Phenobarbitone

[honeywhite]

Honeywhite, I'm actually not trying to insult you. I'm trying to get you to a point where you are insulted by your own behavior, without my aid. This has followed a predictable course, I'm sorry to say. Generally, when people lose all other cards that they could play intellectually, they start trying to come at us with their career and how we should listen to them because they are a doctor, a lawyer a "scientist" (my personal favorite) or what have you. We don't have respect for people on the forums because of what they do for work during the day. In fact, unless it's relevant, we don't give a shit at all.

This is worrisome, because I feel like you honestly don't feel that there's anything wrong with what you're doing. You're childishly trying to portray me as some kind of bully toward you because I chastised you for treating human life as a joke. I'm sorry that you feel bullied. If I am understanding your point correctly, you're saying "I don't have control of my vehicle, but only until I get to the white line, at which point, I automatically will correct myself every time". The point is, you do not have full control of the vehicle in the first place or you would not be on the white line.

Are you really trying to imply that Paraldehyde "Melts Glass"? Again, dude, this just is not true.

"I know Benzo patients, and I know opiate and barb patients. The latter group is normal..." I'm not sure what that means. Use your superior skills of explanation to explain to us lowly intellectual peons what "normal" means in your mind?

Please, please, please stop disseminating information to the community until you have a better understanding of what you're talking about. It could be dangerous. You've stated a lot of items as fact that are either dubious or utterly incorrect and we are dealing with peoples' lives here. Phenobarbital is indeed a sedative. I don't know how many times you need to be corrected on this issue. Your point that Phenobarbital is an anticonvulsant, not a sedative is like me saying a dog has four legs, not ears.

Now you're just sarcastically insulting YOURSELF.

1) Paraldehyde melts PLASTIC and not GLASS. Sorry, mea culpa. I'd fail my MRCGPs if I made such a stupid error on the test. Must be given in a glass syringe and even then it self-oxidises when exposed to air.
2) Benzo people ended up tripping all over themselves, sex in hallways etc, barb patients just needed a cane but spoke eloquently and on topic. and chronic painers (like me) were just sort of... there. Morphine doesn't affect the vestibular system. Had a few kiddos on my floor that took pheno.
3) Phenobarbital, pentobarbital, barbital, mephobarbital, and others are indeed sedatives. I never disputed this point. Pentobarbital is a gentle hypnotic and even that I have doubts. Secobarbital or Quinalbarbitone is a classic sedative hypnotic.
4) I already said, FOUR TIMES on this forum. that what I did was a big error in judgement. How many times can I say I apologise to my fellow users of the road?

 

[Scrofula]

OK, I came in to see if someone could remember how when you order "formaldehyde" you actually get paraldehyde, and when you order paraldehyde, you get formaldehyde, So when you go to use your formaldehyde you have to heat it up to depolymerize the paraldehyde that you actually have. Something about a ratio too.

Then I realized I was thinking paraformaldehyde, which wouldn't melt glass or plastic.

After looking it up, I can't imagine anyone using "paraldehyde" as a medicine after the 19th century. What's the MOA, it's a depressant cause it opens up and randomly crosslinks various brain proteins? Let's inject it in your baby, make sure you don't use a plastic syringe!

Generally, when people lose all other cards that they could play intellectually, they start trying to come at us with their career and how we should listen to them because they are a doctor, a lawyer a "scientist" (my personal favorite) or what have you.

In a spirit of fun Keif, I'd point out that a lot of genuine scientists don't bring up that fact in arguments because they're then immediately dismissed--after all, scientists aren't human, and any argument they make must be reductionist and devoid of the warmth and emotion normal people feel. They may be guaranteed to have 3X the schooling of the average American, but the thought they might have retained some ideas during that schooling, unrelated to their field, is somehow unthinkable.

 

[honeywhite]

OK, I came in to see if someone could remember how when you order "formaldehyde" you actually get paraldehyde, and when you order paraldehyde, you get formaldehyde, So when you go to use your formaldehyde you have to heat it up to depolymerize the paraldehyde that you actually have. Something about a ratio too.

Then I realized I was thinking paraformaldehyde, which wouldn't melt glass or plastic.

