"Xanax - More Addictive Than Heroin" short documentary

[Burnt Offerings]

^ Actually, beta-blockers and clonidine do cause a physical dependence if used in large doses. If you quit them without tapering, your blood pressure can rise dangerously as a "rebound" effect.

That's a good point. In a psychopharmacology book I own, in the chapter on benzodiazepines the doctor who did the write up mentioned that the issue of tapering down a patient's dosages under medical supervision when they'd like to discontinue use is similar to the tapers involved in certain heart medications.

 

[nuttynutskin]

physically dependent.

And yes we are.

Being physically dependent isn't the same as physically addicted. I think I made my point pretty clear. People just want to be know-it-alls.

 

[belligerent drunk]

Being physically dependent isn't the same as physically addicted. I think I made my point pretty clear. People just want to be know-it-alls.

What does "physically addicted" even mean? Physical dependence can be defined as a situation wherein a person can't function properly (or even survive) in the absence of a certain substance. There is no difference if its insulin for diabetes or a benzodiazepine for GABAergic withdrawal. A physically dependent person can't just stop taking their drugs whether they enjoy them, want to take them, or not.

A psychologically addicted person needn't be physically dependent. Psychological addiction could be defined more as a burning desire/psychological need to use a certain substance.

But physical addiction? Not sure what that means.

 

[kx_]

Any pleasurable activity can affect the dopamine reward pathway, not just specific drugs. Behaviours like gambling, sex, hoarding, eating, etc. can be addictive.

Don't forget porn.

 

[manboychef]

Comparing benzos to heroin, or benzos to stims is like comparing apples to oranges. Yes heroin and stims release massive amounts of dopamine all at once...but for some people, myself included, just having relief from the intrusive thoughts can be massively pleasurable as well.

consider this: Every day from the time I realized the permanence of death my brain has shown me every single way I could die as the result of any given action. My grades suffered, I spent time by myself in my room, I became hooked on drugs...then enter benzos. I was blown away that I could live normally and think normally. If I touched my doorknob I didn't immediately think of getting into a car wreck. I could fall asleep without worrying about the next day and all the ways a psycho could shoot me at work. My cooking skills became incredible for I no longer was so distracted by how many ways I could slip and have my hand end up in the fryer. Unfortunately, if you take benzos for any length of time you get diminishing returns and need to take more to achieve the same satiety. I started going over my prescriptions and seeking more on the street. I became obsessed about having enough to get through. I had a resurgence of my OCD symptoms. The medication had turned on me. This year I tapered off of it after taking it for many years.

The reason I write this is because a small segment of the population will find so much relief from mental symptoms as to almost feel euphoria, and those that do not will never understand that feeling. For me it was like cleaning the salt of the car window and feeling safe driving for the first time. That is just for me. Most people do not have bad anxiety disorders. Most people will only experience the negative effects such as dulled senses, dulled emotions, sleepiness. For those that have the disorders that cause them not to be able to function it is a godsend, but in no way is it as addictive as heroin or stims in the fact that a vast majority feel amazing from those drugs whereas only a small group of people are capable of feeling amazing from benzos.

This is only my experience and should only be construed as anecdotal evidence.

 

[nuttynutskin]

...

Bleh... I think we're just arguing semantics here. Xanax for me is both physically and psychologically addictive. Comparing it to someone taking some sort of medication that doesn't affect them mentally doesn't make any sense to me.

 

[ro4eva]

What does "physically addicted" even mean? Physical dependence can be defined as a situation wherein a person can't function properly (or even survive) in the absence of a certain substance. There is no difference if its insulin for diabetes or a benzodiazepine for GABAergic withdrawal. A physically dependent person can't just stop taking their drugs whether they enjoy them, want to take them, or not.

Exactly.

One unusually-referenced example that comes to mind is the family of anti-depressants dubbed 'Selective Serotonin Reuptake Inhibitors' (or SSRIs). I was on Zoloft (Sertraline) for a period of ~8 months back in 2006. When I began, for the first 3 to 4 weeks, I felt like complete and utter shit, and only managed to stick with it because of family support. And when the time came to stop taking it, I experienced some very nasty withdrawal symptoms, and get this: I was tapering like I was supposed to (doctor-supervised regime which was followed to the tee). And so, I can only imagine how rough it must be to suddenly stop completely.

