeric for this reason.
I have read accounts of taking too much, and it doesn't sound fun.
With all supplements dosage is important.
But I do find some relief even with small doses.
And it may help preserve gene expression - evidence in epigenetics is interesting.
I imagine that people suffering from migraines would find turmeric to be very useful.
Inflammation is linked to both positive and negative biological processes.
I agree, trying to influence something this complicated may have surprising results.
Inflammation is widely viewed as an underlying cause of age-related illness.
This is not just among alternative practitioners, either.
Counteracting inflammation throughout life is likely very important.
Healthy diet with high quality carbs seems to be VERY important, as does exercise.
And anti-oxidants may play a role in life-long inflammatory control...
But it does appear that eating fruits and vegetables on a regular basis provides better protection than supplementation.
This is not surprising, since this alters the entire diet throughout life.
And this is the method of turmeric use - moderate regular intake.
Plain turmeric found in curry has rather low bio-availability.
It is the regular use throughout life that probably lends the greatest effect.
Again, dosage is important with ALL meds/drugs/supps.
I should mention to all readers that BRUSHING TEETH is very important.
Brushing a least TWICE a day is linked to a significant drop in heart-disease risk, even among people with unhealthy diet.
This is because the body treats plaque in the mouth like an infection, and the inflammation that results has an impact on all of your blood vessels. And perhaps the brain...
In the early stages of my recovery, I found that brushing and flossing made a modest, but noticeable contribution.
Less 'head pressure'.
Thanks for the information, by the way.
I will read the blog.
I must say, you put more effort into your posts than others.
Just taking the time to write paragraphs seems beyond most of the younger BLers.
I actually agree with much of what you have said on this thread.
I think we can get along just fine.
But don't be surprised if I still want an aggressive debate soon.
Until then...
Last edited: