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SWAT Team busts Utah rave; excessive force alleged (Merged)

CreativeRandom said:
I don't see what is so difficult to understand here people. This rave was illegal, and police would have to be completely stupid to think there would not be any guns or drugs here.

Check out this link for an update on the issue.
http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/showthread.php?postid=3434711#post3434711

I've merged your update thread into this thread, and amended the above link to point to it.
 
wow, i wasn't even aware of this news since i don't usually look in this forum

>>"police would have to be completely stupid to think there would not be any guns or drugs here."
this relates back to a small thread i started in DC about how the drug community hurts itself. drugs + guns and violence should not be associated with each other, but sadly they are and the following force was used at this rave regardless of whether or not it was necessary. until the image of the drug world gets cleaned up, law enforcement and the general public will have this drugs+violence view and wherever drugs are involved they will come in with guns drawn

something i don't understand is why they keep targeting 'raves'. there is drug use at other types of concerts and parties.
i guess this type of struggle between opposing forces has been going on all the time, like jazz back in the day...the drugs, "hedonism", corruption of the youth. cycles...
 
There’s something telling, too, about the fact that the Sheriff’s Office learned at noon that day where the rave would commence, but waited more than two hours into the music—until 11:30 p.m.—to make 60 arrests and demand the area be cleared. Much was made of one young raver who “overdosed on ecstasy,” and then was released to her parents. If disaster was so imminent, and warranted 90 men in uniform, why wasn’t the rave politely stopped before it started? Perhaps because the spectacle of an outdoor event, like a rave itself, is a lot more fun than sitting at home.

Good question, eh?

source
 
Thank you Skyline_GTR.

sierra, you know what. I 100% agree with you. Wholeheartedly. There are just so many fucking retards who go to raves!

Uh... no this is not an issue of social injustice and excessive force. You are making complete out the ass comments here. THIS RAVE WAS ILLEGAL.

And was anyone hospitalized? Did anyone die? Anyone?

Okay then, shut up! I think that zero fatality and zero hospitalizations, on both the police force and the ravers, is miraculous. Especially in an event of thousands of people. I think, due to these numbers, one could say this was a case of extreme un-brutality! Please people, stop talking with heated up emotion and pleas be more analytical about something that you were not there for. The media twists things both ways you know, its not hard to fathom that one of the reporters happens to be anti-police and such.

Yea, so Utah is conservative and mormon. Have you ever been there [ad hom removed]? Go there before you start speaking shit. I'm tired of idiots who bash something they have no knowledge about. SLC happens to be one of the best cities I have ever seen in all of America, and I've traveled quite a bit. The crime there is extremely low compared to anywhere else. The city is amazingly clean. The place is cheap to live. The community is tightly knit. Your like the blind man being a critic in a museum of art!

Oh, and by the way, Civil liberties is the number one issue in Utah. Unlike (excuse me for my blatant assumption here) the liberal places you prefer, Utah protects civil liberties by voting on issues. See, what I hate about liberals is that they can't get an issue on a local level (gay issues, abortion) they *unconstitutionally* try to circumvent the system and get it passed on a federal level, so everyone is forced with a decision that not everyone agrees upon. The point of having 50 different states in America is so each state can have it's specific laws and rules that appeal to it's people.

The issue is not about right or wrong, but the power to the people. The federal government is only to protect national security, enforce the constitution and U.S. Code, and make sure we have the same currency. I am disgusted that federal level politicians even mention gays, abortion, euthenasia, et cetera. It doesn't matter! Those issues are for each state to decide for itself! And liberals know that what they believe is not supported by the majority of their state, so they try to force it down everyone's throat by cheating the system! If abortion, stem cell, et cetera, is so popular, then why don't you vote on it?

Don't get me wrong, I am for abortion and such issues so popular with liberals. But I support freedom. And if that means I have to live with something I don't like, or I have to go to Tijuana for an abortion, that's fine with me.

Sorry if that may have seemed out of topic, but it was instigated by sierra's out of topic attack on Utah.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Daily Herald
3 September 2005

Link

List of those booked into jail after the rave

DAILY HERALD


Utah County Sheriff James Tracy has said most of the crowd left the Aug. 20 rave peacefully, and deputies only arrested those who actively resisted. Witnesses have said "soldiers" and SWAT members held "AK-47s" to partygoers' heads, punched girls in the face and unleashed an arsenal of everything from attack dogs to tear gas.


Police issued at least 43 citations and arrested at least 60 people at the event for alleged offenses, including weapons violations, DUIs, illegal underage consumption of alcohol and possession of marijuana, cocaine, methamphetamine and ecstasy. Arrests also were made for resisting arrest, assault on a police officer and disorderly conduct.

"The sheriff did what he thought was appropriate under the law," County Commission Jerry Grover said. "The county attorney was aware of what he was doing."

County Commissioner Steve White said, "Regardless of the ordinance on the time limits or anything, that's not why we went in and busted the rave party." He said the main concern was drugs, alcohol being served to minors and other illegal conduct -- none of which is made legal by a permit.

And County Commissioner Larry Ellertson said, "I'm sad to think that they think they can have people come and break the law and not have the sheriff come in on them."