A psychologically addicted person needn't be physically dependent. Psychological addiction could be defined more as a burning desire/psychological need to use a certain substance.

This is also why I bring up SSRIs: I have never had the desire or craving to take my Zoloft. It was always something which I did not look forward to. Therefore, I clearly must have been physically dependent, yet at the same time, not psychologically addicted (after all, AFAIK, any cravings come from the mind and not the body).

Now, allow me to turn this example on its head: I used to be an adrenaline junkie and loved my stimulants. I'd crave Cocaine and Amphetamine. I'd go on 3 to 7 day benders (until I ran out of my stash), but apart from feeling down and depressed (mentally), I have never experienced physical withdrawal symptoms as I have with Heroin.

So with all due respect to whomever reads the above commentary, the concepts contained within certainly are not rocket science.

P.S: I know my explanation likely is crude and vague to my fellow BLers who have a comprehensive understanding of the pharmacology and pharmacokinetics of commonly used psychotropic substances (both in a Rx and clandestine/'street drug' context), nevertheless, AFAIK, the aforementioned two components are still fundamentally recognized when discussing drug addiction in simpler terms, are they not?

 

[Felonious Monk]

NSA, it might be splitting hairs but I feel like Xanax is so dependence building, as well as relatively subtle in effect, that the line between use and addiction becomes dangerously thin. Especially because, unlike pain management, Xanax is the IR part of treatment, so it's rarely taken on a regular schedule (and doctors are less likely to prescribe a 2-benzo combo for anxiety).

Personally, that's how I got dependent on benzos. I felt like they weren't doing anything so I was taking more and more. I didn't even think I was taking that much either, because I was taking less than my prescription--but because my Doc was so loosey goosey about prescribing I just had way too much and totally missed the subtle effect of the medication. And I was getting talk therapy at the same time--pretty much textbook case for what treatment should theoretically look like--just nobody bothered to honestly explain to me the effects, limitations, and dangers of benzos--until I was in rehab and somebody else lied out their ass about the "reptilian brain" and how evil ALL drugs were....

 

[neversickanymore]

NSA, it might be splitting hairs but I feel like Xanax is so dependence building, as well as relatively subtle in effect, that the line between use and addiction becomes dangerously thin. Especially because, unlike pain management, Xanax is the IR part of treatment, so it's rarely taken on a regular schedule (and doctors are less likely to prescribe a 2-benzo combo for anxiety).

Personally, that's how I got dependent on benzos. I felt like they weren't doing anything so I was taking more and more. I didn't even think I was taking that much either, because I was taking less than my prescription--but because my Doc was so loosey goosey about prescribing I just had way too much and totally missed the subtle effect of the medication. And I was getting talk therapy at the same time--pretty much textbook case for what treatment should theoretically look like--just nobody bothered to honestly explain to me the effects, limitations, and dangers of benzos--until I was in rehab and somebody else lied out their ass about the "reptilian brain" and how evil ALL drugs were....

Its complex and very difficult to answer so as yet is unanswered.

So we have drugs that are very addicting, but have no phisical dependence.

-Cocain
-Methaphetamine
-reg amp (not very addicting, but can cause addiction)
to name a few

We have drugs that clearly have both
-opiates
-Alcohol

We have benzos which people have different opinions about.

What I feel we need to see to try and get to the bottom of this is a study that looks at relapse rates of people who have successfully detoxed benzos.

I've seen a few people cry and go hysterical when they couldn't get their xanax.

benzo withdrawls like many physical withdrawals are miserable.

I think it is the relief from anxiety and panic attacks that is insanely addictive.

Very true IMO. Desiring relief from symptoms is a drive, but not the addictive drive like you say. With tolerance and resultant increased symptoms this becomes very hard to overcome.

