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Im back..a little update..for the people who care.

Splinters Thoughts, With MasterSplinter

thizzin' since 98 said:
I guess I am depressed as well, but its not a sad, crying, down kind of depressed, its a very blank, almost extreme "bored" feeling.

Just a few days ago, I was listening to music and I suddenly just had to turn it off, it became very annoying and sounded like noise. I went up stairs, turned on my xbox, played for a little bit, but I just felt like a robot.

I then sat on my bed, just feeling completely zoned out, empty, emotionless. So strange. This feeling continued on for days, before slowly fading into something more tolerable.
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Honestly bro you're not as bad off as you think...I know your depressed a bit, but Im thinking its probably because you aint getting out enough and getting physical activity. You need to start excerscing moar and find a goal to focus on.

The moar you concentrate on how hollow and emotionless your life has got the moar it will become reality. You need to find ways to change your pattern of thinking if you want to feel better. Your in a bit of a negative spiral.

Exercise is a crucial key. It makes you stronger.
 
Agreed with bsiren. Something more suited to a blog, but the discussion that has happened in response has justified this staying open. First bad comedown +1 for your post, excellent.
 
Agreed with bsiren. Something more suited to a blog, but the discussion that has happened in response has justified this staying open. First bad comedown +1 for your post, excellent.

Consider nootropics, many of them are great for getting your brain to function better. You will have more energy and a clearer head that will hopefully help you get yourself into a better headspace.

Never underestimate your minds ability to manifest the thoughts and ideas you fixate on into your everyday life. This world can be as wonderful or filled with shit as we make it for ourselves. fixating on how depressed you are doesn't help how depressed you feel. It all just spirals, and while we tend to pay more attention to the downward spirals, good situations and a positive outlook will help you feel better. Situations tend to suck as much or more than you expected if you expect it to suck before you even get there. we are a very resilient species, the fundamental idea of "hope" will help you get out of the slump You find yourself in.
 
Eat healthy and get regular exercise..

Maybe see a therapist?

Try these things before starting SSRI's..
 
Was curious about you. SSRIs are a terrible idea, as that's more messing with brain chemistry and neurotransmitter release and reuptake

The interesting thing is how pipes did this, and not MDMA, so most of the MDMA recovery process is going to be pointless.

You're also in a stage of your life where hormones are out of whack, your brain isn't fully developed (usually in males it's still developing until 21-23)

Could be hormonal. That's why teens loved emo music in my day lol

I think finding a purpose and boosting your self confidence might help. I'd say therapy, working out, and creating a multiple year plan for yourself is good. Give yourself some direction in life, you can always change it as you go, but it helps to start defining yourself and your role in society.

Also to start experimenting w different career and life choices can help you find a purpose!

Unfortunately your age is a commonly depressing/lost feeling time. It's the point where you're expected to slowly take responsibility for your own creation and life, usually when u have no idea as to what u want to do (or without a firm grasp on "who you are")

We all struggle thru this time period. It makes you stronger
 
I've actually cried a few times reading through all these posts. Your support is overwhelming. So much to take in.

Could I ask someone to post detailed information on BZP?

I've seen a website here and there, but they honestly offer me miniscule details, I still don't feel satisfied. I want to know all I can about pipes. Could someone post a detailed breakdown for me?

It seems like a very underground, unreasearched, newer drug, still new to popular recreational use, am I right?

I know if I talk to a doctor about BZP, they will be clueless.
 
Thizzin -
Crying is good.
Do more of it.
It lowers cortisol.

So is anger.
It increases dopamine.
Wake the beast within you - hit something, break something. SCREAM.

I understand why you want to research piperazines until the cows come home.
Others would tell you that you are only making it worse. I say - go ahead. Read away.
You will find that there are SO many piperazines and so LITTLE research on them that advanced understanding is simply beyond us at this point.

Even MDMA research is a vast and nebulous field.
Decades of research has answered some important questions - but MANY more questions remain.
Try to understand that this is because serotonin is the most intricate and complex of our neurotransmitter systems.
It has a greater density and wider impact upon brain function than all the others.

But its primary function is to contract smooth muscles throughout the body - the greatest example being the intestines.
The brain literally evolved around the gut, my friend.
And your GUT is in control.

This has been my theory all along - the intestines are 're-wiring' the brain.
That is why this is such a relentless process.
The brain itself is not in the driver's seat.

But it sure is a capable passenger.