After looking it up, I can't imagine anyone using "paraldehyde" as a medicine after the 19th century. What's the MOA, it's a depressant cause it opens up and randomly crosslinks various brain proteins? Let's inject it in your baby, make sure you don't use a plastic syringe!





In a spirit of fun Keif, I'd point out that a lot of genuine scientists don't bring up that fact in arguments because they're then immediately dismissed--after all, scientists aren't human, and any argument they make must be reductionist and devoid of the warmth and emotion normal people feel. They may be guaranteed to have 3X the schooling of the average American, but the thought they might have retained some ideas during that schooling, unrelated to their field, is somehow unthinkable.

Paraldehyde is formaldehyde with the formic acid replaced by acetic acid. It is the safest known depressant, with benzo like action, but has a foul taste. It's GABAergic. The downside is a vinegary odour on the breath. VERY hypnotic - even at anticonvulsant doses. Means of administration is oral or in a glass syringe. No plastic container!

I personally am very far from American

 

[cduggles]

In a spirit of fun Keif, I'd point out that a lot of genuine scientists don't bring up that fact in arguments because they're then immediately dismissed--after all, scientists aren't human, and any argument they make must be reductionist and devoid of the warmth and emotion normal people feel. They may be guaranteed to have 3X the schooling of the average American, but the thought they might have retained some ideas during that schooling, unrelated to their field, is somehow unthinkable.

Well we cannot all be as exalted as the Scrofula, but I approach infinite inhumanity asymptotically, and am occasionally accused of a lack of warmth and emotion. All hypotheses lack sufficient data.

honeywhite, you are punching yourself out like Foreman in the Rumble.

You pulled the "S" card to justify driving on disco biscuits... and you are a lawyer. Let me guess, Oliver Sacks?

 

[Scrofula]

Whoa, don't diss Oliver Sacks, a genuine intellectual and depressive queer who lysergamided his blues away in between books on right brain trauma.

Have I mentioned the time I was given phenobarbital by IV in the ER? Yes, but I remember it fondly in the five minutes before it blacked me out. When I came to enough to sort of wave my arms around and blink, they let me go onto the streets of Oakland whence I came, after which I found myself detained by M16-wielding MPs on a military base (that is not a hallucination, that actually happened). I then lay until the sun came up behind some bushed on Alameda, which is an island and not Oakland.

If I have a point it's that phenobarbital is not a drug for recreation. Or even routine anxiolysis.

I'd think it's use would disbar most people, and certainly be grounds to challenge any representation.

In any case, OP, I'm hoping your stories are as facetious as your chemistry knowledge, based on your description of paraldehyde.

 

[Keif' Richards]

Now you're just sarcastically insulting YOURSELF.

1) Paraldehyde melts PLASTIC and not GLASS. Sorry, mea culpa. I'd fail my MRCGPs if I made such a stupid error on the test. Must be given in a glass syringe and even then it self-oxidises when exposed to air.
2) Benzo people ended up tripping all over themselves, sex in hallways etc, barb patients just needed a cane but spoke eloquently and on topic. and chronic painers (like me) were just sort of... there. Morphine doesn't affect the vestibular system. Had a few kiddos on my floor that took pheno.
3) Phenobarbital, pentobarbital, barbital, mephobarbital, and others are indeed sedatives. I never disputed this point. Pentobarbital is a gentle hypnotic and even that I have doubts. Secobarbital or Quinalbarbitone is a classic sedative hypnotic.
4) I already said, FOUR TIMES on this forum. that what I did was a big error in judgement. How many times can I say I apologise to my fellow users of the road?

1. You are the one that implied that Paraldehyde melted glass. That was you, not me?
2. "Were, just sort of, there" what does this mean?
3. This is just not true. You're not actually stating any information that could be considered statistical or scientific. Pentobarbital (Nembutal) is a pretty hefty fucking sedative indeed. It is in fact, so sedating, that it, almost interchangeably with Secobarbital (Seconal) is used in human euthanasia, as a sole-ingredient preparation. You would have to give several hundred, maybe thousands of times a dose of a given Benzodiazepine to kill a person as a sole-ingredient cocktail. I will add that, Phenobarbital is just as easily capable of causing death, you simply need to adjust the dosage. Abbie Hoffman killed himself with Phenobarbital tablets. The takeaway here is that, like Benzodiazepines, Barbiturates possess variability in their effects, but for the most part, they're all just horses of a different color.
4. If you would have apologized like you did just now in this post from the start, you would have had less problems. You handled my chastisement with sarcasm. I'm not even upset with you for driving under the influence, in case you can't tell. I've driven under the influence at least half-a-dozen times. The issue is that you treated this as a joke and broadcast your point of view. We cannot have people from the outside thinking that we are sadistic and/or totally uncaring for human life around us, because, unfortunately, that is the stereotype.

