Phenobarbitone

[honeywhite]

Amobarbital has a much shorter half-life, 8-42 hours. Like your phenobarbital, I don't know who would ever prescribe it, or what pharmacy would stock it, outside Langley, VA (although I doubt even the CIA uses it anymore).

I've actually been given chloral hydrate (which is lowly scheduled in the US, its main use being as a reagent for GUS-staining plant sections, which I know from a previous life--if you're curious, visit a plant biology section of a university, which will have a bottle rotting away in some cabinet) at a rehab for alcohol withdrawal. Came in a little cup like hospital applesauce. It did jack shit for me, and I just kept pacing the hall all night. I don't recommend it, and like paraldehyde, should not be good to have in your bloodstream.

What works best for you depends on your symptoms. If you're prone to panic attacks, a fast acting, short-lived benzo is probably best. If you have a generalized anxiety disorder, a benzo (or barb) is not a good idea, as tolerance is rapid, dependency is certain, and withdrawal is dangerous. They cause serious impairment with each dose increase.

For generalized anxiety, drugs like gabapentin or pregabalin, which are not directly gabaergic, help a lot of people (including me). There are the non-GABA A drugs like Baclofen or the unscheduled phenibut. Then there are antidepressants, and that's a whole 'nother class.

Even non-traditional psych drugs like clonidine are known to help with anxiety.

There's a whole pharmacy of drugs out there, and your physician is being irresponsible if you're actually seeking treatment, and not just a high. (He's being irresponsible no matter what--he essentially gave you the means to kill yourself without so much as a discussion on how you felt? He's worthy of having his license yanked, IMHO.)

Amylobarbitone is still used in the UK - must be stored in the poisons cabinet however, like morphine, strychnine, phenobarbitone, etc. The tablets (I believe) have been withdrawn and only injectable amytal sodium remains. There is also of course two-in-all.

Yes, I'm aware of the non-pharmaceutical use of chloral; in fact, here it's not judged to be a drug, but a chemical on the same order as water or nitrous oxide or even nitrogen itself. We also have chloral capsules, which are striped black and white liquigels!

What I'm prone to is stretched-out situational panic. Not panic disorder because those tend to be 5-15 minute attacks of intense stress, and not GAD because GADers tend to be anxious and neurotic all the time. Think of it as panic disorder over two days and you'll understand---after that I'm back to normal.

Benzos are out on account of promoting sleep. This is a point I have repeatedly emphasised both to my neuropsych and my very young and very fetching family doctor. Serotonin drugs are out on account of fiddling with serotonin - this is not a chemical I want to play with and the sexual side effects can be permanent. I also want nothing I need to take daily. If I'm not suffering symptoms daily, why should I take medicine daily?

Pregabalin and gabapentin were considered as second choices due to GHB-like side effects. I've had them before and wouldn't mind but there seems to be better. I know nothing about baclofen or clonidine except that they are useful in alcoholism treatment. Vistaril seems to work to a small extent but peters out before the symptoms do.

I'm sort of seeking both treatment and a high if that's an option. I don't mind if the medication I use makes me feel better than normal. The most important thing is that the symptoms go away. If they're replaced by drunkenness, great, that's less money I need to spend on champagne.

 

[honeywhite]

Ugh, sorry I missed this. We had a recent poster who took me for a good 150 post ride about mixing "his" amphetamines with benzos.

I hope this isn't the same thing.

No. If there's anything I'm "addicted" to, it's eugeroics like modafinil. The effects with barbiturates seem to be synergistic, like a coffee with sambuca.

There used to be a combination amphetamine-amytal cocktail available as Drinamyl and it might still be available; since this combines two different agents from the same classes and is a "stretched out" version of Drinamyl, I came up with the name Drinaphen. Two daffies and three pheno tablets seem to be the ideal dose.

 

[Scrofula]

The problem is that discounting "serotonin" leaves out an awful lot of meds. You may mean SSRIs, which, sure, lower libido and make your orgasms just "meh". Some people would consider that a small price to pay to get their life out of periodic anxiety, while avoiding drug dependence.

It also makes no sense to discount benzos on account of making you "sleepy" while you take modafinil to function on barbiturates. It's like using meth to stay conscious on propofol and saying antihistamines make you too drowsy (and that particular logic is what reminds me of a previous poster).