Did you know that with MANY types of brain injury things normally get much WORSE before they get better?
Despair and anger are actually quite common among brain injury survivors.
Think of them as tools for the brain to remould itself.
That is why I recommend anger/rage so much to my fellow sufferers.
Other than exercise, hitting my punching bag violently has been the greatest single cause of progress this last year.

I would not listen to the guy recommending SSRIs.
He disclosed no information about how long he has used them or what dose he has escalated to.
He also failed to mention ANY negative side-effects.
For the record, I agree that they help to re-build a 'foundation' for emotions.
They literally force serotonin into higher cortical regions!
The effectiveness of them is so great that SSRIs have made Billions of dollars for pharmaceutical companies.
But there is a very dark side to them.
Darker than what you are currently living through.

Besides, plenty of people with serotonin injury from MDMA do NOT respond well to these miracle drugs.
And despite the lack of 'pipe' research, you can draw conclusions about recovery from MDMA research!

I was always shocked that SSRI users that experience really bad withdrawal suffer VERY similar symptoms to MDMA users with 'bad comedowns'. The symptom overlap is shocking.
Lack of sexual function is common, as is full on anhedonia.
The sense of 'novelty' is robbed - nothing in life is interesting anymore.
Looking other people in the eye can be very awkward - but not as bad as looking in your own in a mirror!
Things slowly get better, then they get WORSE.
An unending cycle of suffering and emptiness...

But somehow the majority of SSRI users that I have listened to - easily 50 or more - tend to recover in the SAME timeline that MDMA users do. One to TWO years.
Yes, there are exceptions...but until the 5 year mark there still appears to be a trend of recovery.
There are even rare stories of recovery past ten years of anhedonia.
That should mean something positive to you.

Regardless of the exact pharmacokinetics of the 'pipe' that you took, it is probably a serotonin releaser.
This means that is reverses the function of the SERT, just like MDMA.

Even if it doesn't - anything that increases serotonin (including SSRIs which inhibit uptake) can damage the SERT.
The transporter function is largely seen as a reliable indicator of the function of serotonin axons in the area.
It is well-known that anything that causes excess serotonin can damage SERT expression - another way of saying "it damages axons in the area".

Since MDMA is a potent neurotoxin and causes long-term/permanent damage to the SERT....it can be used as a guideline for recovery from other causes of serotonin toxicity. In fact, piperazines are used to test serotonin function in former MDMA users!

There is a definite overlap my friend.
You should be OK within a few more months.
WORST case scenario is two years. Got it?

Even heavy long-term users of other drugs tend to follow this schedule.
Yes, some of them take more than five years...but many recover within two.
This says something fundamental about the process of brain recovery, in my opinion.

For the record, I disagree with Somedud.
He is my buddy, but I obviously stated that ANYTHING that increases serotonin at the SERT can damage it.
Pipes should be ASSUMED to be toxic.

And your statement that Dp/Dr is not caused by brain damage is also questionable.
I am GLAD that you are finding relief with counseling - even if it means being told something that isn't correct.
Yes, people have experienced depersonalization from WEED.
Should we assume that 'brain damage' hasn't occurred?

Frankly, I assume that it DOES.

But before we even get into this argument, how do we define 'brain damage'?
What a blunt, and useless term.

They don't call a broken arm 'arm damage'!
They say the patient has a 'fracture of the ulna'.
Medicine aims to describe and differentiate illness/damage.

And THIS is where medicine falls short with the brain.
Our nervous systems are so incredibly complex that it could indeed be assumed that Dp/Dr is ALWAYS a form of 'damage'.
Cannabis...or even traumatic events can cause this out-of-body experience.
And it can persist for years!

How is this not 'damage' to the brain?
Or circuits within it?

Hell, what is depression?
Hmm...
I think we need a few more CENTURIES of research.

Yes, Dp/Dr is probably brain 'damage'.
But it is not 'diffuse axonal shearing' - one of the common ways to describe traditional 'brain damage'.
'Serotonergic injury' is another option.
I prefer the more neutral approach - 'reorganization'.

The important thing to note is that most people with Dp/Dr do, in fact, recover.
Regardless of what type of 'damage', 'injury', or 'reorganization' that is occurring - the medical literature suggests a pattern of 'RECOVERY'.

Besides - Dp/Dr is only a PART of the whole process.
I could go on and on about all the symptoms I have had since my Dp/Dr mostly disappeared.
Yeah, I could say there is still a 5 percent remainder to this day...esp. on bad days.
But it bothers me NOT.

