Opioids Kratom Mega Thread v. 5

[Slow_Mobius]

Dude, I Don't care.
Back to my statement:
There is certainty that kratom only partially covers WD- the worst parts: suicidal-ideation, and RLS are relieved; But there is still some WD symptoms that are still not covered by kratom. And kratom has no drug-effects alone, even at large doses, so a ban would simply increase Suicidal-ideation and violent, malevolent behavior in opiate addicted patients- instead of providing availability of some partially-acting, unpalatable-weak, benign drug that is actually helping people reduce suicidal urges and increase function, to no ill affect.

I think it's a bit naive to say that kratom has no drug effects alone and that there are no ill effects. People have died from ODs combining kratom with substances that do not mix well. It's incredibly safe, but it certainly carries some risks that people should be aware of.

 

[mike.vick]

I think it's a bit naive to say that kratom has no drug effects alone and that there are no ill effects. People have died from ODs combining kratom with substances that do not mix well. It's incredibly safe, but it certainly carries some risks that people should be aware of.

Pure kratom alkaloid extraxts, 60 times stronger than kratom powder, has no fatal eeffects in mice, much more than a human can intake. And Every drug overdose that has kratom in the toxicology, has a fatal dose of something else.

Kratom powder is at least 1,000,000,000,000,000 x safer than table salt, by weight.

 

[LucidSDreamr]

Can anyone comment on the danger of bombing kratom? This is how I take it...putting like .75 g into a piece of toilet paper twisting off the end and swalling. I have almost choked on them when I tried too big of a bomb, but the bomb is so soft that it explodes and i can swallow it eventually.

but i am worried i will choke for real one day. gel caps would be best but I run out of them sometimes and have to do the bombs

 

[LucidSDreamr]

Dude, I Don't care.
Back to my statement:
There is certainty that kratom only partially covers WD- the worst parts: suicidal-ideation, and RLS are relieved; But there is still some WD symptoms that are still not covered by kratom. And kratom has no drug-effects alone, even at large doses, so a ban would simply increase Suicidal-ideation and violent, malevolent behavior in opiate addicted patients- instead of providing availability of some partially-acting, unpalatable-weak, benign drug that is actually helping people reduce suicidal urges and increase function, to no ill affect.

if you are hooked on oxy or fent....yes kratom will have no drug effects. But when i had been clean for 5 months and tried kratom it was as strong as heroin at 20g in an opiate naive person

 

[MDPV_Psychosis]

I agree. For the user with no tolerance, kratom can be a decent narcotic.

Mike.vike, you said for you kratom does not alleviate all wd symptoms. I've found this to be true only when tolerance is high enough. For somebody with high tolerance that wants to switch to kratom, they must endure some withdrawals sneaking through for a few days until the body/mind adjusts to only kratom.

 

[mike.vick]

But when i had been clean for 5 months and tried kratom it was as strong as heroin at 20g in an opiate naive person

I tried kratom as an opiate-intollerant person for the first time like 5 years ago, I had zero effects from 28grams except mild fatigue - But I got dried leaf not powder because I didn't know what I was doin'.

But Yeah, I'd say for when I've done kratom has partial attenuation, on the level of 350:1 kratom-powder:morphine analgesia ratio, as mention in the above study (maybe 1pg back).
Testerday I was consuming 7-12 grams at a time, on a hot-dog-style-folded peice-of-paper, The only relief I had was not obsessing with suicide that heroin WD normally haunts you with, and an 70%-80% ability to function. A LIFE-SAVER, but no drug to me, a benign tea-like herb.

Thank god I just got 20 tramadols and some klonpin- where I can get a 3:1 o-Desmethyltramadol:morphine equivalance - MUCH more soothing at opiating than kratom could ever possibly be.

The previous study mentions feed 200mg/kg-1g/kg oral near pure kratom alkaloids to mice, and all they have is some tiredness, no fatalities.

 

[Slow_Mobius]

I don't think it's good HR to tell people that it doesn't have drug effects alone. That simply isn't true because it's a partial agonist at opioid receptors.

I agree that it's a very safe herb, but I'm certain there could be negative side effects if you were to combine it with the wrong substance, and not every report of kratom overdose was associated with lethal doses of other drugs. Plenty of users report negative effects at high doses, albeit they're typically opioid naive

 

[mike.vick]

Can anyone comment on the danger of bombing kratom? This is how I take it...putting like .75 g into a piece of toilet paper twisting off the end and swalling. I have almost choked on them when I tried too big of a bomb, but the bomb is so soft that it explodes and i can swallow it eventually.

but i am worried i will choke for real one day. gel caps would be best but I run out of them sometimes and have to do the bombs

Just get choclate milk, put 7 grams of kratom (or w/e the dose, I can't do more than ~12g at a time) and then hold a small sip of choclate milk, enough to cover the back of your throat when you tild your head up, and then dump the kratom quickly in your mouth quickly followed by more choclate milk as you swallow, and keep doing that and eventually swishing around till you rinse it all of the powder stuck underneeth of your teeth.