This is a list of people booked into the Utah County Jail between approximately 12:45 a.m. and 3 a.m. Aug. 21, arrested by the Utah County Sheriff's Office, the Utah County Major Crimes unit and other law enforcement agencies.

Trudy Childs, 51, Spanish Fork: Two counts of contributing to the delinquency of a minor, allowing a mass gathering without a permit.

Joseph M. Galieti, 28, Salt Lake City: Possession of cocaine, possession of drug paraphernalia.

Hannah Jane Matherne, 19, Kaysville: Distribution of ecstasy, possession of drug paraphernalia.

Cody Bernell Childs, 25, Spanish Fork: DUI, possession of firearm by a restricted person, holding a mass gathering without a permit, resisting arrest, contributing to the delinquency of a minor, failure to respond to officers' signal to stop.

Katherine Ruth Kalmar, 19, Salt Lake City: Illegal consumption, possession of Xanax, possession of Lortab.

Chad R. Goodwin, 18, Bountiful: Possession of marijuana.

Alexander Maxwell Calder, 22, Salt Lake City: Possession of a controlled substance.

Alaisha M. Matagi, 24, Salt Lake City: Failure to obey police, resisting arrest.

James Aaron Barell, 23, Sandy: Distribution of ecstasy.

Joey Rae Buck, 25, Stansbury Park: Assault by a prisoner, resisting arrest, disorderly conduct.

Jeffery Lonnie Coombs, 25, Salt Lake City: Disorderly conduct, seat belt violation, resisting arrest.

Joshua B. Norman, 18, Murray: Arranging to distribute ecstasy.

Scott Ryan Paswaters, 22, Salt Lake City: Public intoxication, failure to obey police.

John Lee McAdams Jr., 26, Draper: Possession of a controlled substance.

Jared Craig Richards, 25, Bountiful: Possession of a controlled substance.

Brandon Tyson Hughes, 22, Riverton: Distribution of ecstasy x 2.

Joshua Wylie, 20, Salt Lake City: Illegal consumption of alcohol, open container in vehicle.

Yancy R. Childs, 28, Mapleton: Contributing to the delinquency of a minor, allowing a mass gathering without a permit, possession of prescription drugs without a prescription.

Vaughn Patten Wright, 29, West Jordan: Contributing to the delinquency of a minor.

Michael Guy Carlin, 24, Clearfield: Disorderly conduct, resisting arrest.

Paul Maka, 26, Salt Lake City: Interfering with police, resisting arrest, failure to obey police.

Jessica L. Wirthlin, 25, Kearns: Failure to obey police, interfering with police.

This story appeared in The Daily Herald on page A4.
 

Oh creative, you are the one who needs to stfu. This was beyond reasonable force. You don't think so, we get it...you disgareee, but those on here think so and your endless rambling isn't goign to change that.

Hearing that gun cock on the and of that one video was sickening.
 
If shit like this continues to happen and nothing is done about it . . . I am scarred to think of what may be happening 20 years down the road.

-weez
 
Okay DarthMom. People possessing firearms illegally, people contributing to the delinquency of minors, people not listening to the police. That's all fine and dandy. We need to make sure less force is used!

What the hell are you trying to prove? It would be absolutely wonderful if less force was used. How the hell are we going to fix this problem? Can you offer a solution?

It's the end of the world! Some violent criminal who had a gun scraped his knee! Those cops are assholes for thinking for their safety first, and not of the potentially dangerous, possibly druged and unstable man who may have had, and actually did, possession of a firearm!

Come on people. If you are protesting the illegality of drugs, the intrusion of police on a mass gathering, the failure to recognize the right to assembly, then I would not have a problem. But using this event as an example to showcase police brutality? What the fuck? Police are always going to be rough. And obviously, a bust of this scale is going to rough up some elbows. Get over it.

MildKandy, I agree. Partially. We need to get the federal government's nose out of where it doesn't belong. The illegality of drugs is a state issue. However, if a state decides a drug should be illegal 20 years from now, and this issue repeats, then isn't really anything to do. If a state chooses to have a draconian police force and illegalize drugs, then they have the freedom to do so.

That's supposed to be the beauty of America. We have the freedom to make it great, or make it absolutely fucking suck.
 
damn creative u need ta calm the f--k down !! u sound like u might even be a cop the way u defend them !!!!!! umm who said that the person who posted brusies and wat not had a gun ?? u say utah is so great eh ?? so if u think this rave was so illegal and the cops had every right to bust then u must be a none drugg takin mofo ehh ?? why so self rightious ?? why u even on this message board ? ta defend cops and shit ?? even if it was illegal and there were drugs , why does that make it ok fer the pigs ta go off and treat the peeps the way they did ? come on now !! there was 2 guys who were murders from canada who got caught in us and they got warned before cops came in ta bust em and didnt get beat down !! wats worse ? murders or drug users ? and the fact that G.W bush was in town the next day makes it even more fishy !! f--k bush is a slimy scum suckin low ball piece off shit anti american fag !!!! but i bet u voted fer him HUH ?
wat ever
any thing u can reply back wont change my view and i wont even coment back ta anything u say cuz u sukk !!!
 
