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Y does the psychedlic experience exist? is there an evolutionary basis? implications?

Some interesting things to think about you have all posted.


My original question is really based more on holes and DMT like experiences, not just acid tripping and altering the real world perception although its just a smaller step towards hyperspace.


Anyways, I find it very strange that we see things like elves, or lego land, or very extravagantly put together scenes or ordeals that go beyond just fractalizing visuals. Like someone posted in trip reports about a slavia trip where a giant announcement came on saying that he was the 1,000,000 th contestant and his name was spelled out in legos in the sky, hardly just a random/repeating patterning you would expect with a "disording" or brain processes.

why elves, why is it like a kids cartoon? Why isn't it just a bunch of random nasty static or memories playing out? I wonder if these occurrences are some kind of product of collective human culture as it exists these days on earth and our notions of it. What if you gave a hole or dmt to a caveman from 20,000 years ago, who has no memories/ideals which all relate to modern life. Does he see the same elves? Or is his experience quite different due to his life and memories being totally different? What if you gave psychedelics to a person who had been locked in a dark room since they were born and never spoken to even looked at anything? What would their hole or DMT trip be like? Their are reports on blind peoples experiences that had been blind since birth but not very many or very descriptive.

I understand that these are mostly impossible questions to answer, but I like hearing peoples ideas and also being directed to research or anecdotes which relate to these questions.


the answer is simple
what you see is chimerized collage of real sensation and memory fragments.
chimerization or blending is what our brain can do spectacularly.

if you hold one image longer than usual, and let it bleed or blend then you get a mix of two or three depending on the depth of overlay.
being stoned means having time based impressions last longer before fading.
you actually get the hang of it while it is happening and you realize you are observing the fabrication of your experience while you are making it ....

elves faces are a vertical smear, which elongates ears and chin, clowns are more circular chimerization with exaggerated nose and mouth and bleary eyes.
.
luminous lego is the layers fragmenting and rearranging
 
Without typing a barely comprehensible wall of text, I'll just toss my theory out there...and no this isn't meant to be a government conspiracy theory. I don't think it was planned this way...but....

What if humans actually evolved in the opposite direction than what's being suggested by the OP? Where humans actually experienced "reality" in a heightened state of awareness similar to what we refer to today as a "psychedelic state", but over time, as society and civilization began to become more and more solidified, that individual freedom of perceiving your "reality" in what ever way your brain sees fit was slowly stripped away over time because humans/authority/government/general population established a consensus of what "reality" is. With that possibility in mind, consider that our brains are extremely adaptive, and new pathways are formed every day based on your experiences and environmental factors, so I think it's very possible for someone to truly believe what reality they're supposed to be experiencing (because all "facts" tell them that it's always been this way, it's like this for everyone else, and it's like this for you too), and as a result, actually experience that reality they've been conditioned to experience. The "placebo effect" is a very simple and short-term example of this theory at play, where if someone truly believes they should be experiencing/feeling/seeing something, they will, to some extent, experience/feel/see it.

At no point did I even try to think about WHY. That is exponentially more complicated than WHAT.
 
luminous lego ..mmmm that overclocks my heart :)

I vividly remember the last time I went full lego

I never see eyes everywhere despite people saying it's common on psychedelics. In fact I've never seen eyes where there weren't any. Or faces.

The weirdest type of blindness ever?

seriously though: the recipe is a fuckton of large caliber tryptamines, I don't really see eyes, faces or entities on phens either, not unless I have really evacuated reality altogether on them...
 
Why do you think its there if it serves no evolutionary purpose? If we follow the model of evolution, there seems to be no reason whatsoever for it to be there, thus it leads me to suspect that there must be something more, like god or something put it there and drugs are a gift from god.

This isn't really how evolution works. Most traits that appear through evolution aren't selected for some purpose, they either appear randomly or "piggyback" with some other trait that is selected. I expect psychedelia is no different.
 
^ well it seems detrimental to survival to see shit that isn't really there. and from what I understand about how evolution works is that traits which disfavor survival tend to disappear despite how they randomly ended up being there
 
This isn't really how evolution works. Most traits that appear through evolution aren't selected for some purpose, they either appear randomly or "piggyback" with some other trait that is selected. I expect psychedelia is no different.

It will be hard to tell if this trait ever was or will be adaptively advantageous but as a society it is good having people around who are good at it.
 
I blame God, the CIA, and whatever assholes created a god with no memory and contact with others.
 
^ well it seems detrimental to survival to see shit that isn't really there. and from what I understand about how evolution works is that traits which disfavor survival tend to disappear despite how they randomly ended up being there

I get what you're saying, but these things turn out to be really complicated. Is it detrimental to survival if you sometimes mistake a tree branch for a snake? Better than mistaking a snake for a tree branch. Also, many detrimental traits get selected against but never disappear completely - that's why we still have genetic diseases.