Any pleasurable activity can affect the dopamine reward pathway, not just specific drugs. Behaviours like gambling, sex, hoarding, eating, etc. can be addictive.

Absolutely true and an aspect of this concept I have had trouble with in thought. Does any evidence show that taking benzos to relieve symptoms causes any dopamine reward pathway interaction. If not then I say no way on addiction. Does the reward pathway get stimulated by just temporary relief from stress and anxiety due to benzos?

My god is xanax addictive. It keeps you in an addictive mind state. I'm blown away that in 2016 on BL no less this is even a fucking question. I was addicted to heroin and when I got off they put me on xanax and kpins. Both addictive drugs. This kept me in the addictive mindstate. I used more subs than needed, took more benzos than needed, drank too much, obsessed about new research chemicals, only read about drugs online and nothing else. It helped make my life ONLY about drug use. THAT'S FUCKING ADDICTION! I'm one year clean from that shit I can control my own thoughts now. I was a major drug addict and benzos helped keep me that way. Offended some of you don't think it's addictive. Mods no less. FFS

What else did you do to treat your addiction? Giving a person benzos to treat addiction will not work. They will treat aspects of physical dependence, but do not treat addiction and may may things worse, but this does not mean they cause addiction.

IMO alprazolam isn't really "addictive". Yes it can cause physical dependency but that's not really "addiction", which is defined more by things like "drug seeking behavior" and continually escalating dosages...neither of which are particularly common behaviors among anxiety patients (polydrug addicts who use Xanax as a "complimentary drug" being a different story) If physical dependency = addiction than things like synthetic insulin or heart medication are also "addictive"...I realize that alprazolam is psychoactive and some people find a lot of enjoyment in that, but I feel that those people are a small minority of the overall alprazolam-using population, honestly

Very true. I also think this line is severely blurred in opiate dependent and addicted people. The behavior of Opiate physical dependent individuals often mimics addiction so well that I feel the lines are severely blurred. We need to look at return to use rates of people that have over nine months clean from all psychoactive drugs to get a clear picture. A great portion of the population would be psychologically healthy individuals who got snared on opiates through an injury. I would like to see outcomes of these individuals after they successfully detox nine months.

Don't forget porn.

qft

until I was in rehab and somebody else lied out their ass about the "reptilian brain" and how evil ALL drugs were....

This is unclear.. If its in reference to my limbic system take please elaborate.

 

[nuttynutskin]

Its complex and very difficult to answer so as yet is unanswered.

So we have drugs that are very addicting, but have no phisical dependence.

-Cocain
-Methaphetamine
-reg amp (not very addicting, but can cause addiction)
to name a few

We have drugs that clearly have both
-opiates
-Alcohol

We have benzos which people have different opinions about.

It's not an opinion, it's a fact that benzos create a physical dependence if you take them long enough. I think the people who think otherwise are just ignorant on the matter and never took them long enough to experience any major symptoms or never even took them at all. If you take benzos long enough tho you WILL develop a tolerance and a physical dependence, and as I think I've already said people have seizures and can die from going off of benzos cold turkey. Opiate withdrawal might make you wish you were dead but benzo withdrawal can grant you that wish.

 

[neversickanymore]

^Thats very true, but I was referring to peoples opinions on weather or not they cause addiction. Addiction is a subconscious drive to do something. Hunger is the drive to eat. Thirst is the drive to drink water. hornyness is the sex drive. Drug addiction is the drive to use our docs. etc

 

[nuttynutskin]

As I think I said already for me it's both physical and mental. I think people that actually take it for anxiety disorders are more prone to be addicted because of the relief it brings than someone who just pops a few bars on the weekend at the club for fun. Even just knowing I have my (Xanax) on hand is a relief in and of itself.

I also have to agree with this...

My god is xanax addictive. It keeps you in an addictive mind state.

When my dose was upped from 1mg-2mgs it did a number on my impulsivity and I believe it also contributed to my alcoholism. Now it mostly just keeps me at baseline tho and from going into withdrawals. It's definitely a double edged sword and I wouldn't recommend anyone taking it long term like I have. If I ever want to get off I'm looking at a pretty long taper.

