Codeine and CWE Megathread - The long awaited!

[Subtext]

Is there any point trying a CWE when on daily suboxone? I'm on 2.4mg. If so how much?

 

[JoshE]

^ Pretty sure the sub will block the effects of the Codeine man. IIRC, It can also cause respiratory depression, so it's not worth it at all.

 

[Subtext]

^ It can also cause respiratory depression, so it's not worth it at all.

It's Friday night....hoping for a cheeky opiate hit, oh well.

 

[opi8]

You'd want to go a few days without bupe before indulging, but your tolerance to all full agonists will be pretty high and codeine would do SFA unless you're an extensive metabolizer, even then you'd be lucky to gain any recreational effects. Stick to your bupe taper man, get off that shit and you'll be right

 

[Subtext]

Def. not gonna do anything harder to ruin the taper but I guess 'cos I've never tried codeine I thought I may feel it.

Stay Strong Sub!

 

[tyrael]

....has a half-life of around 28 hours which is about 10 hours longer then promethazine (Phenergan). It's just that promethazine is a lot stronger and sedating...

Hey M_B, I can attest to this also. Tbh I quite like Promethazine - as a chemical (clearly not referring to any sort of recreational use here! ). Personally find it an interesting drug (too nerdy? lol)

.... am I correct in thinking that the law of diminishing returns applies to codeine taken in the one day....

As Sus. has said, no point. One of codeine's major "problems" (am talking recreational here now ) - cannot generally redose. (Along with the ceiling dose ).

Actually that's good to know because I always take it on an empty stomach. But why do most pharmacists tell you to take it with food?....

Umm, I'll explain a little bit more on what M_B said. It is still definitely required to eat while taking ("certain") NSAIDs! (or drinking a glass of milk but I find this advice to be very debatable). Ok so a 5min run-down on how (the ones we're talking about here) NSAIDs work...

These* NSAID (eg, ibuprofen) are what's called non-selective COX inhibitors. This means that they inhibit the function of the COX (cyclooxygenase - of which there are 3 types) enzyme from, in this case, producing prostaglandins. Now prostaglandins have multiple functions in the body...one of which is in the transport of pain signally (this is how NSAIDs perform their analgesic properties). However, (certain) prostaglandins are also used in the generation of the mucosal lining of the stomach (this is where the "non-selective" part comes in). A lack of this musocal lining means that the stomach is not protected by the own acids it makes which could cause many pathologies (most common being gastric irritation or stomach ulcers). So, the recommendation of eating with these NSAIDs is to encourage the production of these linings.

So that made sense?! Feel free to ask as many questions as you like! (To the BL veterans, apologies if I've missed anything! )


Edit:
Ok so after a search on this thread, I realise this topic has been discussed a few pages back here. I'm personally still on the side of eating beforehand - just because this is what my own research, anecdotal evidence, and talks with physicians.

* As an a-side, not all NSAID's MOA are this way.

 

[tyrael]

It is also metabolized to AM404, which prevents break down of endocannabinoids in the brain particularly anandamide. The same substance is also a weak agonist at certain cannabinoid receptors.

I found this fascinating when researching a little more on the MOA of APAP! A nice (albeit over generalisation ) "Did you know?"/random bit of info when talking with non-med folk.

 

[Mr Blonde]

^ It is a cool fact to know; you can even use it to impress med people as I've encountered a few who didn't know much about the specific mechanism of APAP.

These* NSAID (eg, ibuprofen) are what's called non-selective COX inhibitors. This means that they inhibit the function of the COX (cyclooxygenase - of which there are 3 types) enzyme from, in this case, producing prostaglandins. Now prostaglandins have multiple functions in the body...one of which is in the transport of pain signally (this is how NSAIDs perform their analgesic properties). However, (certain) prostaglandins are also used in the generation of the mucosal lining of the stomach (this is where the "non-selective" part comes in). A lack of this musocal lining means that the stomach is not protected by the own acids it makes which could cause many pathologies (most common being gastric irritation or stomach ulcers). So, the recommendation of eating with these NSAIDs is to encourage the production of these linings.

Eating also stimulates production of HCl though, which theoretically could make damage from NSAID use worse.