I'll admit that I lost my temper a little bit on this one and for that, I apologize. I just really need to stress that the issue in question is a very big deal. Driving drunk is the ultimate "seemed like it wouldn't be a problem at the time" moment in one's life, because, if you pull it off, nobody gets hurt, your happy, healthy and at home sleeping it off. If it doesn't work it, it can be a violent, crimson nightmare of twisted metal and human organs.

As a little post-script, I don't think I've every become more fucked up, more quickly, on any drug ever, than when I was injecting Pentobarbital. If Barbiturates were still commercially variable, I would probably be hooked on them, because they are so enjoyable.

 

[keeping]

As a little post-script, I don't think I've every become more fucked up, more quickly, on any drug ever, than when I was injecting Pentobarbital. If Barbiturates were still commercially variable, I would probably be hooked on them, because they are so enjoyable.

"shoot me in the jugular! I have the [sedative] dart monkey on me back!!" [Venture Bros] :D

 

[Keif' Richards]

^That about sums it up It's only good if you hit the jugular.

 

[honeywhite]

Whoa, don't diss Oliver Sacks, a genuine intellectual and depressive queer who lysergamided his blues away in between books on right brain trauma.

Have I mentioned the time I was given phenobarbital by IV in the ER? Yes, but I remember it fondly in the five minutes before it blacked me out. When I came to enough to sort of wave my arms around and blink, they let me go onto the streets of Oakland whence I came, after which I found myself detained by M16-wielding MPs on a military base (that is not a hallucination, that actually happened). I then lay until the sun came up behind some bushed on Alameda, which is an island and not Oakland.

If I have a point it's that phenobarbital is not a drug for recreation. Or even routine anxiolysis.

I'd think it's use would disbar most people, and certainly be grounds to challenge any representation.

In any case, OP, I'm hoping your stories are as facetious as your chemistry knowledge, based on your description of paraldehyde.

You're the usual pheno pt. It hit you "like a sack of bricks". You're why I'm sitting here asking why 300 or even 600 mg pheno does utterly fuck all to me except dissolve my anxiety, make me unable to walk straight, and make me feel drunk. 1500mg put me to sleep 3 times over a two day period.

As for Paral, it is nothing I have first hand knowledge of but read the NHS BNF about it. I more or less quoted the BNF about it not depressing respiratory action. Same for the foul taste. Asked a nurse about the plastic.

 

[honeywhite]

1. You are the one that implied that Paraldehyde melted glass. That was you, not me?
2. "Were, just sort of, there" what does this mean?
3. This is just not true. You're not actually stating any information that could be considered statistical or scientific. Pentobarbital (Nembutal) is a pretty hefty fucking sedative indeed. It is in fact, so sedating, that it, almost interchangeably with Secobarbital (Seconal) is used in human euthanasia, as a sole-ingredient preparation. You would have to give several hundred, maybe thousands of times a dose of a given Benzodiazepine to kill a person as a sole-ingredient cocktail. I will add that, Phenobarbital is just as easily capable of causing death, you simply need to adjust the dosage. Abbie Hoffman killed himself with Phenobarbital tablets. The takeaway here is that, like Benzodiazepines, Barbiturates possess variability in their effects, but for the most part, they're all just horses of a different color.
4. If you would have apologized like you did just now in this post from the start, you would have had less problems. You handled my chastisement with sarcasm. I'm not even upset with you for driving under the influence, in case you can't tell. I've driven under the influence at least half-a-dozen times. The issue is that you treated this as a joke and broadcast your point of view. We cannot have people from the outside thinking that we are sadistic and/or totally uncaring for human life around us, because, unfortunately, that is the stereotype.