CreativeRandom said:
Okay DarthMom. People possessing firearms illegally, people contributing to the delinquency of minors, people not listening to the police. That's all fine and dandy. We need to make sure less force is used!

What the hell are you trying to prove? It would be absolutely wonderful if less force was used. How the hell are we going to fix this problem? Can you offer a solution?

It's the end of the world! Some violent criminal who had a gun scraped his knee! Those cops are assholes for thinking for their safety first, and not of the potentially dangerous, possibly druged and unstable man who may have had, and actually did, possession of a firearm!

Come on people. If you are protesting the illegality of drugs, the intrusion of police on a mass gathering, the failure to recognize the right to assembly, then I would not have a problem. But using this event as an example to showcase police brutality? What the fuck? Police are always going to be rough. And obviously, a bust of this scale is going to rough up some elbows. Get over it.

MildKandy, I agree. Partially. We need to get the federal government's nose out of where it doesn't belong. The illegality of drugs is a state issue. However, if a state decides a drug should be illegal 20 years from now, and this issue repeats, then isn't really anything to do. If a state chooses to have a draconian police force and illegalize drugs, then they have the freedom to do so.

That's supposed to be the beauty of America. We have the freedom to make it great, or make it absolutely fucking suck.

Whatever, officer.

You want to live in a world where the police are that violent, that is fine, but many of us don't and we will not shut up about this. The force claimed it was illegal, it was not, They claimed there were not injuries, there were. There was only ONE person found with a gun. Big whoop. and apparently it was the landowners son.

You do realize the promoters hired security to search people for drugs before they came in? They did everything to make sure this party was legit and safe. Your overzealousness is awfully strange and infinitely misguided in this thread.
 
It is this kind of shit that makes me hate the fucking pigs and the government. If the rave was illegal due to not having some stupid permit they should have arrested or fined the promoter and left everyone else alone. The people who attended the rave were not at fault. They thought that they were attending a legal event and then as they were enjoying themselves the fucking swine bursts in with their guns and tear gas, scaring and traumatizing the people for no good reason.

If the promoter failed to get the mass gathering permit then it should not have mattered anyway. Requiring permits for mass gathering violates the constitution and I hope somebody sues them over it. Maybe if they challenge the law in court they could get it overturned, but I doubt it.

Originally posted by CreativeRandom
We need to get the federal government's nose out of where it doesn't belong. The illegality of drugs is a state issue. However, if a state decides a drug should be illegal 20 years from now, and this issue repeats, then isn't really anything to do.

If a state chooses to have a draconian police force and illegalize drugs, then they have the freedom to do so.


Why should a state be able to treat people wrongly? I believe that there are some things that the federal AND state governments should stay out of. Drug use is one of those things. Just because a majority of people wants to impose it's will on the whole population does that make it right?

As long as someone is not harming another person or their property then why should any person or government be allowed to interfere with their life?
 
CreativeRandom said:
And was anyone hospitalized? Did anyone die? Anyone?

^^ Is that what it takes before it's deemed excessive force?

If a certain bit of paperwork was omitted then the event could have been closed down very simply, easily and in a civilised manner.
It was meant to be a showcase ... a threat and a warning for future events.
 
I think this is certainly a situation in which legality (which is certainly in a grey area in this incident) takes a back seat to other concerns such as the fair and ethical treatment of fellow humans. To say the primary concern of the US government is to uphold the law itself is quite a farce in my opinion considering our country is run by alcoholics, cokeheads, racists, cracksmokers, people with deplorable or non-existant scruples, illegal third party interests, etc. "The Law" in this episode is simply a vehicle for individuals to enforce their personal (religiously-influenced) will on others that are causing no harm.

Beating the shit out of people with police batons... for their own good!

Rediculous arguement.
 
Okay. Wow, you guys are thickheaded on one issue. This rave was illegal. This rave was illegal. This rave was ILLEGAL. Do you not understand this? The man who organized this event did not obtain *any* mass gathering permits from Utah county. He did get a mass gathering permit from the state, but he did not seek the approval of the county he was in.

SOURCE: SALT LAKE TRIBUNE.

The article is even posted in this thread, I believe page two or three. I even bought the god damn newspaper with the article!!! So quit saying it was legal, because it was not. So next time when you argue something, make sure you have the facts first. Saying this rave was legal is a lie, is misinformation, and completely false.

I do not think this rave is illegal, I *know* it is illegal. The Utah County Police Department also regarded and commented the illegality of the rave as well as politicians of Utah County. Of course, those who create the laws as well as those who enforce it can't be trusted on that right? So that is why I posted the article.

funkyboyfloyd, you do not know me at all, you do not know my life, so don't try to claim you do kid. I have shed much insight on my life on this website, but obviously you haven't even been here long enough to see that. For your information, I use. I am far from a cop, it is hilarious you people are comparing me to one! I can't stand them personally, and I think it takes a certain and specific kind of person to become a cop.