 

[Keif' Richards]

Honeywhite, please just listen to what I have to say for one brief moment. One of the primary reasons that Phenobarbital is, as you have mentioned, primarily prescribed to children in modern times, is not because it's weak or not dangerous, the issue is that Phenobarbital is a great anticonvulsant, but the effects tend to wane and are definitely not constant. By prescribing Phenobarbital to children with epilepsy, prescribers have access to a powerful substance that is almost sure to stop or contribute to lessening severity of seizures while the child can develop, live a normal life and a neurologist/team can begin to find more suitable, permanent methods that can continue into adulthood. So, I should've explained earlier, but I don't like that you constantly go back to referring to Barbiturates as if they are candy or a flintstones vitamin.

Now, I think another misconception that you may have about Phenobarbital is that you can avoid tolerance by doing things like skipping days etc. This is partially true, but mostly not, as the half-life of Phenobarbital can and does exceed in some, 5 days, meaning, it might take ten days for an individual dosage to be even significantly metabolized. Another aspect of drug intoxication we've covered in this nifty thread, is the concept of naivite toward how truly intoxicated one might be. This is especially so, when you are sleeping and waking while still under the influence of a drug as long lasting as Phenobarbital. Lines will become blurred over the course of a few days, especially at such high dosages, which actually, given your case, explains a lot.

Again, I'm not trying to put you down or degrade you honeywhite, but I think you might have a slight misunderstanding regarding the difference between what is actually "panic" and what is "severe anxiety". They are different in major ways. When you're researching some of the things we've discussed in this thread that you should try learning about, I would definitely familiarize yourself with the differences. People don't typically undergo days' long panic attacks.

This part is less important, but I know it can seem like a lot of us try really hard to sound smart and "scientific", but sometimes, it's easier to forego more advanced terminology in favor of terms that will be more easily recognized by the community as a whole. For this reason, I would just say "Barbiturates", as opposed to using the long-form nomenclature (which is actually of a slightly different meaning and usage anyway) Diethyl Malonate Esters or what have you. It would be like me writing out "3,6 Diacetyl Ester of Morphine", when I'm really just trying to say Heroin.

 

[honeywhite]

This part is less important, but I know it can seem like a lot of us try really hard to sound smart and "scientific", but sometimes, it's easier to forego more advanced terminology in favor of terms that will be more easily recognized by the community as a whole. For this reason, I would just say "Barbiturates", as opposed to using the long-form nomenclature (which is actually of a slightly different meaning and usage anyway) Diethyl Malonate Esters or what have you. It would be like me writing out "3,6 Diacetyl Ester of Morphine", when I'm really just trying to say Heroin.

Here we say and, when given a valid prescription, sell, diamorphine. It's a trademark violation to sell heroin-branded heroin (legal but controlled). I don't want the Bayer lawyers breathing down my neck! (You might also see "morphine diacetate" on pills here---to my knowledge it means the same but I'll just plain call it morphine)

As for diethyl-malonyl esters, that's a term that pops up interchangeably with barbiturate and even -barbital or -barbitone in the 1978 manual. I use it interchangeably. If the community has trouble understanding me or worse thinks I'm full of myself (I'm not!), I'll pick one and stick with it. Plus I don't want to put in an asterisk with the words "excludes diethylmalonylurea per se which is inert in the human body to modern knowledge".

I never said I skipped days. I said I usually skipped 2-3 weeks. I also never said Phenemal did not deserve respect. It's a paediatric tablet but I never called it a shitty paediatric tablet---in fact the first words out of my mouth were "Why is this wonder drug not prescribed more?!" I did once ask a neurologist why it was licenced for children only and his response was, (condensed down to a few words), "It's safer that way". The pharmacy only ever orders two bottles every month. (Mum didn't like it though!)

I also never said I underwent day-long panic attacks. That would be an impossibility. But you can think of my stressed out episodes as day-long panic attacks. Formal classification was Anxiety Disorder NOS. Yes, I do take barbiturates like candy on some days (as I said, that's why I consider Phenemal, "the children's epilepsy pill", way, way more dangerous than Nembutal, because it takes 2 hours to hit!). Other days, the bottle sits in my gigantic basket of vitamins, supplements, morphine, and minerals---gathering dust. Weeks at a time.

 

[honeywhite]

The problem is that discounting "serotonin" leaves out an awful lot of meds. You may mean SSRIs, which, sure, lower libido and make your orgasms just "meh". Some people would consider that a small price to pay to get their life out of periodic anxiety, while avoiding drug dependence.

It also makes no sense to discount benzos on account of making you "sleepy" while you take modafinil to function on barbiturates. It's like using meth to stay conscious on propofol and saying antihistamines make you too drowsy (and that particular logic is what reminds me of a previous poster).

