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Xenon vs Nitrous Oxide

Not trying to have an anti-xenon agenda, just worried about the formation of drug lore from a single readout with multiple interpretations.
Sure.

It does seem to me like many anesthesiologists are convinced xenon is the ideal ans safest anesthetic. And these aren't like alternatives medicine ppl claiming it cures cancer. So its interesting. I dont understand the structure well enough to know why they are so confident about it's safety
 
Sure.

It does seem to me like many anesthesiologists are convinced xenon is the ideal ans safest anesthetic. And these aren't like alternatives medicine ppl claiming it cures cancer. So its interesting. I dont understand the structure well enough to know why they are so confident about it's safety


Xenon is pretty inert (even being the most reactive noble gas, it's still a noble gas). This means people only have to worry about drug like action and not metabolic nonsense.

That means it's not going to bind to metal centers (looking at you nitrous), or undergo dehalogenation to a toxic metabolite (looking at you halothane). Also there isn't evidence of it causing cardiac catecholamine sensitization a la alkanes.

One thing i think to be mindful of would be its effects on erythropoetin(epo). I remember hearing about athletes using xenon to basicly blood dope by activating hif1a (hypoxia factor 1 alpha) which responds to low oxygen by stimulating the synthesis of epo which increases red blood cell production. @copium7777 have you noticed any increases in cardiovascular endurance after beginning your xenon regimen?

If this effect is real it could warrant prophylactic low dose aspirin to balance out increased clotting.
 
This is an area of considerable interest for me actually. I was interested in the increases in blood volume and cerebral blood flow that are induced by xenon. Because in me/cfs, pots, and various types of orthostatic intolerance, the overall blood volume and the cerebral blood flow is low.

Heres one source on that https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...FjACegQICxAB&usg=AOvVaw2swLkKMBB95UVDNmwaHCMH

Hope that link works. If not will edit this post later. Regardless the basics are nobody knows what causes the low blood volume in me/cfs but saline infusions, bloodinfusions, florinef, desmopressin, and strong compression garments have often relieved it, if only temporarily. However its low total blood volume but not anemia, the portion of red blood cells in the blood isnormal, just total low volume with normal proportions of plasma and rbc etc. So not absolutely sure that increasing epo is good. However as I read all these sources it's not confirmed it increases epo. It just increases hif-a 1 or something upstream of epo. Athletes use it to increase blood volume and presumably epo, but athletes do lots of experimental stuff so who knows. What is confirmed is that it increases cerebral blood flow.

Back to me/cfs and blood volume for a second. What is particularly interesting is that there is a major subset of patients that have high blood pressure but low volume, hypovolemic hypertension, so the pressure actually decreases when they get saline or volume expanders which is very counterintuitive. But anyway I'm in I'm subset and often have hyperadrenergic states where I have high pressure or slightly high, and sinus tachycardia as well as pots. Ketamine helps with pain but it absolutely doesnt help with that, if anything it is noticeably sympathomimetic. So when I tried xenon it was nice to notice that it didnt raise my heart rate or give me any type of peripheral overstimulation, if anything it made me noticeably physically calmer.

Anyway in terms of subjective effects, xenon definitely helps my cognition and energy and orthostatic intolerance in a way saline and other volume expanding things do. And this effect isnt extremely long lasting , but it lasts longer than the xenon is in my system, especially if I have many repeated doses. So it's no miracle drug, but that is a great thing it does on top of the really intense pain relief. I will write a blog post with references about this sometime.
Anywsy, yes it doesn't cure me or last that long but nothing does... bc I am severely ill, and the upstream cause is most likely my cervicomedullary syndrome/cci, which need to be address surgically. If I try xenon after this, I'm sure it will speed my recovery and have increasingly long lasting benefits. I think for a more mildly ill person it could have long lasting benefits

In your use, have you noticed any tolerance developing? Do you think using several hours per day every day would be realistic?
 
Dentists have died and I suspect it’s nitrous dissolving lung tissue.
 
Just a hunch. Yeah don’t rely on that for xenon.
 
Dentists have died and I suspect it’s nitrous dissolving lung tissue.
Dentists often get nerve issues ans stuff just from occupational exposure to constant low doses. Which suggesrs nitrous is more dangerous at constant low doses than occasional high doses i think. Anyway , we are talking about xenon which is totally different
 
I havent noticed tolerance develpp but the climic owners who were psycholpgically addicted did seem to use thay much and develop a bit of tolerance. But the top amount ive ever used daily is like one or two balloons given the cost so it makes sense i wouldnt. Using that much isnt realistic unless you are wealthy, in which case id say go for it if you have a safe set up circuit wise
Thank you for your response. The cost fortunately doesn't bother me that much. And by the way, it isn't THAT outrageously expensive. With a closed breathing system (rebreather) you will need around 10 liters during the first two hours and after that around 2 liters per hour. Assuming ten hours per day, that's about 26 liters. At 10 usd per liter, 260 usd per day. Not exactly cheap, but still quite manageable.