I post in the media section to post my unbiased comments and acknowledge fact in the face of those who are biased. Yes, drugs should be legal. Yes, we should be able to rave 24/7 if we wish to. Yes, cops suck. Yes, if we are not bothering anyone with our drug usage in a fucking deserted valley with some music, friends, and drugs, we should be able to without big brother breathing down our neck. Unfortunately, that is not how the America is today, and we must play by the rules if we want to make a change in that direction. You must abandon emotion in this kind of case and look at the facts.

My heart goes out to those who were busted and mistreated in the rave. However, by the book, there was nothing wrong with the police conduct, and everything wrong with the rave. It is up to us to make a change to make sure we can do this without this kind of shit happening, but we have to do it by the book.

It is okay for pigs to treat "peeps" like this because it is their job. Ever heard of guilt by association? When a drug or weapon is found, everyone in the vicinity is treated as a potential threat and suspect. It is also for their own protection. Out of the thousands there, who knows who has a gun and to secondguess because you don't want someone to scrape their elbow may result in serious injury or death. Is that chance small? Yea. But are you willing to bet your life that no one in that huge crowd had a gun and may want to attack the cops out of fear, mental instability, or anger?

You know what, sorry about the murderers. But they were only two potential nutcases. The rave was filled with a *potential* thousands of nutcases. In the case of two people, they are alot easier to secure and put into custody.

Wow. Making this event as an excuse to blow on Bush. That is a low blow. You are using complete emotion and insubstantial guesswork to turn this into something against Bush. Please, if you are going to bash anyone, especially the President of America, make your bashes based on fact. You wouldn't do that to a stranger would you? You wouldn't attack someone, verbal or otherwise, without having concrete evidence, would you? I'm afraid of the answer...

Actually, I believe the majority of those against Bush are anti-American. Why? For example, many say "Get the fuck out of Iraq!". Many say "We should desert Israel". Many say "9/11, Breslan, Madrid, New York, London are not reason enough for attacking the terrorists". Well, I wonder what bin Laden, Al-Qaeda, Al-Jezer, and Hamas would say. But that is off tangent.

DarthMom, I do not want to live in a world where police are violent. I, however, have the "power" of empathy. I understand the police have a tough job; they are constantly putting their life on the line for the security of the community, for the safety of Joe Citizen, and are simply following orders from representatives of the community. But besides that, there are often cases of police brutality. I have been victim of such myself. I do wish the police were perfect and were not so overzealous and aggresive in cases where it is completely unnecessary. But hey, what can you do? We can complain, which does make some difference, but like crime, it will always exist.

Perhaps their claim about injuries was in regard to what they perceived as major injuries. No one had any injuries they wouldn't heal from in a month. However that is probably the result of pressure from media.

So one person was found with a gun. Whoop right? Well, sorry to tell you this, but the police are not psychic. They did not know that. The police had no clue how many nutcases, guns, or violent drunks were at the rave. And probably, as a result of the Drug Misinformation Campaign in America, they believed that everyone at the rave was under the influence of the Deadly Ecstasy, which makes you attack those you don't like with superhuman force.

My point being in the last paragraph, besides the sad truth of how terrible the current drug policy is in America, is that they could not be sure. Better to be safe than sorry. If they had assumed everyone their was nice and unarmed, and had came into the rave, wha twould happen if they were wrong and some psychotic lunatic attacked? Even you cannot deny that at least one lunatic showed up. There are lunatics everywhere.

OR, they could assume everyone was dangerous. That way when someone attacks, they were prepared and safe. Better to scrape some elbows than lose a life right? It is a matter of pespective. It is similiar to Iraq. If they DID have WMDs, and we chose to ignore it, and they chose to attack America, we wouldve lost millions in lives and billions in damage. If they didn't have WMDs and we go in, we lose a couple thousand lives and a few billion dollars, but we gain an ally, we free a country under a terrible dictator, and we eliminate some terrorists. No one can deny that Iraq is a better place now, and there is nothing wrong with freeing a country from tyranny. That was a little off tangent, but a good example.

I was not aware there was security. It is just sad that the organizer tried so hard to make this work and was just forgetful enough to not get the right mass gathering pass from the county. You are again misguided Darthmom, as I have posted many times on this thread, this rave was *ILLEGAL*.

SheeshKeebab.... well, yes I would think so. A scraped knee or a bruised arm is nothing to raise Kaine about. A broken arm or some deep cut, that would be pretty serious and excessive force if you were not resisting arrest.

Also, SheeshKeebab, I have no doubt that this event was made as a showcase, a threat and warning for future events. I completely agree with you here, the mass gathering permit violation was a front for the police to barge in and bust everyone on drug charges. It is like getting pulled over and then the cop having dogs sniff your car, and then busted for drugs. If the organizer had the correct mass gathering permits, this would not have happened.

Personally, I think the ravers should be pissed at the organizer for fucking up this bad! Sixty people arrested and fucked in the ass by the cops simply because he did not get a permit from the county. They should literally hang his ass for being so incompetant!!!

skiforlife, can you please provide sources or proof of your statement about how our country is run by such characters? Please back your claims with fact before making such outlandish claims. And regardless, they are an extreme minority compared to the legitamate characters running the country.

I don't believe anyone got the shit beat out of them by batons in this raid. Again, please provide a reliable source or proof of this before making such an outlandish claim.