I'll admit that I lost my temper a little bit on this one and for that, I apologize. I just really need to stress that the issue in question is a very big deal. Driving drunk is the ultimate "seemed like it wouldn't be a problem at the time" moment in one's life, because, if you pull it off, nobody gets hurt, your happy, healthy and at home sleeping it off. If it doesn't work it, it can be a violent, crimson nightmare of twisted metal and human organs.

As a little post-script, I don't think I've every become more fucked up, more quickly, on any drug ever, than when I was injecting Pentobarbital. If Barbiturates were still commercially variable, I would probably be hooked on them, because they are so enjoyable.

"Mea culpa" = "my bad". So I was definitely not saying you were responsible for the total lie that Paral was corrosive to glass. It was my fault, my fault, my egregious fault for not consulting the NHS Handbook.

I have used Pentobarbital interchangeably with Phenobarbital and never really felt the difference except for the fact that the Pento hit all at once. Pheno has a sloooooooow action. Slower than Valium. Actually, maybe comparable to Valium - I always slept through it so I couldn't tell except the sun had set. I would personally (not stating fact) consider Pheno a much more dangerous drug because it acts so slowly that you're tempted just to pour the whole bottle down your throat. You KNOW Pento has acted---hard to say the same about Pheno until you slip on a completely dry floor and break your zygoma and nose. I've taken 400mg phenobarbitone, waited an hour, then poured the bottle straight down my throat (it contained, I believe, 10 or 11 tablets). Couple Modafinil and two pack on top of that. Not such a good idea (although the effects were fine).

I know someone who used Quinalbarbitone---what you lot refer to as Seconal. The results were... well... a good night's rest every time.

EDIT: "Were just sort of there" meaning that a reasonable person, looking other than at their eyes, would be unable to tell that they had ingested a psycho-active agent of any description. Looking at their eyes, their pupils refused to expand in response to darkness. Oh, yeah, me and my fellow pain pts dominated the "smallest room in the house", but I'm not about to describe that any further.

 

[Scrofula]

Actually, the phenobarbital felt like an angel slowly descended from heaven and gently rocked me in her arms for several minutes, before carrying me off to Elysium.

At the time, I was clocking in to the ER on the regular with a blood alcohol content over 0.500. So my tolerance to gabaergics was rather high, like, setting hospital records high. I was in restraints when I woke up that particular time, and the phenobarb. was clearly to knock me out and provide a long-half life booze replacement, so they didn't have to give up a bed to yet another itinerant going into acute alcohol withdrawal.

This was intravenous slow push, and onset was slow. I can only compare it to IV lorazepam (yes, a benzo not a barb) slow push, which just eventually gave me droopy eyes. I still prefer IV dilaudid (yes, an opioid, not a barb), two shots, but that's after thirty-six hours of acute pancreatitis; otherwise you can keep it.

But whatever, the barbs aren't things to sample like wine.


Let's see who can take the most euthanasia drug without actually euthanizing themselves!

 

[honeywhite]

Actually, the phenobarbital felt like an angel slowly descended from heaven and gently rocked me in her arms for several minutes, before carrying me off to Elysium.

At the time, I was clocking in to the ER on the regular with a blood alcohol content over 0.500. So my tolerance to gabaergics was rather high, like, setting hospital records high. I was in restraints when I woke up that particular time, and the phenobarb. was clearly to knock me out and provide a long-half life booze replacement, so they didn't have to give up a bed to yet another itinerant going into acute alcohol withdrawal.

This was intravenous slow push, and onset was slow. I can only compare it to IV lorazepam (yes, a benzo not a barb) slow push, which just eventually gave me droopy eyes. I still prefer IV dilaudid (yes, an opioid, not a barb), two shots, but that's after thirty-six hours of acute pancreatitis; otherwise you can keep it.

But whatever, the barbs aren't things to sample like wine.


Let's see who can take the most euthanasia drug without actually euthanizing themselves!

Lorazepam in tablet form knocked me out. Pento in capsule form felt like short acting pheno.

"Angel taking you to Elysium"? Sure they didn't give you Dilaudid by accident?

 

[Scrofula]

Nah dude, that's what we've been talking about.

Lorazepam is just Ativan. I could eat a couple right now and not notice anything (in fact I did the other day, and I'm half the weight I was, with a tolerance reset to cold zero). At the time I was regularly drinking more than the lethal dose of ethanol, and phenobarb still blacked me out for half a day.