.75g won't really do shit at all, and bombing has the slight risk of clogging your system or choking I guess, so I would only bomb something 1-2 a year, and only like ecstacy. But I have empty pills now, they are only <snip> for 250 at <snip>, gel caps, <snip> for the veggie caps. Our on <snip>, <snip> for 500-1000 caps.

 

[mike.vick]

I don't think it's good HR to tell people that it doesn't have drug effects alone. That simply isn't true because it's a partial agonist at opioid receptors. I agree that it's a very safe herb, but I'm certain there could be negative side effects if you were to combine it with the wrong substance, and not every report of kratom overdose was associated with lethal doses of other drugs. Plenty of users report negative effects at high doses, albeit they're typically opioid naive

I am giving my honest assesment of the benign substance. It would exhaust you from taking this drug, and be to slow to metabolize, to be fatal. It's like the girl who got GHB banned because she was the first "ghb death" but turns out later- she just had an unrelated heart attack. Albeit GHB is a far far far more dangerous, low therapeutic range, and an actual drug instead of a benign herb/ tea - the point is there are incorrect death reports, and even with that - kratom alone was blamed for none of the deaths
.
At a 350:1 equanalgesic-ratio of kratom-powder compared to morphine, It is similar in analgesia to ibuprofen at 400:1 ratio compared to morphine....

Except Ibuprofen has a listed/ calculatable LD50 and instances of recorded death from ibuprofen-alone overdoses.

 

[Slow_Mobius]

I am giving my honest assesment of the benign substance. It would exhaust you from taking this drug, and be to slow to metabolize, to be fatal. It's like the girl who got GHB banned because she was the first "ghb death" but turns out later- she just had an unrelated heart attack. Albeit GHB is a far far far more dangerous, low therapeutic range, and an actual drug instead of a benign herb/ tea - the point is there are incorrect death reports, and even with that - kratom alone was blamed for none of the deaths
.
At a 350:1 equanalgesic-ratio of kratom-powder compared to morphine, It is similar in analgesia to ibuprofen at 400:1 ratio compared to morphine....

Except Ibuprofen has a listed/ calculatable LD50 and instances of recorded death from ibuprofen-alone overdoses.

Toxicity is all about dose. Kratom appears to have a high therapeutic index, but I it will kill you at a high enough dose.

You're right that no deaths have been directly implicated on kratom alone. There was one death where a guy died from taking kratom and modafinil. It's not clear if opioid WD was also playing a factor, but after personally trying the combination myself, I wouldn't be surprised if it was a bad interaction. There was some very strong and unpleasant synergy.

I totally agree with you on kratom's safety. I just think we should acknowledge that it's an opioid and that it should be used with some caution. I mean, even cannabis can be dangerous when it's mixed with the wrong drugs and the wrong disorders.

 

[mike.vick]

Toxicity is all about dose. Kratom appears to have a high therapeutic index, but I it will kill you at a high enough dose.

You're right that no deaths have been directly implicated on kratom alone. There was one death where a guy died from taking kratom and modafinil. It's not clear if opioid WD was also playing a factor, but after personally trying the combination myself, I wouldn't be surprised if it was a bad interaction. There was some very strong and unpleasant synergy.

I totally agree with you on kratom's safety. I just think we should acknowledge that it's an opioid and that it should be used with some caution. I mean, even cannabis can be dangerous when it's mixed with the wrong drugs and the wrong disorders.

There are lab studies (one I posted 1pg back) that try and kill mice with pure alkaloids and cannot do it. It's safe to say that kratom has a therapeutic index of around marijuana and shrooms - basically, it would be unpalatable - and if you were to die you would likely die from the physical affect of to much plant matter in but not a drug affect. It really is not drug in any sense of the word more of a benign herbal tea w/o any affects besides attenuating suicidal-ideation in opiate-dependent subjects, and partially RLS.
Weed is also benign, contrary to your statement, and has non-fatal/ toxic ability like kratom.

 

[Slow_Mobius]

Both drugs have a large therapeutic index alone. With certain other drugs, that can easily change.

 

[mike.vick]

Both drugs have a large therapeutic index alone. With certain other drugs, that can easily change.

It's the other drugs, I have seen no potential fatal combinations in which cannabis or kratom could play a part, as a contraindication, with another substances lethality.