Again, legality did not "take a back seat". This rave was clearly illegal, and no one in the right mind would have a reasonable doubt drugs would be present at this rave. This was no event where "religiously influenced" will was pushed on others. Perhaps the laws which were created in regards to the illegality of the rave and the drugs found there were religiously influenced, but not this episode. The police only carried out their jobs.

CONCLUSION: This rave was completely illegal, and I have sourced this fact. You can also take a look at the Utah County Code, which is probably available online. I completely agree that the police used this simple violation as a front to make multiple drug busts and showcase that illegal raves with drugs will not be tolerated.

I believe that this raid was actually a case of extreme unbrutality because no one was hospitalized in this event. If you even scream "Bomb" in a crowded area with thousands of people, there will most likely be at least one hospitalization. Fuck, there was a Beatles concert where people died just from the quick moving crowd! The police were looking out for their own safety first as they conducted the raid, and a few elbows were scraped. Better that then being caught off guard and shot though.

The current Drug Policy in America is draconian and extremely misleading. I have no doubt this contributed to some of the scraped elbows of this event. We should take this event as an example of why we must legally protest our current drug standards, and lobby for a complete reform.
 
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CreativeRandom said:
Okay. Wow, you guys are thickheaded on one issue. This rave was illegal. This rave was illegal. This rave was ILLEGAL. Do you not understand this? The man who organized this event did not obtain *any* mass gathering permits from Utah county. He did get a mass gathering permit from the state, but he did not seek the approval of the county he was in.

Are you still banging on about this? Ok I’ll bite! :p

Quite simply one small fragment of paperwork was omitted. By your own comments this would seem like a genuine error. Businesses do such things all the time but they are never closed down by SWAT teams. I’m certain commercial music festivals have made similar mistakes but I dare say some civil servant smoothed things or it was simply ignored.

I've read all your points and agree that it's correct to present the facts and dispell any myths. Good job but your post is still full of opinion and that's what I'll tackle with my opinion ;)

Let me quote skiforlife who captured my feelings about this whole debacle …

skiforlife said:
I think this is certainly a situation in which legality (which is certainly in a grey area in this incident) takes a back seat to other concerns such as the fair and ethical treatment of fellow humans

I see and understand your point but do you see my point (and skiforlife’s)?

My heart goes out to those who were busted and mistreated in the rave. However, by the book, there was nothing wrong with the police conduct, and everything wrong with the rave.

There was much wrong with the police conduct and very little wrong with the rave [technically speaking] … it’s plain and simple bigotry to use such obvious scare tactics on a small minority of society just because they don’t adhere to their notion of what’s acceptable conduct i.e. where raves are deemed unacceptable. In Iraq I think they called it “Shock and Awe”.

It is okay for pigs to treat "peeps" like this because it is their job. Ever heard of guilt by association? When a drug or weapon is found, everyone in the vicinity is treated as a potential threat and suspect.

This is where our views differ dramatically [if I understand you correctly]. No it’s not acceptable because it’s their job under any circumstance. At a different event things would have happened differently … it happened this way because they could get away with it. Young kids probably high and scared shitless can be pushed around and even provoked.

It is also for their own protection. Out of the thousands there, who knows who has a gun and to second guess because you don't want someone to scrape their elbow may result in serious injury or death. Is that chance small? Yea. But are you willing to bet your life that no one in that huge crowd had a gun and may want to attack the cops out of fear, mental instability, or anger?

So why provoke all these obviously irrational gun totting hoodlums?
Would it not have been easier to take the gentle approach and simply ask everyone to leave? That wasn’t what they wanted. They needed arrests to publicise that raves legal or not will not be tolerated and of course to account for all that overtime.

Wow. Making this event as an excuse to blow on Bush. That is a low blow. You are using complete emotion and insubstantial guesswork to turn this into something against Bush. Please, if you are going to bash anyone, especially the President of America, make your bashes based on fact. You wouldn't do that to a stranger would you? You wouldn't attack someone, verbal or otherwise, without having concrete evidence, would you? I'm afraid of the answer...

That’s pretty funny as that’s exactly what the police did … they attacked a gathering of youths on the premise some of them were breaking the law.

Actually, I believe the majority of those against Bush are anti-American. Why? For example, many say "Get the fuck out of Iraq!". Many say "We should desert Israel". Many say "9/11, Breslan, Madrid, New York, London are not reason enough for attacking the terrorists". Well, I wonder what bin Laden, Al-Qaeda, Al-Jezer, and Hamas would say. But that is off tangent.

Tangent right enough. Against Bush means anti-American … that’s utterly ridiculous.
Yes we should get the fuck out of Iraq. I didn’t see any rush when the Kurds were being gassed in their 1000’s by Saddam and Turkey ... ahem … using materials provided by both the USA and UK.

No one had any injuries they wouldn't heal from in a month.

If we assume people were injured [while not committing an offense] then that is totally wrong regardless of how bad the injury was. It’s assault.