Some people would. I've never had drug addiction issues and addiction doesn't loom like a spectre in my mind. I've thrown away my buprenorphine for much much less---the patches and tablets made my feet swell up and sexual side effects worse than the SSRIs WITHOUT LOWERING LIBIDO! Yes, the SSRIs and tricyclics is what I meant. I actually LIKE Zyban.

As for the modafinil, you've got it exactly backwards. I take modafinil nightly. With coffee. Not to function on barbiturates. To function, full stop. If I take the barbiturates on that particular day (more "clean" days than "dirty"), I don't fall asleep or even feel sleepy. If I take pheno in the morning when I've taken NOTHING ELSE (aside from morphine), I fall asleep at midnight. I'd tend to say that's non-hypnotic. I don't know what you'd say

NOTE: On account of the danger of overdosing I will once again give pregabalin some thought but at the time I was up to 900 mg, three of the biggest pills I've ever seen, and was seeing double.

 

[Keif' Richards]

Honeywhite, for the sake of the forums, are you fucking with me? If you've just been trying to get a rise, I am willing to admit you've gone about it in an extremely effective way, especially if you're at all familiar with the lengths I will go to when trying to reach a definitive answer to issues such as this. If this is the case, Kudos to you. Only mini-kudos though, I'm afraid, as if this is the case, for the sake of humor, you've probably caused undue disruption to the HR capacity of BDD and Bluelight in general.

So, literally, if you're latest post is called #4, please count backward until you reach post #1. In, post #1 as we're calling it for reference purposes, you distinctly say that what you suffer from is not anxiety, but is in fact, a two day form of panic disorder.

This is literally, verbatim, what you just said, yourself, literally, yesterday:

"Think of it as panic disorder over two days and you'll understand---after that I'm back to normal."

And then, you say "I never said I skip days", when a week is indeed just a quick way of referring to groups of 5-7 days depending upon the scenario in which the term is being used. So, again, (we had a similar issue with argument earlier), when you say "I don't skip days, I skip weeks", you're really just saying that you are skipping multiple days at a time or in a plural sense.

I'm being totally serious that I think you might be experiencing some blackouts dude, because over the course of the past few days that this thread has been open, you've made pretty clear statements regarding your beliefs and opinions, only to claim that said beliefs and/or opinions are actually not held by you and that you have, indeed, never said them. For the love of Noah and his sons', one of whom, as a pillar of Jewish folklore, is in fact named Ham, can you please enlighten me as to what the hell is going on?

Honeywhite, this is totally fine, as we have a lot of international members populating our community, but if English is not your first language, their is utterly no shame in doing so. I understand you're in the UK, but their are non-native speakers there, just as there are everywhere. Thankfully so, because if everyone could speak English, I would be out of a job. I just feel like we're wasting a lot of time that could be spent in thoughtful discourse arguing over what you "actually meant" vs. "what you wrote". One of the more difficult parts for any new speaker of any languages is dealing with more advanced or native speakers' more advanced knowledge of synonyms and antonyms and such, when maybe, you only know one word for "bad", when the average American/Brit might have 2-3 dozen different ways of expressing the concept of "bad". <-Just an example BTW.

Don't feel bad dude and I'm not trying to single you out, it just seems like your insufficient capacity for communicating with some of us and accurately expressing your ideas is typical of folks who are moderately-well-learned speakers, but who are still lacking that extra flavor and ease of expression that comes with being an actual fluent speaker. Believe me, there's a Kurdish guy having the same conversation about my shitty Kurdish/Persian, so in that way, we're equals.

 

[honeywhite]

Honeywhite, for the sake of the forums, are you fucking with me? If you've just been trying to get a rise, I am willing to admit you've gone about it in an extremely effective way, especially if you're at all familiar with the lengths I will go to when trying to reach a definitive answer to issues such as this. If this is the case, Kudos to you. Only mini-kudos though, I'm afraid, as if this is the case, for the sake of humor, you've probably caused undue disruption to the HR capacity of BDD and Bluelight in general.

So, literally, if you're latest post is called #4, please count backward until you reach post #1. In, post #1 as we're calling it for reference purposes, you distinctly say that what you suffer from is not anxiety, but is in fact, a two day form of panic disorder.

This is literally, verbatim, what you just said, yourself, literally, yesterday:

"Think of it as panic disorder over two days and you'll understand---after that I'm back to normal."

And then, you say "I never said I skip days", when a week is indeed just a quick way of referring to groups of 5-7 days depending upon the scenario in which the term is being used. So, again, (we had a similar issue with argument earlier), when you say "I don't skip days, I skip weeks", you're really just saying that you are skipping multiple days at a time or in a plural sense.