And I must say, Somedud, you sound like it doesn't bother YOU anymore.
Good fucking job, my friend.

Thizzin - look at him.
Do you detect the nanchalance in his post?
The sureness?

Holy fucking shit.

THAT gives me more hope than MOST of the research I have read!
I still remember when he was more hopeless than you.
Now, after a year and a half, (and without SSRIs) he is still sounding SURE of himself.

Good fucking job, Somedud.
I'm proud of you.

You keep believing whatever it is that is making you feel so in control.
Just avoid proclaiming the safety of 'pipes'. Deal?

Thanks Jamaica, by the way.
I imagine you are glad I'm no longer a daily angry poster.
Yes, nootropics are the best bet for treating this issue without inducing further damage.
But I warn others - Piracetam is NOT a cure.
It is AMAZING for its ability to stimulate the brain and restore 'HPA' function - but the benefits are not lasting when the medication is withdrawn.

Nonetheless it is the BEST alternative to anti-depressants.
It has no affinity for serotonin or dopamine receptors - so it will not cause damage to the SERT like SSRIs can.
But it still manages to increase serotonin and dopamine preferentially in the PFC!
This is probably happening through NMDA (glutamate) receptors.
It is an awesome choice for those who cannot go on any longer.

And don't fear selegeline because your dad took adderall, which is a MUCH stronger amphetamine.
For God's sake, I did my research too.
Stimulants are dangerous in the long-term, but this one is a lot more subtle.
Try the Piracetam first, and you will probably forget about it anyways.

And stop thinking that your posts are annoying.
Even the mods around here find this stuff helpful in terms of harm reduction.
Other users need to see how 'long-term' the consequences really are.
Report back to us every month or so.
I'm always interested in other people's recovery stories.

You are going to make it.
Accept the emptiness as much as you can.
It is supposed to SUCK.
One day it won't.

Not a day of suffering is wasted, Thizzin.
Every single day counts.
 
thenugg said:
try some E or low dose of shrooms to stop the anxiety. make sure your addrenal glands are rested or u risk getting anxious. should work.
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You're joking....right?

I sometimes feel like the OP...but not as bad, when my mind is a mess I usually throw on my iPod and walk for hours...once I was enjoying my walking and music I walked 14 miles....it was awesome.
 
First Bad Comedown said:
But before we even get into this argument, how do we define 'brain damage'?
What a blunt, and useless term.

They don't call a broken arm 'arm damage'!
They say the patient has a 'fracture of the ulna'.
Medicine aims to describe and differentiate illness/damage.
Click to expand...

I think this is an excellent point. I've always thought of brain damage as being physical damage to the structure of the brain, but with the brain being so complex, it's hard to define what brain damage is. One could certainly argue that depression and anxiety ARE brain damage, while many individuals experiencing these things may not have any actual neurological changes causing them. On the flip side, it certainly seems possible that things like PTSD could RESULT in changes in the brain, rather than being caused by them. An excellent post FBC, the change in your tone makes a huge difference, and continues to improve as your recovery goes on, as you said of somedud:)
 
I would say that MDMA abuse causes more psychological harm than literal damage to the brain, but since serotonin controls the blood flow in your brain (right FBC?) among other things, and people who have minimal amounts of it will often have pockets of reduced blood flow in certain areas, that could definitely lead to some problems
 
Folley said:
I would say that MDMA abuse causes more psychological harm than literal damage to the brain, but since serotonin controls the blood flow in your brain (right FBC?) among other things, and people who have minimal amounts of it will often have pockets of reduced blood flow in certain areas, that could definitely lead to some problems
Click to expand...

Serotonin is responsible for the regulation of everything from your body temp to digestion to ecstasy or misery, memory, learning, breathing, blood flow and addiction to name a few off the top of my head.
A much more organized and full list is available through wikipedia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5-HT_receptor
 
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@ first bad comedown, you're right about the hpa axis dysfunction. I have read a lot of stuff.... I haven't posted on this site for quite sometime, but I thought I'd just add some input on my experience.

I started feeling this stuff the night after I drank a lot... it wasn't even ecsatsy or anything "hard".
Man that first year was so bad, I had no idea what was going on and thought it was in my brain or whatever, like something was damaged, I thought i had a brain disorder, honestly I was so hopeless... And I only did more drugs and drank more to try and just feel normal. I felt like shit all the time, I was planning my suicide for a while. It's so nice to just see that I'm not the only one experiencing this. I mean at the same time it's so sad that anyone would have to go through this....