 

[Mycophile]

Dude, I Don't care.
Back to my statement:
There is certainty that kratom only partially covers WD- the worst parts: suicidal-ideation, and RLS are relieved; But there is still some WD symptoms that are still not covered by kratom. And kratom has no drug-effects alone, even at large doses, so a ban would simply increase Suicidal-ideation and violent, malevolent behavior in opiate addicted patients- instead of providing availability of some partially-acting, unpalatable-weak, benign drug that is actually helping people reduce suicidal urges and increase function, to no ill affect.

I accept your apology LOL.

 

[Mycophile]

My 2 cents: (really TWO, trying to practice keeping my posts shorter now lol…)

This whole (POSSIBLE) ban is making people SUPER sensitive about what they say or don’t say about Kratom for fear that the evil DEA is watching.

And while they are, (to some extent) lets not pretend what we say here matters that much to them.

They’ll make any decision they want IF they can, regardless of the complete lack of “danger to the public”.

They’ve created such a scare in us HARMLESS herb users that we have to try to censor our speech, which puts harm reduction at risk because we feel we can’t talk about ANY single little negative effect a substance may have for fear of the DEA’s backlash.

SHAME ON YOU DEA.

We are not hurting anyone.

 

[Mycophile]

Also, for what it's worth: caffeine has been the single most destructive substance in my life, and there's not even an age limit or anywhere other than Mormon country where I've heard of it being opposed, and I feel the WD from caffeine and Kratom feel ALMOST identical minus the runny nose from Kratom and occasional mild RLS.

(I'm not kidding either, it's REALLY fucked with me worse than hard drugs, but i'm not gonna waste space listing why).

And guess what Kratom withdrawal AT IT'S WORST feels like to me?

EXACTLY like cold turkey caffeine WD, except caffiene WD is WAY worse cause I have like 18 years of relying on it daily and it's everywhere and ignored by the public as anything to take seriously.

While Kratom has never been much of an issue for me cause I was told to watch myself with it before I got into it (unlike caffeine).

Not much surprised they are related though, seeing as in a blind "WD test" (if such a thing exists) I wouldn't be able to tell for the first few days whether I'm withdrawing from Kratom or coffee, except Kratom WD lasts 3 days for me and caffeine withdrawal lasts like 2 weeks.

I've never successfully broken my caffeine addiction for long, but I've stopped Kratom on a whim for 90 days at a time.

Food for thought for the evil overlords.

And while it is not harmless, with the amount of Kratom I've taken I fully believe I could try to commit suicide via way of Kratom and I would be 100% unsuccessful 100 times out of 100, with my best chance of succeeding being by way of choking on it on the way down (which is really death by choking not Kratom lol).

 

[Snake_Eyes]

If you think the DEA is bad now just wait until Trump's goons are put in.

 

[Mycophile]

If you think the DEA is bad now just wait until Trump's goons are put in.

Oh god...

I'm glad I've got a fellow Trump hater here.

I'm not much into politics, but I fully believe that before all is said and done he could be the worst president we've ever had and I'm praying we don't see WW3.

The other day he answered a call from the Taiwanese president which I THINK I heard is the first time since 1972 the U.S. has talked with Taiwan's government for fear of China's backlash cause the two are on such bad terms and, you know, China is like the most powerful or at least biggest country in the world...

I bet Obama pulled Trump aside and said "listen, I have about 6 weeks to talk some sense into your dumb ass so DO NOT talk to countries we have decided not to involve ourselves with due to international conflict"...

Trump probably replied "F--You N--word!! I'll do whatever I want!!" LOL


I mean I don't think Hilary was the best, but how we elected Trump over her....god I just don't get it.

He's a fucking narcisist ego maniac con man snake oil salesman.

And yet half the people I know voted for him, claimed they want their "jobs back" but after Obama unemployment is the lowest it's been this century and will SURELY drop under Trump...

Well, lets not make this a political thread, the damage is already done...

 

[kleinerkiffer]

I don't think it's good HR to tell people that it doesn't have drug effects alone. That simply isn't true because it's a partial agonist at opioid receptors.

I agree that it's a very safe herb, but I'm certain there could be negative side effects if you were to combine it with the wrong substance, and not every report of kratom overdose was associated with lethal doses of other drugs. Plenty of users report negative effects at high doses, albeit they're typically opioid naive

Exactly
3g got me really high a few years ago, I was just laying in bed high as a kite
Taking too much, like 5g resulted in kratom fever and made me really dizzy etc.
While it's really hard/impossible to dose enough to kill you the side effects can be really nasty and it does get you high if you have no opioid tolerance

 

[Slow_Mobius]

It's the other drugs, I have seen no potential fatal combinations in which cannabis or kratom could play a part, as a contraindication, with another substances lethality.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3550469/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3670991/

Even if these adverse effects aren't fatal, they can be pretty damn serious and potentially fatal without prompt medical care.