I'm being totally serious that I think you might be experiencing some blackouts dude, because over the course of the past few days that this thread has been open, you've made pretty clear statements regarding your beliefs and opinions, only to claim that said beliefs and/or opinions are actually not held by you and that you have, indeed, never said them. For the love of Noah and his sons', one of whom, as a pillar of Jewish folklore, is in fact named Ham, can you please enlighten me as to what the hell is going on?

Honeywhite, this is totally fine, as we have a lot of international members populating our community, but if English is not your first language, their is utterly no shame in doing so. I understand you're in the UK, but their are non-native speakers there, just as there are everywhere. Thankfully so, because if everyone could speak English, I would be out of a job. I just feel like we're wasting a lot of time that could be spent in thoughtful discourse arguing over what you "actually meant" vs. "what you wrote". One of the more difficult parts for any new speaker of any languages is dealing with more advanced or native speakers' more advanced knowledge of synonyms and antonyms and such, when maybe, you only know one word for "bad", when the average American/Brit might have 2-3 dozen different ways of expressing the concept of "bad". <-Just an example BTW.

Don't feel bad dude and I'm not trying to single you out, it just seems like your insufficient capacity for communicating with some of us and accurately expressing your ideas is typical of folks who are moderately-well-learned speakers, but who are still lacking that extra flavor and ease of expression that comes with being an actual fluent speaker. Believe me, there's a Kurdish guy having the same conversation about my shitty Kurdish/Persian, so in that way, we're equals.

No, English is indeed my first language, but I've had people say I can't communicate too effectively in writing; it tends to be too full of legalese or Latin, take your pick. Some people just don't read every word though - not saying you don't - and misunderstandings pop up that way. The skipping days, for example - I have read up on phenobarbitone extensively and know its action extends to 4-5 days in decent metabolisers. I wanted to make ABSOLUTELY CLEAR I was skipping longer than that, in some cases much longer,
so you'd know the action of today's dose (for example) didn't overlap with the action of the last one.

I actually had difficulty understanding you - so the feeling is mutual. I apologised four times for the drunken driving, or rather barbitoned driving, and you either did not see it or chose not to see it. I believe I said "2-3 day nail-bite-a-thons" as a sort of slangy way to describe what I felt. I didn't (at least I don't see one) use a psychiatric diagnosis because I don't really think one exists. The neuropsych (back when I saw a neuropsych in Canada) used Anxiety Disorder Not Otherwise Specified as the insurance code. I also didn't say my 2-3 day long episodes WERE panic attacks. I was saying you could think of them, roughly, in that way. Both in post No. 4 and post No. 1. Situational episodes of stress is what I heard from the psychiatrist. He seemed to like Librium and Valium, then Biphetamine to wake me up the following day. The Biphetamine was shortly replaced by Desoxyn or Methedrine (I forget which but it's fundamentally the same tablet). To this was added Marinol for pain, Subutex and subsequently Dilaudid also for pain. Oh Topamax also.

I didn't like the Biphetamine or Desoxyn. Both dried my mouth out something terrible, and it wasn't like morphine. The Desoxyn, don't get me wrong, felt good - it had a mood-lifting effect, but I wouldn't use it as even a third-line antidepressant for those who had it bad.

If I had become a neurologist rather than studying contract law, I'd have never, EVER given out the topiramate. That stuff should have been pulled years ago.

Oh, jeez, forgot about the Mandrax reference - that's an alternative but not such a good one. Yes, mandies make you randy - but then sleepy! For reference, active drug in Mandrax is methaqualone. Not TOO popular in Canada, but available.

I have forgetfulness issues yes but not after so long a time (short term memory is shot per TBI). The reason I emphasised that it's weeks rather than days we're talking about is because of pheno's immensely long half-life. I think it's somewhere 'round 118 hours for the poor metabolisers. I wanted to sort of ensure that you knew the last dose was out of my system; some people who take Valium for the same reason I take pheno do it once every other day or thereabouts.

As for the reference to Scripture: the others were Shem and Japheth. Don't ever take me for an idiot - I'm not one.

 

[honeywhite]

I took 25mg of my old Librium capsules yesterday in desperation. Out like a light.

 

[Keif' Richards]

Honeywhite, this thread has really been hijacked into what I'm trying to make into a crash-course for you in how to utilize and communicate in the forums.

I don't take you for an idiot, but you unfortunately just highlighted one of my main points in that you're posting information as fact without actually doing adequate research to back your claims.

As for the reference to Scripture: the others were Shem and Japheth. Don't ever take me for an idiot - I'm not one.