It will be hard to tell if this trait ever was or will be adaptively advantageous but as a society it is good having people around who are good at it.
Agreed, even if your tribe (mostly) never eats mushrooms, it's good overall to have a few people around who are willing to experiment and can take unfamiliar situations in stride.
 
luminous lego ..mmmm that overclocks my heart :)

I vividly remember the last time I went full lego



The weirdest type of blindness ever?

seriously though: the recipe is a fuckton of large caliber tryptamines, I don't really see eyes, faces or entities on phens either, not unless I have really evacuated reality altogether on them...
I took like 500 mg of 4-aco-dmt once and saw no eyes (in fact the whole think was much less intense than you'd think, I've had stronger trips from much much less drugs (the strongest being some lysergamide + disso combination)). I think that qualifies as a fuckton of tryptamines. And before anyone asks why, I'm not really sure, it was stupid and a waste of 4-aco-dmt, but I whatever.... And I didn't take any benzos or anything similar before/during or have tolerance (although 500 mg 4-aco-dmt should take a lot of benzos/tolerance to stop). I did however see trees/grass/mushrooms growing all over my apartment.

The most intense trips I've had involved eth-lad + ald-52 + o-pce and 3-meo-pce or 2c-t-7 or my very first trip with only 14 mg of 2c-e.

Not that I want to see eyes anyway, that just sounds creepy....
 
I took like 500 mg of 4-aco-dmt once and saw no eyes (in fact the whole think was much less intense than you'd think, I've had stronger trips from much much less drugs (the strongest being some lysergamide + disso combination)). I think that qualifies as a fuckton of tryptamines. And before anyone asks why, I'm not really sure, it was stupid and a waste of 4-aco-dmt, but I whatever.... And I didn't take any benzos or anything similar before/during or have tolerance (although 500 mg 4-aco-dmt should take a lot of benzos/tolerance to stop). I did however see trees/grass/mushrooms growing all over my apartment.

The most intense trips I've had involved eth-lad + ald-52 + o-pce and 3-meo-pce or 2c-t-7 or my very first trip with only 14 mg of 2c-e.

Not that I want to see eyes anyway, that just sounds creepy....

This weekend I'm planning something like 350ug LSD + 100ug ETH-LAD + 30mg 2-OxO-PCE and maybe smoking some DMT :) I usually mix my 2-OxO-PCE with tryptamines, but want to give it a try with lysergamides. I'm expecting some hardcore tripping. How do you time the 2-oxo and the lysergamides?
 
You can just take them all at once or even better try and take the o-pce just as you are about to peak on the psys. If you manage to hole during the peak you have won the game.

If you take them all at once I'd eat the o-pce to delay the onset a little bit and try and get the peaks to happen at the same time, if you take it just before peaking I'd snort it or plug (might be a bit hard while already nearing the peak) it for the same reason.

If you take any 3-meo ach too eat it at the beginning, the onset is slower that way and the peaks will likely align nicely.

Also, that's going to be a pretty strong trip, just 125 ug ald-52, 100 ug eth-lad and 30 mg o-pce had me completely in my own head during the peak (including being several people at several points in time/space at once, time not being linear, talking to some entity which presented itself as god which I promptly told 'you're not god, you're me and this is my trip so we're gonna play this by my rules' and then flipped off... I assume it was my reflection in the mirror but who knows....), it was very enjoyable and the disso removed any anxiety like a benzo would have without dulling the trip but actually synergizing with it.
 
Yeah dissos do the exact opposite of dulling trips... very synergistic, but they do indeed eliminate some or all of the fear/anxiety. The disso + psychedelic combo is the best. MXE is my favorite for combining with psychs, but I haven't tried O-PCE yet.

Well, actually, with lysergamides, 3-MeO-PCP is my favorite to mix. For some reason it really works fantastically well with lysergamides, not as well with others.
 
I prefer 3-meo-pce by a tiny bit but 3-meo-pcp is almost as good. Haven't really tried either with any psychedelic but lysergamides and 4-ho/aco tryptamines, but they work nicely with the trypts too (and with stims but that can get out of hand really fast... the line between mania and psychosis is very thin and you only want mania... if you do it right the mania makes cocaine cry though).

MXE was nice for combos with psychedelics but I can't really do a direct comparison between o-pce + eth-lad + ald-52 (my preferred lysergamide when picking between lsd, 1p-lsd and itself) and mxe + eth-lad + ald-52 since by the time I got my hands on eth-lad/ald-52 I couldn't really get any more MXE (well maybe if I tried hard enough but I like o-pce more if we're just comparing dissos so..). I do remember mxe being very good with al-lad, 4-ho-met, 2c-c and probably some more stuff.