You need to back off this stuff before you die, or more likely figure out what it is you're actually consuming. You will certainly not be able to manage law school and/or med school while dependent on this stuff.

 

[Keif' Richards]

"Mea culpa" = "my bad". So I was definitely not saying you were responsible for the total lie that Paral was corrosive to glass. It was my fault, my fault, my egregious fault for not consulting the NHS Handbook.

I have used Pentobarbital interchangeably with Phenobarbital and never really felt the difference except for the fact that the Pento hit all at once. Pheno has a sloooooooow action. Slower than Valium. Actually, maybe comparable to Valium - I always slept through it so I couldn't tell except the sun had set. I would personally (not stating fact) consider Pheno a much more dangerous drug because it acts so slowly that you're tempted just to pour the whole bottle down your throat. You KNOW Pento has acted---hard to say the same about Pheno until you slip on a completely dry floor and break your zygoma and nose. I've taken 400mg phenobarbitone, waited an hour, then poured the bottle straight down my throat (it contained, I believe, 10 or 11 tablets). Couple Modafinil and two pack on top of that. Not such a good idea (although the effects were fine).

I know someone who used Quinalbarbitone---what you lot refer to as Seconal. The results were... well... a good night's rest every time.

EDIT: "Were just sort of there" meaning that a reasonable person, looking other than at their eyes, would be unable to tell that they had ingested a psycho-active agent of any description. Looking at their eyes, their pupils refused to expand in response to darkness. Oh, yeah, me and my fellow pain pts dominated the "smallest room in the house", but I'm not about to describe that any further.

It's fine. I think we are capable of moving past this man. All I wanted from you was a direct apology for the statement, not a half-assed response as if I'm your mother telling you to keep your room clean. If you want to be able to socialize and share discourse with us HoneyWhite, it's best to not adopt the idea that you're being persecuted. I will admit that the fact that you were non-chalant about the intoxicated driving made me angry and that influenced the bitchy way in which I continued to communicate with you in the thread. I don't think there's any reason to continue with that.

Also, I will not directly insult your level of knowledge, but one of the other issues we've seen in this thread is the posting of dubious or incorrect information presented as fact. I am not calling you stupid or incompetent. I'm sure you have a lot of knowledge that would be extremely helpful to the community. However, the important part about sharing information on the forums is doing your best to confirm that the information you're presenting as fact is, indeed, fact. We all make mistakes. We're human and there's no "quality control" aside from deleting incorrect information after it has already been propagated.

Just keep in mind, that even if you post something incorrect accidentally, like the Paraldehyde thing, for instance, people will still read it and might accept it as fact. It's a sad fact that human beings, myself included, are sheep. People are highly suggestible and as ridiculous as it sounds, simply reading something on the internet or in print in general is enough to fully convince people of information's veracity. So, just try to take a little more care before posting and maybe proofread what you've got before posting to avoid this sort of thing in the future.

Nobody thinks you're stupid, but we have to correct misinformation.

 

[honeywhite]

Nah dude, that's what we've been talking about.

Lorazepam is just Ativan. I could eat a couple right now and not notice anything (in fact I did the other day, and I'm half the weight I was, with a tolerance reset to cold zero). At the time I was regularly drinking more than the lethal dose of ethanol, and phenobarb still blacked me out for half a day.

You need to back off this stuff before you die, or more likely figure out what it is you're actually consuming. You will certainly not be able to manage law school and/or med school while dependent on this stuff.

I'm actually consuming Phenobarbitone. Prescribed, given over the counter in a pharmacy, contained in a brown glass bottle, white tablets (not capsules) doubly scored in a + pattern. Bottle is labelled "PHENOBARBITONE Sg.: For nerves as needed."

Last two or three days, phenobarbitone dosage was nil. No withdrawal symptoms, although I've been getting a bit stressed out and have called the pharmacy to deliver my re-fill. I'd rather have it (and use it when necessary and only when necessary) than not have it.

Ativan knocks me out. Told ya. Benzos knock me out. This works. Atarax also "sort of" works (then knocks me out) as does Lyrica (I'd rather have the Lyrica atm but in the absence thereof...)