Better to scrape some elbows than lose a life right? It is a matter of pespective. It is similiar to Iraq. If they DID have WMDs, and we chose to ignore it, and they chose to attack America, we wouldve lost millions in lives and billions in damage. If they didn't have WMDs and we go in, we lose a couple thousand lives and a few billion dollars, but we gain an ally, we free a country under a terrible dictator, and we eliminate some terrorists. No one can deny that Iraq is a better place now, and there is nothing wrong with freeing a country from tyranny. That was a little off tangent, but a good example.

What a total and complete load of bollocks. What a terrible example. You’ve been very sensible up to this point. Iraq at no stage had WDM’s and that’s been clearly identified certainly in the UK investigation. The inspectors were pretty clear that had they been allowed to continue this could have been proven conclusively but they were pulled out specifically so the invasion could go ahead. Saddam was a terrible dictator but I don’t see any rush elsewhere on the planet (Africa) to depose tryrants. More people die each day in Iraq now than ever before. Saddam was no threat to any western nation but now it’s a hot bed of political extremists. As an aside I’d love to know how many of the political elite purchased oil assets prior to the invasion being publicized.

A scraped knee or a bruised arm is nothing to raise Kaine about. A broken arm or some deep cut, that would be pretty serious and excessive force if you were not resisting arrest.

I say again ... Any force which results in injury regardless of severity it quite simply too much force. Just because you are the Law does not preclude you from observing the law and peoples civil liberties. If I scrape your car paintwork with a key is that ok compared to ramming it with a truck? Of course not it’s still criminal damage.

I have no doubt that this event was made as a showcase, a threat and warning for future events. I completely agree with you here, the mass gathering permit violation was a front for the police to barge in and bust everyone on drug charges. It is like getting pulled over and then the cop having dogs sniff your car, and then busted for drugs. If the organizer had the correct mass gathering permits, this would not have happened.

You see that’s the whole point all along. It was a tiny infraction which was used as a springboard for wholesale attack on all participants. That’s why folks are up in arms.

This rave was completely illegal, and I have sourced this fact. I completely agree that the police used this simple violation as a front to make multiple drug busts and showcase that illegal raves with drugs will not be tolerated.

It was slightly illegal. A tiny little piece of red tape.

I believe that this raid was actually a case of extreme unbrutality because no one was hospitalized in this event. If you even scream "Bomb" in a crowded area with thousands of people, there will most likely be at least one hospitalization. Fuck, there was a Beatles concert where people died just from the quick moving crowd! The police were looking out for their own safety first as they conducted the raid, and a few elbows were scraped. Better that then being caught off guard and shot though.

Very poor examples. Your examples have absolutely no bearing or similarity to an outdoor non restricted area where for the most part people are chilled the fuck out on some drugs. Enter police creating pandemonium, freaking the crowd leading to a disorderly dispersion giving rise to some take down tactics. Cause and effect.

Conclusion: I agree. Clearly it was illegal. Was it really necessary to use such tactics? Of course not.

Land of the free or Police State? You decide.
 
I agree with you on quite a few points here. I think a simple citation would have been alot easier. However the police obviously chose to show to the state that drugs would not be tolerated, and any place where drugs may be, they will soon be there. There is no doubting this. But, there is no doubting that the police did anything illegal here (brutality aside as a separate issue please). They simple took advantage of the situation. It is the sad truth of doing anything illegal.

As my father has told me "Never do two illegal things at the same time." Don't speed with an ounce of cocaine. Don't get in a fight with some joints on you. Don't make a scene in the mall while concealing a weapon. And don't bring drugs to a rave that is illegal! Did the ravers know it was illegal? Probably not. Talk about getting screwed. This is why the incompetence of the organizer should be definately critiqued here.

Why provoke the nutcases? Well, if the police waltzed onto the scene politely asking people to leave, then I can guarentee you the first to pack their shit up would be the ones with something to hide. Obviously, the police wanted to take advantage of the situation.

If you want, you could even put politics to blame here. More drug busts scores kudos with the Police Chief. More convictions is extremely good for the District Attorney. And a tougher stance on crime may look good for the mayor.

I don't think that the police attacked this rave simply because of a premise. I don't think anyone here nor there would have a reasonable doubt of drugs being present at the rave. The police only capitalized on this notion.

Clinton was in office when the Kurds were being gased. He was perhaps one of the worst presidents we have ever had, his reputation only partially saved because of the Congress at the time. You have a good point, we should've rushed into Iraq at that time. Bush Sr. failed to finish the job and we are now paying the piper for it.

It is just like how we are paying, and have paid, the price for not finishing up in WW2. We got rid of dictators on the far east of Asia and the far west of Europe, but failed to save those more mainland. If we had eliminated the communist and tyrannical threats that were sowing their seeds then, we could've avoided alot of messes we are still cleaning up. China would not be communist. North Korea would be a democracy united with South. The whole Cold War avoided (and that damned waste NASA would have never been made), and with that, so would've the Vietnam, Korean, and Afghani-Russo wars. The middle east would not be so chockful of terrible dictators left over from the Ottoman Empire. Militant Islam would not exist. The Taliban would not have been created.