My favourite psy/disso combo so far is 3-meo-pce + o-pce + eth-lad + ald-52.
I'll really be a shame if eth-lad goes away, nothing quite get's the visuals and head space of it (except 1p-eth-lad and probably 1a-eth-lad, but that's even harder to make than eth-lad)
 
I'm probably going nuts this weekend and start the day with some 3-meo-pcp (or 3-ho-pce, as I need to further experiment with it), and eating the acid + 2-oxo-pce at the same time some hours into the 3meo. I'm really forward a good and crazy out of body experience so a strong trip is expected and desired ;)

Sadly, I couldn't experiment with MXE and psychedelics a lot. When I was doing MXE I had addiction problems with dissos, doing them everyday between ketamine and MXE. Beeing in that state, I forgot about psychedelics for 2-3 years, and just recently started to take them again. Also I learned to take my dissos more responsibly.

But I have got a very good memory of having my first LSD experience with OEV on 3 hits + snorted MXE. Euphoria hitted me hard when, after like 5 years of psychedelia without little or none OEV, I started to see the letters on my computer falling, or spinning fractals projected on the wall. I hope to have a similar experience this weekend with the combo :D

My favourite combo is 2-oxo-pce and 4-ho-met hands down, amazing psychedelia mixed with an OBE, it's like dying and be reborn from your ashes like a phoenix. But I need to do further experimenting with lysergamides, they can change my opinion for sure :)

I second your thoughts about ETH-LAD. C'mon people! Stop the AL-LAD, ALD-52 and 1P-LSD altogether if you wish, I won't cry, there is a lot of good and cheap LSD out there... But keep doing the ETH-LAD!!! It's an amazing compound, really very different from acid. For me it´s like the MXE of the lysergamides. An incomparable unique beast on his class.
 
Do write more if you decide to go with the 3-ho-pce, I still can't pin that one down... hole friendly like o-pce/dck/ketamine/2f-dck or more like the 3-meos or somewhere in between... it certainly is interesting even if the reviews have been less than stellar.

MXE certainly is/was something special, sure some of the other dissos beat it in some categories but still (and I personally prefer o-pce). Perfect introduction to dissos, very easy going and forgiving in low doses and yet still capable of taking you very far if you wanted. I remember taking it with 4-ho-met and all I could do while it lasted was laugh :D The current ones are all to specialised compared to it. Too bad mxm didn't take off or that nobody has tried making 3-meo-2'oxo-pcpr or 3-ho-2'oxo-pce, both of which look structurally close to it, maybe close enough for the effects to be close.

Yeah, eth-lad is indeed a unique gem, don't get why it's not more popular. I've heard some people get too much nausea from it or maybe it's the name... 1p-lsd sounds like lsd while eth-lad sounds like some weird chemical.. even ald-52 is not as popular as it should be since 1p-lsd, lsd and ald-52 are in the end quite close.. but 1p-lsd sells better than ald-52.. I wonder what would happen if you sold 1p-lsd as pld-52 and ald-52 as 1a-lsd (both would still be kinda correct). Personally I slightly prefer ald-52 over lsd (ald-52 > lsd > 1p-lsd as far as publicly released r1 lsd subs go) but would still rather give it up than eth-lad. And al-lad while fun and all can be replaced well enough by 4-ho/aco-met if it's really that much of a problem to continue making it.
 
I took like 500 mg of 4-aco-dmt once and saw no eyes

Wow ok.. well maybe 'recipe' was misleading: some psychedelic effects seem truly like a basic part of the package but other effects are more rare like for me synaesthesia is one holy grail. Just like Shulgin describes ++++ experiences: tragicly it doesn't seem possible to reliably produce such exotic effects. I'd say things like entities or eyes are more of a tendency of tryptamines by a long shot if I compare all trypt and phen trips, but yeah you never really know what you're gonna get, as much as I hate to quote Forest Gump.

Trypts are much better at creating alien worlds for me, even DiPT while it did not entertain me really with auditory effects nor visual, made me feel like I was sensing this thin veil separating this dimension from one filled with strange entities. Phens for me take more of a photoshop approach but their richness lies more in empathogenic and entactogenic effects for me. Mesc and 2C-Ts can be somehow visionary but this still feels super personal instead of aliens, mysterious teachings, amazon canoo rides with a Crazy Frog type character. Otherworldly vs ultrawordly somehow, although the psychedelia can make distinctions unclear.
Sure if you eat enough 2C-T-7 and go delirious that is not so in touch with yourself anymore but I don't think that counts.

I second your thoughts about ETH-LAD. C'mon people! Stop the AL-LAD, ALD-52 and 1P-LSD altogether if you wish, I won't cry, there is a lot of good and cheap LSD out there... But keep doing the ETH-LAD!!! It's an amazing compound, really very different from acid. For me it´s like the MXE of the lysergamides. An incomparable unique beast on his class.