The emptiness and feeling of nothingness is so incredibly horrible.... If someone described this to me before, I would have been confused, and even then I would have thought, hmm no feelings of fun, doesn't sound THAT bad. Who would have thought life could be so bad. Before my "saddest" day was when my mom said I couldn't go to a friends house and I was crying the whole day, I was probably in 4th grade I think.
Honestly nothing really got me down before, I was never a sad person, even when people would die, I don't know, it's just like regardless of what would be going on, nothing made me feel empty, or really that sad. Things were fine, life was good. Okay I wasn't like super happy about my life, but life was just "normal", and oh what I would give to just have that back.

It's crazy how one night or experience in life could change so much...
It's been coming up to be three years now... damn, how bad life has been. I can't believe it's going to be three years still stuck in this funk.
ANyways for the first year I really was just confused about everything, I started researching a ton though... and learned about different stuff. I started eating right... cut out simple carbs and excess fats, AND GLUTEN. Wow cutting out gluten really did help a lot, and eating a balanced diet. I started feeling better from all that, I didn't feel like an absolute zombie anymore. nonetheless still feeling shitty/ empty.

Anyways I've tried other things and have learned a lot still even more. I have been changed so much as a person through all this... I've become a much better person, and see how beautiful life really was... but I can't express it, or embrace it and be me. I'm sure you guys know what I mean...

I know that if things ever get better, I'd be the happiest person ever. I say if because, it just seems like it would be too good to be true, it doesn't seem like it could actually be something real... just living and being healthy and normal again. Seems like a fairytale, only something that would happen in a dream.

Anyways back to like actually things that might help and research stuff.
This stuff called MMS or miracle mineral solution has also helped. It detoxifies your body. If you look it up this stuff really is pretty amazing, it's really cheap too I bought some on ebay for like 15 bucks. Also a very important thing is to eliminate all forms of stress, anything that makes you feel excited, scared, gets your heart pumping, even eating bad is also stressful on your body, any drugs at all, making sure you eat properly at the right times too, and making sure you sleep enough. It really does help. And I know it may seem so daunting to do all these things especially when life is already so hard.... but you will try them if life really is bad enough.
Also, what I've seen many people feel better is using low dose cortisol. Brand name cortef

And people might think there's something wrong with your brain.. but that's not the case, it's more like your body is stuck in a state of confusion. If you really want to get better you will take this seriously, and look into it.
It's an hpa axis dysfunction. It doesn't matter what the stressor.. be it whatever drug or experience, the result is the same. This can happen when the body is put under an abnormally large amount of stress at one point in time.
The hypothalamic, pituitary, adrenal (HPA) axis constitutes one of the body's major control systems, serving to maintain body homeostasis with hormone feedback regulatory loops. If the HPA axis is driven very far from its natural homeostatic rest point, it may be unable to fully recover the healthy physiologic state. Under such conditions, the HPA axis dysfunction may become chronic. HPA axis dysfunction has been characterized in disorders including Chronic Fatigue Syndrome (CFS), depression.

But I did find something that looks promising,
A research team, consisting of Drs. Amos Ben-Zvi, Suzanne D. Vernon, and Gordon Broderick, used a relatively simple mathematical description of the HPA axis to show how the complex dynamical behavior of this system could accommodate multiple stable resting states; some corresponding to chronic loss of function characterized by low cortisol, a hormone that modulates immune function. A robust treatment strategy was designed to take advantage of the body's existing homeostatic mechanism, using a short-duration intervention to assist the HPA axis in re-asserting homeostasis about a healthy equilibrium. Akin to pulling back a slingshot, temporarily reducing the bioavailability of cortisol pharmacologically causes the HPA axis to overcompensate and launch itself back into a correct regulatory regime.

So a drug that reduces cortisol temporarily may help... mefipristone or it looks like cushings syndrome drugs

The researchers propose a theoretical, single intervention therapeutic model that is counter-intuitive and challenges the conventional time-invariant approach to many therapies. Validation of this model will require clinical collaboration.

Anyways this is just my experience.. and thoughts, maybe they might help someone. Hope things get better for all that are going through this, you are not alone though, and there is someone who can relate, even when every person in your life doesn't, and doctors and people think you are just crazy, it's so sad...
I know what that's like, and it makes you just feel that much more empty, knowing that no one understands. I don't really go on this site ever but if you want to talk or something you can add me on skype: ecztazy.

PS: OP thizzin, I care, and I care about everyone that has to go through this, thanks for making this thread
 
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