I haven't any clue WHY benzodiazepines knock me out and diethyl-malonyl esters don't (if I knew, I wouldn't be asking), and I also haven't any clue WHY diethyl-malonyl esters, especially one supposed to be utterly devoid of recreational use, are non-hypnotic (in my personal experience). My mother tried one of my little white "nerve pills" before court and didn't have the best experience. I think I'm just weird.

 

[Scrofula]

(If I had to guess, it would be because diethyl malonate shouldn't be psychoactive for anyone. Yes, that's a reagent in one synthesis of barbital, not really relevant.)

Here's the thing: your phenobarb has an enormously long half-life--two to seven days. If you are one of the slower metabolizers, it would take over a month to clear it from your system.

So dosing every other day may actually be slowly building up to steady state levels and heavy tolerance. That makes it pointless for treating anxiety--and another reason to question whoever it is that wrote you a script "For nerves PRN". There's a reason these things aren't prescribed that way in the last half century.

About the only benefit to such a long half-life is that it will avoid the shock of acute withdrawal; quitting cold-turkey results in a natural taper. Long-term use wouldn't spare you from any PAWS effects, though.

It's also my understanding that barbs and benzos have different binding sites, so taking any benzo on top would still be additive, even though barb tolerance should provide cross-tolerance to benzos. I'd imagine if you were subjected to dialysis right now to clear the phenobarb from your blood (this would probably cause lethal seizures, but we're imagining), any benzo taken with your tolerance wouldn't make an eyelid flutter.

But as I've said, if you have a physician prescribing this stuff to you "for nerves" he is failing you as a proper physician. You'll just be horribly dependent on a dangerous drug, with anxiety that will only slowly return.

 

[honeywhite]

I understand that you're information has implied otherwise, but like I said, all of your problems are pretty common. Some people are going to be more likely to go to sleep when they're intoxicated and some will keep operating and doing things. It's just like Alcohol in so many ways. Don't some people have ten drinks and pass out on the couch, while some people have ten drinks go to the bar and fuck all night.

Ataxia is sort of a hallmark of Barbiturate intoxication. Where are you getting your information that what you're experiencing is atypical? The word Ataxia is listed as one of the utmost common effects of not only Phenobarbital, but Barbiturates in general. You are more likely to experience Ataxia as a symptom than not to, especially considering the fact that you're playing with 10 times the typical single dose of Phenobarbital. The fact that Phenobarbital is a longer-acting Barbiturate also lends to its being less hypnotic, which is why it is typically indicated for daytime use for conditions like epilepsy and drugs like Seco/Pento and to a lesser extent Amobarbital are used more frequently for their hypnotic effect.

The problem there (as I see it) is that Dalmane and Serax are benzodiazepine agents marketed specifically for sleep. They are also, to my knowledge, with all their metabolites considered, the longest-acting benzodiazepines in existence (with the possible exceptions of Valium and Librium). All exert a hypnotic effect on me personally. Even the Valium and Librium. Phenemal, Nembutal, and what we jokingly call Two-In-All (Tuinal) don't. Well, I haven't any personal experience with Two-In-All but Amytal (which is one of the two) is just about the same as Phenemal except for the headaches I get after using it. Quinalbarbitone is the exception - that one seems to be relatively hypnotic for a -tone but I'll stick to Serax if I need it (the hell I do!)

Phenemal and Nembutal are still fairly commonly prescribed here as is, apparently, the Two-In-All. I know one person that legally uses Nembutal for nerves and there are a few epileptics I know who haven't "graduated" from Phenemal to more adult anti-seizure drugs (Lamictal seems, at least to me, to be the default option)

Oh, I've just had the queerest of ideas. Since Drinamyl = dexedrine + amylobarbitone, does that make what I'm on Drinaphen?

(Unstated hypothesis: lack of hypnotic effect is down to drug class)

 

[honeywhite]

(If I had to guess, it would be because diethyl malonate shouldn't be psychoactive for anyone. Yes, that's a reagent in one synthesis of barbital, not really relevant.)

Here's the thing: your phenobarb has an enormously long half-life--two to seven days. If you are one of the slower metabolizers, it would take over a month to clear it from your system.