God damn, if we simply stopped just the communist seeds, alot would have been spared! As mentioned above, said wars would not come about. The Taliban would not have been created as a way for the communists to implant themselves in Afghan/middle eastern government. Then such terrorism would not come about, the current Iraq war would not have happened.... well whatever. Point is , I agree with you. We should've done something a long time ago about this, whether in WW2 or when the Kurds were being gased.

Your right, if people were hurt if they were innocent, even a scraped elbow, then it was wrong. You've stumped me there though. How do you ensure the comfort and safety of the innocent who number in the hundreds, who are intermingled with those who are criminals who number by the hundreds?

More people die each day today than previously? I don't know about that, even you just mentioned the thousands who were being gased in Iraq, but by their own government! More people die each year in the American prison system than in Iraq. Most of the American casualties are self-inflicted. I wonder what is the number of casualties caused by enemy fire. I bet it isn't even a third of the total number.

Saddam was a threat to our nation, however direct or indirect you make it to be. Money trails are obvious linking Saddam to al-Qaeda, Hamas, and the Palistinean Liberation Army (sp?). Saddam obviously was trying to acquire WMDs. In 1993 Israel bombed a developing nuclear power plant in Iraq. Hm.... And besides, interballistic missiles were found in Iraq. What would Saddam put in those missiles.... confetti? And besides that, Iraq was a haven for terrorists and he had no policies against their lodging there. Saddam also openly aired his miscontent against one of our key allies in the area, Israel, and supported anyone who contributed to their downfall.

And even if Saddam was this innocent malevolent hermit dictator, what wrong is their in liberating Iraq? Something we should've done when the Kurds were being killed, like you said yourself.

I agree and change my point on the whole scraped knee issue though. You are in the right here, I am not and admit I was wrong. Anyone innocent who was hurt by the police was unjustly hurt. Perhaps they deserve a compensation from the state? But like I said, hundreds of criminals and hundreds of innocents. What are you going to do?

Perhaps the police should have went about this in a more considerate manner. Politely ask people to leave, but search cars on the way out? Use dogs? Less busts, but no innocent people hurt.

Haha, definately Land of the Police state. Way too much time on their hands. But we are guarenteed our freedoms. It is just when you break a law, they break you. Literally!

CONCLUSION: I agree, the police should have figured a better way to make those oh-so-desirable busts without causing so much panic. You have corrected me on this matter.

I am not going to conclude the political ranter of this discussion, it is all laid out and a bit off tangent anyways. However, I will say this.


If I was wrong, and we go into a country we presume has weapons but doesn't, than we lose some lives and some money but we liberate a nation from a terrible dictator. Something the people of the country will be forever grateful and indebted to us, and become an ally of free nations of the world. True, there are many nations that need liberation today and why does one merit it more than the other? But still, perhaps you could say this is the beginning. Either way, it seems like a win-win situation.

If your were wrong and the country we presume has weapons does indeed have weapons, some place, some where, millions will die and billions upon billions of dollars will be spent on damages and reconstruction as well as a retaliatory strike. No matter where this weapon is set off, it will undoubtedly directly affect our economy and hurt you and me, be it equity, interest costs, house prices, imports, or gas prices. And as the Great Depression showed, when other economies go to shit, ours will go down too (We need foreigners to sell their shit, be rich, so they can buy our shit). Seems to me, either option will result in a war, loss of lives, and billions in cost.

And lets hope that it isn't America that is striked, because then the consequences are many times over worse. If NYC was wiped out, America would be in the shiter, and hard. Look how bad we are now with the South ruined by Katrina, gas prices rose up two dollars a gallon overnight! Gas is over $6 a gallon in some places in my area.
 
This is getting rather OT.

Your post above kinda meanders all over the place (Middle East/USSR/The Rave) but I think we've discussed the salient points and more or less agreed with each other. So ...

It wasn't really possible to attack communist at the end of the war. Primarily because Europe had been ravaged by war for over 4 years and was in no state to do so. The USSR had geared up near the end of the war and was producing massive levels of equipment and trained/battle hardened soldiers and effective officers (lest we forget Stalins purge before the war).

The Allies agreed to carve up the axis states with the Russians rather than have another war ... fair play.

I don't think anyone can be blamed for the problems in the Middle east or elsewhere directly as it's a complex web but the 2 world wars played a large part in destabiling many regimes and power struggles ensued. I guess Germany should take part of the blame but then so must the UK certainly before WW2 and the US after WW2 for interferring in issues of soveriegn states and creating/legitimising/revoking (Kurdistan for instance) other states.

It was realised pretty quickly that control over the oil producing regions must be ensured at all cost and We've been interfering in the Middle East ever since. Supplying weapons to opposing regimes and often to both sides, installing puppet governments, threatening and just generally being total cunts.

Although initally allied with the USSR Saddam took over Iraq in 1979 at the same time the Shah of Iran was run out of town. Guess who became our new best friend? We supplied weapons and technology and probably played a large part in promoting the 1980 Iran-Iraq war.

I find it peculiar and ironic that two democratic countries (although that's changing fast) have spent so much time and effort supporting such brutal dictators and I can therefore understand the resentment felt by many Arabs. Here's a quiz name one democratic state in Arabia? Of all the states we currently support are any of them democratic? So democracy is just another buzz word when we should just be honest and say oil. That's all we're here for and really couldn't give a flying fuck about individual rights but it's a card we can play if anybody asks.