...According to the Torah (the first five books of the Christian/Judaic old testament, Noah indeed had four (4) sons. So, in a really painful way, you've illustrated everything that I've been trying to indicate throughout the thread. If you had done a brief Google search, you would be greeted with names and pictures of Noah's 4 sons Ham, Yam, Shem and Japheth. My joke about Noah, was just that, a joke, but it's illustrated some of the issues we've had in this thread with maybe, pulling the trigger before we fully understand what we're talking about.

Can we start by maybe, just maybe, having you admit that you're incorrect with some of the information you're providing? It's important to start learning about this stuff now so you can grow into an effective member of the community. We all started from somewhere.

I don't understand what you mean by "legalese" and "latin". You've used a couple of latin phrases that I think most English speakers understand and there hasn't really been anything related to Legality or the Law contained within these threads. I'm talking about specific issues with the factual nature of your statements and my confusion is drawn from the fact that you say things and then immediately contradict yourself or when information is found to be blatantly untrue, you claim you simply "meant something else".

If you can't admit that you've made mistakes and be a big man about it, I really don't see the point in continuing this.

 

[honeywhite]

Honeywhite, this thread has really been hijacked into what I'm trying to make into a crash-course for you in how to utilize and communicate in the forums.

I don't take you for an idiot, but you unfortunately just highlighted one of my main points in that you're posting information as fact without actually doing adequate research to back your claims.

As for the reference to Scripture: the others were Shem and Japheth. Don't ever take me for an idiot - I'm not one.

...According to the Torah (the first five books of the Christian/Judaic old testament, Noah indeed had four (4) sons. So, in a really painful way, you've illustrated everything that I've been trying to indicate throughout the thread. If you had done a brief Google search, you would be greeted with names and pictures of Noah's 4 sons Ham, Yam, Shem and Japheth. My joke about Noah, was just that, a joke, but it's illustrated some of the issues we've had in this thread with maybe, pulling the trigger before we fully understand what we're talking about.

Can we start by maybe, just maybe, having you admit that you're incorrect with some of the information you're providing? It's important to start learning about this stuff now so you can grow into an effective member of the community. We all started from somewhere.

I don't understand what you mean by "legalese" and "latin". You've used a couple of latin phrases that I think most English speakers understand and there hasn't really been anything related to Legality or the Law contained within these threads. I'm talking about specific issues with the factual nature of your statements and my confusion is drawn from the fact that you say things and then immediately contradict yourself or when information is found to be blatantly untrue, you claim you simply "meant something else".

If you can't admit that you've made mistakes and be a big man about it, I really don't see the point in continuing this.

Whoops. My bad. Sorry, just steadily mounting frustration and yes, tons of incautious mistakes. Yes, that was an apology, and yes, 4 year old Librium is still apparently effective.

But back to the barbiturate under discussion - got any clues as to what works similarly well, if we discard barbs as a class? I've heard Miltown has "identical" effects but I'm hesitant to believe it. If barbs are barbs and benzos are benzos (although alcohol has subjective effects like a barb) - Miltown might be different.

 

[Keif' Richards]

This aint personal man. When I said, admit that you've made mistakes, I meant, literally let the community know that what you said was incorrect regarding your opinion/views of certain drugs. I have nothing personal against you. It's purely about the forums. You're kind of avoiding responsibility for some of the statements you've made before finally "apologizing" as if you've been persecuted in the most heinous way and sarcastically acting like we're just a bunch of bullies and we're out to get you.

"my fault, my fault, my egregious fault"

You're acting like I am really, really after you when all I want is for you not to post misinformation. It's considered a pretty common trait of passive aggression to say things like "fuck, I said I was sorry okay you prick?" It's passive aggressive, because as we've seen here, you have the ability to "apologize" with intense disdain and sarcasm being apparent, but still being able to claim that you did, indeed, apologize.

Let's just not do this sort of thing anymore. We are supposed to be on the same team you know and all I've tried to do hear is educate you about some of the drugs that you're using. I know that you had once thought about becoming a doctor, but that doesn't make you infallible and it sucks, but a lot of the information you've posted that might fall within the sphere of Neurology has been debatable, written in a factually ambiguous or just incorrect. I admitted that I was upset with you over the intoxicated driving, but the rest has been anything but personal. I want you to learn about the substances you're using and to understand them in a more scientific way. That's what Bluelight is for.

I say it's not personal, but I care a lot about the forums. Before I joined Bluelight and even started moderating, I learned a lot of my basic knowledge from these forums. So, when I say "it's not personal", if I'm truly considering what the forums mean to me, it is a bit personal when folks decide to post information as fact without actually knowing for certain. It's not always a life-threatening thing, but misinformation can be deadly when talking about things like Barbiturates.