So dosing every other day may actually be slowly building up to steady state levels and heavy tolerance. That makes it pointless for treating anxiety--and another reason to question whoever it is that wrote you a script "For nerves PRN". There's a reason these things aren't prescribed that way in the last half century.

About the only benefit to such a long half-life is that it will avoid the shock of acute withdrawal; quitting cold-turkey results in a natural taper. Long-term use wouldn't spare you from any PAWS effects, though.

It's also my understanding that barbs and benzos have different binding sites, so taking any benzo on top would still be additive, even though barb tolerance should provide cross-tolerance to benzos. I'd imagine if you were subjected to dialysis right now to clear the phenobarb from your blood (this would probably cause lethal seizures, but we're imagining), any benzo taken with your tolerance wouldn't make an eyelid flutter.

But as I've said, if you have a physician prescribing this stuff to you "for nerves" he is failing you as a proper physician. You'll just be horribly dependent on a dangerous drug, with anxiety that will only slowly return.

I use it just about every other week. I frequently forget to take the bottle with me when I travel. Never, and I mean never, experienced withdrawal.

I love the long half-life - that's why I can function for the two to three days I'd otherwise spend obsessively checking up on my friends and biting my nails.

How does Amytal compare, half-life wise? If it didn't give me the headaches I'd consider it but I just plain like Pheno. It works - yes, produces tolerance if I rely on it too much, but that's sort of my fault for using it as my cane.

The Pheno was prescribed strictly on an as-needed basis. "Come see me when you run out" and a big smile being the usual thing. The prescribing physicians have been a male urologist in middle age (who scripted with some reluctance - then again he does EVERYTHING with reluctance, even walking) and a female family doctor my age or thereabouts (25-26). The girl was the one who sort of acted shocked at my request for a "children's epilepsy pill".

So, the takeaway being, I think, dose less, certainly not once every two days (which I don't anyway). Yes, my last dose was two days ago, and I'd rather have a bottle of Phenemal present in my room in case, but before that I think I hadn't had any for three weeks. The 60-count bottle lasted a year. Besides, I'd rather my anxiety returned slowly than quickly - there's a reason I turned down Mother's Little Helper (British nickname for Nembutal).

PS: If the whole diethyl-malonyl class of anxiolytics was non-existent, what would you suggest? I can only get Mandrax in Canada and even that is soporific! Chloral hydrate with coffee perhaps?

 

[Scrofula]

Amobarbital has a much shorter half-life, 8-42 hours. Like your phenobarbital, I don't know who would ever prescribe it, or what pharmacy would stock it, outside Langley, VA (although I doubt even the CIA uses it anymore).

I've actually been given chloral hydrate (which is lowly scheduled in the US, its main use being as a reagent for GUS-staining plant sections, which I know from a previous life--if you're curious, visit a plant biology section of a university, which will have a bottle rotting away in some cabinet) at a rehab for alcohol withdrawal. Came in a little cup like hospital applesauce. It did jack shit for me, and I just kept pacing the hall all night. I don't recommend it, and like paraldehyde, should not be good to have in your bloodstream.

What works best for you depends on your symptoms. If you're prone to panic attacks, a fast acting, short-lived benzo is probably best. If you have a generalized anxiety disorder, a benzo (or barb) is not a good idea, as tolerance is rapid, dependency is certain, and withdrawal is dangerous. They cause serious impairment with each dose increase.

For generalized anxiety, drugs like gabapentin or pregabalin, which are not directly gabaergic, help a lot of people (including me). There are the non-GABA A drugs like Baclofen or the unscheduled phenibut. Then there are antidepressants, and that's a whole 'nother class.

Even non-traditional psych drugs like clonidine are known to help with anxiety.

There's a whole pharmacy of drugs out there, and your physician is being irresponsible if you're actually seeking treatment, and not just a high. (He's being irresponsible no matter what--he essentially gave you the means to kill yourself without so much as a discussion on how you felt? He's worthy of having his license yanked, IMHO.)

 

[Scrofula]

Oh, I've just had the queerest of ideas. Since Drinamyl = dexedrine + amylobarbitone, does that make what I'm on Drinaphen?

Ugh, sorry I missed this. We had a recent poster who took me for a good 150 post ride about mixing "his" amphetamines with benzos.

I hope this isn't the same thing.