Also, at least in rats, eating will cause generation of prostaglandins in certain parts of the GI but not all, as shown in this study. So any protection offered is not complete.

One thing that telling people that they can eat food to ease any stomach upset does do though is put the patient's mind at rest about it which is one reason that it's still encouraged. Another is that having a full stomach may help reduce nausea that some people may experience on these medications.

 

[Machete]

I've been told or have read that redosing is literally useless...but I can remember it working ok for me in the ancient past.

I would have been on lower doses though, so sustanon probably knows whats what.

In my experience, redosing categorically does work. Some people might not be able to but I don't like that it's been generalised to all of us.

I've also never experienced the alleged ceiling effect but that was a dubious claim in the first place.

 

[pinkanga]

^^Think it depends on your tolerance. I used to re-dose back in the splittable n+ days and it seemed to have some effect.

 

[Machete]

Anyway, imagine my surprise when I did the usual routine yesterday evening (dissolved 45 generic tabs, cooled, filtered, popped a diphenhydramine in anticipation) and then, about 15 minutes after drinking the CWE liquid, I turned bright fucking red all over the chest and back and up the sides of my neck, and had the worst attack of the itchies in my life. I was ready to pull my skin off, it was so intense. I was clawing my neck and head and using whatever I could find to scratch my back ( a hairbrush was the best) and it kept getting worse.

About 30 minutes in, my skin was scarlet and had many little bumps on it and felt very hot. Just like I'd been bitten by 50 mosquitoes all at once.

^ Codeine is well known for producing a reaction almost like an allergy in many people; it's strange you've managed to avoid it until now.

Not as strange as you'd think. Me and a friend of mine have both had this reaction a few times in discrete, independent occurrences even after breaking in a high tolerance (500+mg a shot). It happens seemingly at random. Of course nothing like this is truly random but it could be a pill problem, methodological failure, unusual biological conditions or even something entirely different -- I don't know.

It's not a great feeling, Halif, it must be said. Whenever it happened to me I had to stop what I was doing, go home (if I wasn't already) and lay naked in front of the fan for an hour or two. On the bright side, the reaction doesn't bear any relation to your "allergicness" and is of no apparent consequence once it's over.

 

[Machete]

^^Think it depends on your tolerance. I used to re-dose back in the splittable n+ days and it seemed to have some effect.

Oh but I was able to redose successfully throughout my CWE career. I used redosing extensively at first to gain greater control over the high and then later on, when my ideal dose was >500mg, I redosed to overcome the shorter duration caused by tolerance.

Redosing codeine has always done for me what redosing most drugs does. In fact I wasn't even aware that failing redoses were a common problem with codeine, I just assumed that because I could, that was the standard.

 

[bobbydarren]

Eating also stimulates production of HCl though, which theoretically could make damage from NSAID use worse.

.

eating of protein before nsaid stimulates acid but also the mucous barrier and also the bicarbonate PH production within the mucous barrier. It's why milk can save you from stomach pain with alcohol, people say it's the fat, but it's more likely the protein producing the alkaline within the mucous layer. I mean proteins are the biggest producer of acid but obviously eating a nice hamburger isn't going to cause a healthy person more stomach problems than eating pasta. I don't think Pasta produces the bicarbonate for the mucous layer, so not only should people eat before hand, they should be told to eat proteins. Well a glass of milk anyway.

Anyway you obviously read up on all this and know your shit, but most pharmacists if prompted about what food you should eat will say protein rich food or a glass of milk. It's just the pharmacist assistant chicks dumb it down and say 'take with food'

 

[Hajime]

Whats the point of this?


No one uses scolding hot water. I use water from purifier that is between 7-11 degrees. The pills usually flour out and form a sludge in a matter of minutes that easily mixed/stirred. I then throw it in the fridge or the freezer for a bit, stir it again, back in the freezer for 5-10mins (its usually pretty cold still so gotta be careful about freezing) or Ill just throw it in the fridge for half an hour and let the shit settle at the bottom then squeeze through a shirt then filter through a coffee filter.

Almost always get crystal clear solution unless using generic brand 10/500 pills which seem to have some sort of colouring in them.... or are just messy for some reason.

But who would use scolding hot water like you say? That apparently isnt good for the codeine anyway.