 

[honeywhite]

This aint personal man. When I said, admit that you've made mistakes, I meant, literally let the community know that what you said was incorrect regarding your opinion/views of certain drugs. I have nothing personal against you. It's purely about the forums. You're kind of avoiding responsibility for some of the statements you've made before finally "apologizing" as if you've been persecuted in the most heinous way and sarcastically acting like we're just a bunch of bullies and we're out to get you.

"my fault, my fault, my egregious fault"

You're acting like I am really, really after you when all I want is for you not to post misinformation. It's considered a pretty common trait of passive aggression to say things like "fuck, I said I was sorry okay you prick?" It's passive aggressive, because as we've seen here, you have the ability to "apologize" with intense disdain and sarcasm being apparent, but still being able to claim that you did, indeed, apologize.

Let's just not do this sort of thing anymore. We are supposed to be on the same team you know and all I've tried to do hear is educate you about some of the drugs that you're using. I know that you had once thought about becoming a doctor, but that doesn't make you infallible and it sucks, but a lot of the information you've posted that might fall within the sphere of Neurology has been debatable, written in a factually ambiguous or just incorrect. I admitted that I was upset with you over the intoxicated driving, but the rest has been anything but personal. I want you to learn about the substances you're using and to understand them in a more scientific way. That's what Bluelight is for.

I say it's not personal, but I care a lot about the forums. Before I joined Bluelight and even started moderating, I learned a lot of my basic knowledge from these forums. So, when I say "it's not personal", if I'm truly considering what the forums mean to me, it is a bit personal when folks decide to post information as fact without actually knowing for certain. It's not always a life-threatening thing, but misinformation can be deadly when talking about things like Barbiturates.

Who said I took it as personal? Course I'm not infallible even though my catchphrase might be "Perfect - just like me". I don't like misinformation either. If I spread it, it's most likely because I heard it somewhere, misinterpreted it, or whatever. I said - sorry, my bad. That was not sarcasm. That was genuine contrition. (!) tends to be my notation for sarcasm.

BTW, I never said "fuck" or "you prick", certainly not in that context. The my egregious fault IS a sarcastic take on the Catholic Mass but purely out of humour, since I say "mea maxima culpa" rather often and it's the literal translation of that.

As for answering my question, though... how DOES meprobamate compare to the barbiturate class?

 

[cdin]

i'm very interested in the corosprodol/meprobomate angle as well. I have found I really enjoy the effects of a few somas every couple of years and have always wondered about it's effects re meprobomate and other barbs. For previous poster: All these are for sure more dangerous than our current class gaba drugs. just no way about it, sadly. ;(

 

[Scrofula]

I had a British postdoc friend whose late father was a pharmacist (or "chemist" or whatever you call them in Not-America). He had stories that in my mind conjured some Victorian leather medicine bag, filled with glass vials and ampules and non-plastic syringes (the kind you re-use, IOW). My friend spent a few teenage years going through those effects and testing expiration dates (when available). Probably had a 1978 PDR or Merck too. This guy was also the best source of drugs.

I'm not a shrink, obviously, but I'd bet they'd agree, if a drug has a slang term from the 1970's (meprobamate = Miltown), it is probably no longer used, and there are much better treatments available.

Carbamates are sedating anti-seizure meds. Librium is one of them, which I didn't find sedating at all (when given to me in-patient rehab). It's not a treatment for anxiety.

And that's why it's best if you see a genuine psychiatrist. She can explain the nuances of anxiety and recommend treatments, that might not even involve drugs. She could certainly help explain the differences in drugs developed in the last quarter century.

 

[Keif' Richards]

Honeywhite, in regard to your question about Meprobamate (Miltown, Equanil) and how it relates to the Barbiturates that you're accustomed to:

Meprobamate was a highly popular sedative back in its heyday and is actually known as one of the original "blockbuster" drugs in terms of the rate of prescriptions per capita and raw financial intake from its sale. Part of why it became so popular has to do with the timeline of things. Barbiturates have been in medical use since Barbital (Veronal) itself was marketed in the early 1900's. At this time, there really weren't a lot of reliable and effective sedatives on the market. There were Opiates, Ethanol, Chloral Hydrate, but limited options in general when compared to the plethora that we have today. When Barbiturates first hit the market, they were seen as (and actually were) a major improvement over the majority of available options at the time.