Without banging on and on ... we shouldn't be there and if it wasn't for oil we wouldn't be there.

Oh and PS we've been paying $6 a gallon for years.
 
We may not have been in the best shape after WW2 considering how heavy a toll it cost the world, but dealing with it then would have saved alot of money and lives in the long run. Hell, we are still cleaning up the mess created back then and we haven't even addressed issues that will inevitably become an issue such as the remaining communist states.

The Allies agreeing to cut up axis states with the Russians was the worst mistake ever made in WW2 besides the U.N., and both of those tragedies are related. Roosevelt, undoubtedly the worst president ever and an obvious lunatic, was so infactuated and poisoned with his idea of the United Nations that he had to give axis states to the Russians so that they would join. Before this offer, the Russians wanted no part in the U.N. Roosevelt simply wanted every nation in, regardless of how evil they were.

It was the same mistake Woodrow Wilson made after WW1. He was infactuated was the League of Nations, and in his zeal to get everyone to join he fucked over Germany to appeal to the French, a la Versailles Treaty .

Both the League of Nations and the U.N. failed miserably at what they were designed to do: Maintain world peace and defend member nations from hostility. Now we have member nations attacking each other, war never prevented, billions wasted, and despotic nations telling America what to do.

Anyways, the carving up of axis states was not fair play; many eastern european countries suffered many years under slavery just like Russians did under their own government. It was not to avoid war, only to make Russia join the U.N. Roosevelt gladly sacrificed many countries' freedoms and let a monster go unchecked, and even be considered an equal, just to get his U.N. rolling.

Many people can be blamed for the problems in the middle east, depending on how far back you want to go. I would think Roosevelt or Eisenhower could be blamed for not finishing business. Both World Wars destabilized many regimes and put them out of business, which is fantastic. We failed to capatilize on the situation and instead another gang took over. Instead of helping nations get on the right track, we have to now liberate them from current regimes no different than their predecessors.

America had no rule or intent of colonizing. We never tried to control oil producing regions. Britain did though. America recognized a free nation is a better partner than a puppet state.

We have supplied weapons to people though not necessarily to regimes. For instance, the whole "we suppliled bin Laden" argument: We merely supported the Afghanistan people in rebelling the Russians. This was their Vietnam, in a sense (though we won both). These wars were not necessarily for land, but a fiscal and resource war. Both of these wars crippled the Russian economy. However, we should have in full force supported the Afghanistanis instead of just supplying weapons, a lesson we learned in The Bay of Pigs.

I am sorry for not being more educated on the Iran-Iraq war and the 1979 coup-de-etat. If you could PM with information on the issue while I research it myself, we could discuss that.

Israel is a democratic state....As well as Afghanistan, and Iraq.

This whole oil conspiracy is complete bullshit. If we wanted oil, we could have simply taken over Venezuela, Iraq, or Afghanistan. But we didn't! Gas prices are sky high at the time being! Besides, creating free nations in regions of crude oil is much better than annexing them. Free nations become highly economic and extremely well off, as well as having much better technology and development. If a free nation were to be in control of an oil resource region, they would easily pump out many times more oil, for cheaper, and sell it for cheaper, than any dictatorship with access to oil. So, in a sense, you could say it is about oil. We are liberating a nation and creating a democracy, which will in turn make great use of their resources. We don't need to do anything "evil" or have any "hidden agenda" to gain oil.

Currently Iraq engineers are working with US engineers in developing oil in more economic and efficient ways. I believe once Iraq is on its feet, able to defend itself, we will see a dramatic drop in oil prices.

We should be there, and oil is not the reason we are there. If it wasn't Iraq, we probably would've went into Iran, or Syria, or Lebanon. There just happen to be terrorists in that area. This oil shit is just a cheap shot taken simply because it can fit the bill. It is so easy to cry "Oil!" without substantiating it with any facts. If it really was for oil, we would've taken over the region and oil would be alot cheaper.

And in the words of a female political writer here in America, "Why not? We need oil". Why not simply take over a region and suck out precious oil for ourselves? Well.... whatever.
 
My first post.

Looking at both accounts from both sides, there were violations all around.
But in defense of the police, and from me reading the meth threads and what not, I too would be armed like the police if I were to raid a party like that. The rave was not 100% legal. According to the article on utahcountyonline.org, this excerpt:

"It was verified that more than 250 individuals were at the party, in violation or county statutes and by 11:30 pm law enforcement personnel moved in to curtail and disburse the party. During this process at least 60 arrests were made for weapons offenses, DUI, illegal underage consumption of alcohol, possession of marijuana, possession of cocaine, possession of methamphetamine, possession of ecstasy, distribution of ecstasy, resisting arrest, assault on a police officer, and disorderly conduct."

.. the ravers weren't innocent at all. I don't applaud the police for their use of brutality, but I don't frown upon them for being armed and shooting tear gas. Mix Meth + Weapons, or someone all schitzed out, and it's like throwing gasoline on a fire.
 
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