And by the way, that's an anesthetic dose, which is probably quite a lot higher than the dose providing the greatest pleasure. It's not like I want to sleep, I want to have a good time.

For ketamine for example, the K hole dose is about 0.75x the anesthetic dose, so realistically I will probably only need 20 liters per day.
 
Thank you for your response. The cost fortunately doesn't bother me that much. And by the way, it isn't THAT outrageously expensive. With a closed breathing system (rebreather) you will need around 10 liters during the first two hours and after that around 2 liters per hour. Assuming ten hours per day, that's about 26 liters. At 10 usd per liter, 260 usd per day. Not exactly cheap, but still quite manageable.
If u find a way to makw this work wirh consumer grade equipment you would be correct that its not that expensive. Youd also be the first to do this lol. Id be mad impressed and would love to see it
 
Rapid Response:

Nitrous Oxide volumes from an 8 gram cartridge

An editorial on abuse of nitrous oxide did not mention the volumes produced. [1] Previous measurements by charging an empty air-filled cream maker with an 8 gram N2O cartridge produced 3.24 Litres of nitrous oxide including 2% oxygen. [2] Manufactured small aluminium holders (crackers) are available in which a cartridge is pushed by a screw thread up to a brass spike that penetrates the cartridge tip releasing gas into an attached balloon. Instead of a balloon a N2O filled 1 litre anaesthetic reservoir bag was emptied by filling and discharging to atmosphere with a 60 ml syringe via a three way tap until empty. 3.67 Litres of N2O was produced (41 discharges x 60ml + 10ml) The bag was emptied to create the same vacuum as before discharge. Both crackers and 8g cylinder cartridges are easily available even though proscribed by law.

So

This means those nitrous balloons were fucking 3 liters each!

But

While that's bad...

Xenon is a very different density

So we'd need to divide or multiply to get the answer quickly about

How much amount you're actually getting per volume or whatever

Ugh

How much mass I mean?

The fact that xenon is 4.5 times as dense as room air , does that mean a balloon the same size as the 3 liter nitrous one would have more xenon or less

So I guess volume is volume, it's not mass, but I'm then confused by what it could mean when we talk about gases being 100 liters but they're compressed... like is that 100 liters now referring to mass like in a shorthand roundabout way, rather than volume, bc they're saying its 100 liters [at regular air pressure] even if its compressed into a volume that tends to hold 2 liters?

I'm just trying to figure out what's the difference between a medium sized balloon of nitrous (which apparently is like 3.5 liters), and that same size of xenon. Am I being foolish, is this like pound of feathers or pound of lead? Or would there be a difference in volume even if in the same container? Bc xenon is so much denser than nitrous it's probably less particles of it in same space despite more mass...

Huh ...
 
This interests me as well. The way things are shaping up, I might end up using Xenon several hours per day every day. It looks like the perfect drug. At such high prices, not wasting any seems to be a good idea...
I think a scuba rebreather could work ... if you have premixed xenon and oxygen. It does co2 scrubbing. It's not like 100 percent safe... I'm sure u could pass out and something could go wrong.
 
Lithium hydroxide is used in breathing gas purification systems for spacecraft, submarines, and rebreathers to remove carbon dioxide from exhaled gas by producing lithium carbonate and water:[13]

2 LiOH•H2O + CO2 → Li2CO3 + 3 H2O
or

2 LiOH + CO2 → Li2CO3 + H2O
The latter, anhydrous hydroxide, is preferred for its lower mass and lesser water production for respirator systems in spacecraft. One gram of anhydrous lithium hydroxide can remove 450 cm3 of carbon dioxide gas. The monohydrate loses its water at 100–110 °C.
 
My bloodwork came back normal in terms of b12, methylmalonic acid, and folate, so to celebrate I'm going to take nitroud today. My CBC was normal besides high eosinophils which is related to allergy and isn't dangerous, and while my absolute neutrophil count was normal, the actual percentage was slightly low... which made me think maybe the nitrous was at fault except my b12 in every form was normal plus my doc said that was okay so
 
I wonder if at some point with advancing technology and consequent easy availability of (currently) expensive technology such as decompression chambers and rare gas distillation apparatuses, we will get some noble gas connoiseurs who can tell us the finer differences between the intoxicating effects of the other elemental gases... :sneaky: "Nitrogen narcosis" obviously is a known phenomenon experienced by deep sea divers, although nitrogen is not narcotic at standard atmospheric pressure. But perhaps it would be in an artificially pressurised but still breathable environment such as a decompression chamber? I've read in fact that Argon is also narcotic, in fact even moreso than nitrogen, and in fact all the noble gases are most likely narcotic except for Helium and Neon.

Presumably this means Krypton would also be narcotic - and, yep, according to a quick check on Wikipedia this is in fact correct, and at standard atmospheric pressure! :D
Krypton is considered to be a non-toxic asphyxiant.[44] Krypton has a narcotic potency seven times greater than air, and breathing an atmosphere of 50% krypton and 50% natural air (as might happen in the locality of a leak) causes narcosis in humans similar to breathing air at four times atmospheric pressure. This is comparable to scuba diving at a depth of 30 m (100 ft) (see nitrogen narcosis) and could affect anyone breathing it. At the same time, that mixture would contain only 10% oxygen (rather than the normal 20%) and hypoxia would be a greater concern.