Of course, just like with many drugs before it, within a few decades, alarm bells were beginning to sound softly regarding the various dangers of Barbiturates, although manufacture and prescription didn't really hit a wall until Benzodiazepines hit the scene, but anyway. Meprobamate was marketed as a "minor tranquilizer" i.e. not as dangerous and/or addictive than the well-known Barbiturates. Meprobabmate was in fact marketed as a "non-Barbiturate" sedative, emphasizing how different and safer it was. It only took a couple of decades of rampant prescription before the obvious conclusion was drawn that there was little difference in terms of addictive potential or relative danger between the non-Barbiturates and Barbiturates themselves. As a side-note, Methaqualone (Quaalude/Mandrax) was also marketed as a (seemingly) safer sedative compared to the Barbiturates, which were rapidly acquiring a bad name.

The non-Barbiturates sort of carried the torch through the intermission that was the demonizing of the Barbiturates prior to the mass-introduction of the Benzodiazepines. They were marketed as safer and less addictive, but in reality were at least as dangerous or even more so. Methaqualone is actually notoriously toxic relative to dose especially when combined with Alcohol. So, really, the non-Barbiturates offered little advantage over the Barbiturates themselves, unless of course you were the ones marketing the former.

Just like Barbiturates themselves, non-Barbiturates were rapidly shelved and forgotten once Benzodiazepines became commonly prescribed. Benzodiazepines can still be quite dangerous and addictive, but are significantly less dangerous than the aforementioned classes. It's actually quite difficult to die by single-drug-intoxication with Benzodiazepines.

TL;DR?

The non-Barbiturates possess virtually all of the qualities of the Barbiturate class with all of the negatives and positives that come with it. Death by overdose is possible and combining with other CNS depressants is extremely risky. Meprobamate and Methaqualone both will possess a certain different "character" than what you are used to, but not in a manner that I feel would make them worth pursuing in a meaningful way. It's worth noting also, that your dosing schedule would need to be radically adjusted as Meprobamate has a much shorter half-life and duration of effect than Phenobarbital typically does.

With all of this information in hand, it's worth noting that the primary form in which Meprobamate is prescribed these days is in the form of the Meprobamate pro-drug, Carisoprodol (Soma), which, as I have implied, is metabolized into Meprobamate in vivo. I don't think any are worth your time or would provide any kind of truly significant benefit over the Phenobarbital, but this is just my opinion.

I agree with a point that Scrofula sort of touched on, in that whatever happens, I don't think that the regimen you're currently involved in is going to be indefinitely sustainable. However it ended up this way, you have developed a fairly heft tolerance to Barbiturates and what sounds like various other drugs including Amphetamines and Opioid analgesics. I think that all of the listed drugs can and are highly effective when used properly, but it sounds like you have trouble using them properly.

This isn't coming from a position of judgement, ethically or personally. It sounds like you deal with some pretty profound anxiety/panic and when you self-medicate with the drugs that you are, actually maintaining their positive benefits over any extended period of time, tends to be quite elusive. Part of what aids people in using these drugs significantly over chronic periods of time, is by not partaking in irresponsible behaviors like binging and strictly following doctors' orders

Even if you are still receiving the benefit you want from these drugs, you need to be aware that part of what makes these drugs ineffective for long-term use is that their effectiveness wanes. You are on a fairly powerful cocktail right now and when the positive effects begin to wane, you will be confronted with an anxiety far worse than what you're used to. I know you don't feel that you're addicted to or dependent upon any drugs, but you should really take an honest look at yourself and how much you require these drugs to function properly.

I'm not saying I have the answers, but these are questions you need to be asking yourself before shit hits the fan.

 

[honeywhite]

I agree with a point that Scrofula sort of touched on, in that whatever happens, I don't think that the regimen you're currently involved in is going to be indefinitely sustainable. However it ended up this way, you have developed a fairly heft tolerance to Barbiturates and what sounds like various other drugs including Amphetamines and Opioid analgesics. I think that all of the listed drugs can and are highly effective when used properly, but it sounds like you have trouble using them properly.

This isn't coming from a position of judgement, ethically or personally. It sounds like you deal with some pretty profound anxiety/panic and when you self-medicate with the drugs that you are, actually maintaining their positive benefits over any extended period of time, tends to be quite elusive. Part of what aids people in using these drugs significantly over chronic periods of time, is by not partaking in irresponsible behaviors like binging and strictly following doctors' orders

Even if you are still receiving the benefit you want from these drugs, you need to be aware that part of what makes these drugs ineffective for long-term use is that their effectiveness wanes. You are on a fairly powerful cocktail right now and when the positive effects begin to wane, you will be confronted with an anxiety far worse than what you're used to. I know you don't feel that you're addicted to or dependent upon any drugs, but you should really take an honest look at yourself and how much you require these drugs to function properly.