#1 I use scolding hot water for the sake of speed... it cuts through the pill filler a lot faster than warm water when you have 24-50 pills and I haven't experienced any noticeable reduction in potency. To reference:

Extract from Codeine's MSDS:
MELTING POINT 154 - 156 C
BOILING POINT 250 C
-http://chemicalland21.com/lifescience/phar/CODEINE.htmhttp://chemicalland21.com/lifescience/phar/CODEINE.htm

Ok, pinkaga... You obviously didnt read my post.... if you are talking about apap/codeine pills, my point was this... You look at how long it takes for 10g of apap to absorb into 500ml of water and then you put it in the fridge; see how long it takes for the water to not taste bitter? It takes 1-3days.

Your solution may be crystal clear but that is no indication of how much apap is actually in there. APAP has a pretty strong bitterness that almost overpowers codeine...

The harm reduction information for cold water codeine/apap extractions for larger amounts of smaller mg apap/codeine pills should be amended because imo its not safe unless you take ur time separating by temperature and you really know the difference between what codeine and apap taste like.

 

[Crankinit]

The harm reduction information for cold water codeine/apap extractions for larger amounts of smaller mg apap/codeine pills should be amended because imo its not safe unless you take ur time separating by temperature and you really know the difference between what codeine and apap taste like.

What makes you say that? The amount of pills/APAP doesn't affect the solubility of APAP, in theory you should be getting the same amount whether you extract from 5 grams or 25 (to my understanding).

Speaking anecdotally, I've done hundreds, if not thousands, of CWE's over the last few years, and my liver is in perfect condition, and I've yet to hear of any regular CWE users who've experienced health problems as a result of APAP intake.

 

[opi8]

@Hajime, have you read any other CWE threads or information that is freely available all over Bluelight, or are you simply going by a self observed, unmeasured "experiment" that you did once?

Paracetamol, or APAP is more soluble the warmer the water is. That is why people do COLD water extractions. There is no need to use warm water, and there is no sane reason to use hot water at all, at any point in a Cold Water Extraction procedure. Crush your pills if you think they are taking too long to dissolve, a cheap mortar and pestle from K Mart does a great job of this, but don't use anything other than cold water. The colder, the better.

 

[Hajime]

@Cabjubut: dosent effect the solubility, you are right and thats not what I was saying... -its got everything to do with the rate of absorption.

ok, The amount apap you are absorbing on say in 10 (500/30) forte pills isnt that much.... take 24-50 (500/10) pills and suddenly u have a very unsafe level of apap to deal with...

It gets more complicated as apap doesnt have the best water solubility to begin with, when it does asborb into the solution it takes forever for it to fully crystalise out (@ 1 degree Celsius)

basically there is this trade off, your first wash is probably going to be safe enough to drink but any more washes after that and ur taking apap even if you are using cold water. -Cold water only decreases the rate the apap absorbs.

I mean in theory, a cold water extraction works no problems if u did it right.... which is the point Im trying to make: why do something the messy/long way when there is a much faster easier/cleaner way.

I only use scolding hot water on ibuprofen/codeine tablets and ibuprofen doesnt carry with hot water like apap... hot water also lets the product pass through the filter faster as well.

EDIT: Im looking at the easiest way of doing things here vs how safe I can keep it and imo, cwe with apap doesnt work as reliably as hot water with ibuprofen

I really need to get a camera, scales and thermometer just to prove what Im saying here... a lot of people are probably still doing damage to the liver/kidneys because they didnt have patience to do a cwe properly.

 

[Verybuffed]

Has anyone heard any more about OTC Promethazine and Doxylamine succinate being made prescription only? My doctor told me that it was coming soon but that was a few months ago.

 

[Mr Blonde]

^ Well they are still OTC now and as I said in the other thread, the TGA has invitations for public comment before making a scheduling change (re-posting this here for everyone else's benefit).

I will keep an eye on the emails I get from the TGA and see if anything comes up.

 

[pinkanga]

Whats the point? They dont really strike me as meds that could be abused. Well Im sure they are I guess.... more misuse rather than abuse. But the repercussions arent really anything worse than feeling lethargic and overly tired etc.

Gotta love the Aus nanny state sometimes.