Hell yes, thirded. It should be a beautiful day tomorrow here, my house has never been neater and cleaner, I think ETH-LAD is a go. :)
 
I side with the idea that the psychedelic experience is not built into the brain, but is an emergent property of having a homeostatic environment as our seat of consciousness. Disrupting it leads to perceived changes in our experience of reality.

I don't think there is really a point or benefit to the psychedelic state as such, but certainly they can be beneficial to a smallish number of people. Many people who take a psychedelic dislike the experience, many people find it uncomfortable, confusing and frightening with little desire to repeat it. This actually makes sense considering that psychedelic compounds in some plants are thought to be evolved defense mechanisms, though I'm not entirely convinced this goes across the whole gamut of psychedelics.


I believe we are not looking at the big picture of evolution here. As I see it, the point of evolution is in ultimate calculation of reality, ultimate transcendence, self-transcendence and total understanding. Kind of like a point of information saturation on the global level

I'm curious about this. What makes you think that is the "point" to evolution? Given what we know of the principles that evolution operates on, which are random mutations that an indivdual passes on to its offspring, it is a very odd system to create if there is an end-point. Evolution does not have awareness of the past or future, it responds only in the eternal present. In this sense, it cannot have an aim or point, the future does not exist in this realm. No adapatation ever has ocurred because it will be of benefit in the future; a mutation arises that does not kill the organism, and if it is lucky, it will pass that mutation along to its offspring, regardless of whether the mutation is actually beneficial or not. We did not evolve bipedalism so that we could climb mountains 2 million years later, we evolved it due to the pressures influencing the organism at the present moment. Evolution has all the hallmarks of a blind and neutral process.


Probably anything that the brain does, it is meant to do it. Psychedelic experience can happen in lots of different ways, even spontaneously. We assume our normal state of conciousness is the only one valid in the way it perceives reality, that's called cognicentrism. Neuroscience is just a part of the truth, so the scientific method is. It brings valuable information to the equation but no definite truth. Things are too complicated and understanding is limited by our capability. It just seems to be impossible to look at the whole picture.
To reduce the psychedlic experience to some changes in neurotransmitors in our brain might be oversimplifing and trying to see too objectively things that are inmensely subjective.

So is it simply a coincidence that changes in neurotransmitters occur during a psychedelic experience?

Defining everyday, drug-free consciousness as normal should be seen as a neutral statement. We have a baseline state of perceiving the world, we alter it via a chemical and the perception changes. Our bodies actively metabolise and excrete the chemicals and we return to baseline. This doesn't mean that the psychedelic experience isn't real or important, just that it is both dependant on chemical changes in the body and evidence for a normal/typical/average/median experience of consiousness which we call 'sobriety' or 'boredom' ;)

Of course, it could be a coincidence but it seems odd that everytime you ingest a psychedelic chemical, you will experience a psychedelic trip. They are merely enablers.
 
Not very interested in the old materialism vs espiritualism discussion right now to be honest. It is just kind of a waste of time as everybody always goes on thinking exactly the same than before the discussion. Anyway I feel quite neutral in the discussion and other people is welcome to think otherwise.
Just to point out that never said words like coincidence. And that my whole point is that we don't know. None of us. Scientists neither. To believe you know doesn't mean you do.

IMHO There is not such thing as drug-free conciousness. Our mental estates are govern by drugs all the time (or the other way around). To be baseline is a concept that is useful but not really anything that we can quantify as our conciousness is all the time moving and differs probably from one person to the next and is affected even by environment or beliefs.

Once a psychiatrist told the Dalai Lama that people was depressed because of serotonin depletion. The Dalai Lama laught and said "It is the other way around, their brains don't produce enough serotonin because they are depressed."

Not trying to ridiculise your opinions as they are as valid as mine. Let's not keep the discussion going in cercles. A word is enough to the wise. To play the I am right game makes us look more arrogant than clever...And I plead guilty!
 
I side with the idea that the psychedelic experience is not built into the brain, but is an emergent property of having a homeostatic environment as our seat of consciousness. Disrupting it leads to perceived changes in our experience of reality.
while trying to be scientific, this really fails to say anything specific.
Certain changes in homeostasis do cause psychedelic states some times.
Attributing every thing to homeostasis is even less informative than attributing everything to god.
...
Of course, it could be a coincidence but it seems odd that everytime you ingest a psychedelic chemical, you will experience a psychedelic trip. They are merely enablers.
here you must mean every time that you do not have tolerance issues you will have a psychedelic trip.

but I agree that speculating about evolution is difficult,
also agree that materialist and non-materialist discussion of consciousness is pointless without a good definition of consciousness (let alone, seat of consciousness)
 
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