Unfortunately I couldn't find any actual reports of it's intentional use in humans. I guess it's likely because it's not as effective as Xenon but is also rare and expensive and useful for a variety of other useful commercial applications.

The trend seems to be that gases with a higher atomic weight are more narcotic than lighter ones, so in theory Radon should be even more narcotic than Xenon, although the radioactivity and lack of any stable isotopes is obviously an issue... still, perhaps in the future with some even more exotic technologies such as genetically engineered Deinococcus radiodurans-esque radiation resistance, some pioneering future generations of psychonauts will be able to tolerate the radiation exposure... or perhaps some other pioneering psychonaut on their death bed might one day grace us all with an experience report of Radon. ;)

In reality I expect they are all very similar, but, it's fun to speculate about, and perhaps likely there are some subtle nuances to each of these psychoactive elements.

Finally there is Oganesson, the most recently discovered "noble gas" that is actually (probably) a solid at room temperature, with a boiling point of ~177 Celsius, and with it's most stable isotope (Og-295) having a half life of less than 1ms... a challenging drug to imbibe for sure. Just because I really wanted there to be some way humans might one day experiment with this likely entirely artificial superheavy elemental dissociative intoxicant, I did some digging and found an as yet unsynthesised isotope, Og-313, is theorised to be more stable. Probably still not very, but perhaps with more advanced particle accelerators and "breeders" of more novel superheavy elements we could get somewhere closer to the second range rather than milliseconds... still a very challenging substance to imbibe, and would require some pretty heroic rewiring of the human genome, almost from the ground up, to tolerate inhaling scalding gases with atoms that promptly explode in countless tiny blasts of toxic radiation while diffusing through your bloodstream. Maybe something that would require almost a whole body and brain transplant immediately afterwards just for a few short seconds of experiencing the most narcotic elemental gas currently known to humans, but, we can dream...
 
In light of N₂O bans happening right and left, and with widespread legalization of weed and possibly some other things, nos and some other things are bound to be banned in many places. For those of you who wonder what about whipped cream? Well in my country many use pre-maid cuz otherwise many bars and restaurants would need to get much more than needed for cream so even banning it everywhere expect in labs isn’t impossible.

Xe is expensive but not so much that it shouldn’t be much more prevalent. If shitty war didn’t happen I would surely be getting some from Russia where price was ok. Hell, even going to Russia with sole idea to do Xe would be a great experience for sure.

But is Xe really safe? Might seems so but be sure not to make same mistake as bluelighter who destroyed his life with N₂O cuz he had no way of finding out what possible consequences of abuse can be. So even Xe is inert gas, nothing guarantees excessive use wont lead to any kind of serious problems ranging from psychological addiction up to serious physical harm! It might be one of the safest or even safest drug out there and that still doesn’t mean that percent of people wouldn’t get their lives destroyed, given enough time and enough Xe. All that taken in mind, together with N₂O being researched as depression cure, one hour of exposure once pre week, Xe used in that manner or less would be more or less a safe bet. I’m also sure that inhaling pure Xe compared to inhaling it in mix with O wouldn’t produce same effects as it’s kinda bong vs joint and even ROA stays the same it wont produce the same effects because of how much hits the brain at once and I’m willing to bet that both nos and Xe when mixed with O gives more pain relief that way while inhaling them pure gives more of a high.

Did you ever noticed how when whip bottle gets full of black stuff, you can press to release gas after waiting enough and you can do it many, many times. That simply means black stuff dissolves N₂O and probably in a same manner dose in lungs and slows absorption. There is no other explanation for people claiming lab-grade nos is much, much better, anything else doesn’t make sense as people report a lot stronger experience from lab-grade, not only lack of headache or whatever some experience with whippets.

I also noticed somewhat dangerous trend and got reminded of it reading this thread. N₂O with K or other dissos, back in days before I dropped out from net for some time, many people strongly advised against that because of neurotoxicity. While I did try K + N₂O and had a wonderful experience with a group of people doing same, we all agreed that something does feel off with that combo (much more than for example with ether in combo with K) and that while it’s pretty great, risk of frying brainz just isn’t worth it. So just a reminder K (and possibly other dissos) with N₂O are better avoided.

So anyone yet to got chance compare N₂O and Xe in vivo?
 
@G_Chem:

Eeek. Looks like it should've been since 2000! :oops:

Thankfully I just discovered the bliss so not too much damage done but I was prepared to hit it hard this summer.. This information came just in time.

On a side note, the one experience where I tried the two recently in higher doses I noticed neuropathy to cold the day after until I consumed some b-12. I just chalked it up to the larger than average nitrous dosage but maybe the combo had influence. It was shocking how much I felt it considering how little I did though.

-GC
 
Xenon is neuroprotective...
 
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