I'm not saying I have the answers, but these are questions you need to be asking yourself before shit hits the fan.

Actually, I think you just answered me right there. I am in fact dependent (but not, perhaps, addicted to) opiates. The dose certainly doesn't climb. If I quit, I get the predictable toilet troubles. Then there's the Modafinil to be taken in the morning for energy, and optionally pheno for anxiety. It's not sustainable in the long run - figured as much - and I don't honestly know what next.

The amphetamines (and I do believe Desoxyn is an amphetamine of some sort, liSDEXamphetamine perhaps?) were of historical interest only - I spoke in the past tense; my neuropsych went into retirement a few years ago and, being a world traveller, I never bothered to get a new one.

Yes, barb binges are something with which I'm quite familiar - since they're essentially ethanol made solid and I otherwise drink a bottle of champagne with my nightly pizza, I can see where this is going. I certainly don't want to end up on my bed with my chest not moving, but I want to maintain productivity at least through uni. I mean, in my opinion, taking exactly as prescribed (three tablets only, as and when needed, for nerves) will work in this regard; I made a big mistake taking 1000-1200mg like that---it was a lack of patience for the medicine to work (it always does) and sound judgement (I took the dose that killed Judy Garland - what was I thinking?!).

Miltown isn't a slang name; it's a brand name, copyright by some company or other (Ranbaxy?), like Heroin, Depotrone, Subutex, Phenemal, Nembutal, or Nuvigil. I think it came from the name of a city actually!

 

[Scrofula]

Well how about that: Wallace Pharmaceuticals did indeed trademark meprobamate as Miltown™. Why they would choose to name a drug after a New Jersey neighborhood, I have no idea. Yes, I know there are quite a few pharma companies with NJ HQ's, including my alma mater (which has two), but that's not really a selling point.

(On that topic, yes, Desoxyn is Rx methamphetamine, sole use for weight loss; lisdexamphetamine is a pro-drug for amphetamine, trade-named Vyvanse.)

Glad to see what sounds like recognition of a festering dependence, OP. It may not cause you suffering yet, but that's the only place the current path will lead. That's also not judgment, since I myself seem to somehow prefer the roads most suffered. Barbiturates and opiates are def. not a path of productivity.

Find yourself a proper psychiatrist, who can provide treatment you can keep separate from recreation. That's probably key to therapy--have fun with the occasional mind-altering drug, just not the one your shrink prescribes for you to function.



Bonus: so it's been mentioned that meprobamate is a metabolite of carisoprodol, tradename Soma. I always thought that name was stupid for "just a muscle relaxer" cause it obviously came from Brave New World. But apparently Aldous Huxley gave some speech about the new blockbuster drug and human consciousness at a conference about it. So in fact, it is Soma, sort of. \

Anyway, I've taken Soma and didn't notice anything. Same with any muscle relaxer. Or benzos, for that matter. Yet I'm a drunk. Who knows? Let's all go live in caves and let the tourists ogle our primitive existence.

 

[honeywhite]

Glad to see what sounds like recognition of a festering dependence, OP. It may not cause you suffering yet, but that's the only place the current path will lead. That's also not judgment, since I myself seem to somehow prefer the roads most suffered. Barbiturates and opiates are def. not a path of productivity.

Ten years I've been on opiates. It's always been the 40mgm. morphine or the 1/8 gr. hydromorphone. I'd be bedridden without them (car crash) and crazy without some sort of anxiolytic. I know I'm physically dependent on the opiates, not so much on the barbs.

Funny. Benzos don't do anything for you, knock me out cold. Barbs do "barely" anything to me (I am NOT talking just Pheno!) and you've floated off into blissful nothingness.

Desoxyn and Drinamyl are used here also for attention-deficit disorder and "for energy" (the former) and as the most rudimentary possible antidepressant (the latter). I don't like to think that for a few years in my youth I was on meth.

 

[honeywhite]

Well how about that: Wallace Pharmaceuticals did indeed trademark meprobamate as Miltown™. Why they would choose to name a drug after a New Jersey neighborhood, I have no idea. Yes, I know there are quite a few pharma companies with NJ HQ's, including my alma mater (which has two), but that's not really a selling point.

Well, if I ever assist in developing some kind of pharmaceutical, I'll call it Durham. Or Scarborough. Or London. Because why the fuck not, that's why. As for Miltown, rest in peace. The EU has discontinued it as of 2013 - the note still appears in the 2017 NHS Manual.