 

[manboychef]

As I think I said already for me it's both physical and mental. I think people that actually take it for anxiety disorders are more prone to be addicted because of the relief it brings than someone who just pops a few bars on the weekend at the club for fun. Even just knowing I have my (Xanax) on hand is a relief in and of itself.

I also have to agree with this...



When my dose was upped from 1mg-2mgs it did a number on my impulsivity and I believe it also contributed to my alcoholism. Now it mostly just keeps me at baseline tho and from going into withdrawals. It's definitely a double edged sword and I wouldn't recommend anyone taking it long term like I have. If I ever want to get off I'm looking at a pretty long taper.

This is how I feel. I think it has the possibility to cause psychological addiction in people that have anxiety disorders. I do see the point you are making [MENTION=276338]neversickanymore[/MENTION] and it is very important to draw the distinction. It is why I look at doctors prescribing benzos for any length of time without exploring other avenues of treatment as only putting a bandaid on a bullet wound.

It is unique to the individual whether you will become psychologically addicted to benzos and take part in classic addictive behaviors in order to continue to use them. It is not unlike opiates in which only 23% of people will develop a psychological addiction, but most will develop dependence. If you take either benzos or opiates for a length of time regularly you will experience withdrawals. It is only the 23% of people with opiates, and whatever the percentage is of benzo dependent people that will actively participate in addictive behaviors to continue their use.

 

[neversickanymore]

It is not unlike opiates in which only 23% of people will develop a psychological addiction,

My guess is that when the psychological addiction is separated from the physical this percentage is likely halved at least

If xanax even does cause addiction then I feel its rates would be less than mj.. thats a big if still in my book, but like 2 to 3%

 

[nuttynutskin]

A lot of posts in this thread are just speculation... Some people are able to use heroin occasionally while others become horribly addicted. Everyone's different and what may be addictive to one person might not be to someone else. I don't see the point in trying to guess exact percentages and honestly I feel it's a bit insulting the way benzo addiction is being downplayed here compared to other addictions.

 

[JessFR]

I think our fellow bluelighters whom have long suffered from crippling anxiety, ocd, etc, have made a very good point.

Xanax doesn't do anything for me except for helping with the occasional episode of high anxiety andor stress, and help potentiate heroin (on the off chance anyone here doesn't know, doing that is very dangerous, so either dont do it, or do so only with exceptional precaution and ideally a high opiate tolerance).

But for some here, the relief it provides is pretty much euphoric for them, and if it's euphoric, it can be addictive to at least some people sometimes. So it may not even come close to being as addictive to me, if it is whatsoever, as heroin. But for some who get a lot more benefit from it could easily find it addictive.

As for the terminology, my use of it goes like this...

Addiction - Compulsive need to use the addictive substance, activity, etc. May or may not induce dependence.
Dependence - sudden discontinuation of substance causes impairment, ranging from mild to lethal. May or may not be potentially addictive.

As for stuff like insulin, id say that diabetics are insulin dependence, but not that insulin is dependence inducing.

Addiction and dependence to me are entirely separate things that result in somewhat similar behavior too each other when observed by a third party. But different in cause, underlying biological mechanism, first party subjective experience, and treatment choice.

Although people can be dependent on insult, it's a somewhat different kind of dependence.

One is induced by behavior, substance intake, etc.
The other is induced by disease, birth defect, internal factors as opposed to above being external factors. Only in the former case is a substance the cause, in the other it is a temporary treatment of the cause.

 

[nuttynutskin]

Although people can be dependent on insult, it's a somewhat different kind of dependence.

Assuming you meant insulin that's what I was trying to say a page back but I think you put it better than I did.

 

[sigmond]

i take clonazepam for anxiety and have found it to be more difficult to discontinue than opioids. last time i stopped taking it the world turned into an unbearably sad place. i became paranoid, wasn't eating, refused to leave my house, couldn't sleep, suffered from overwhelming irrational fear; my personality changed, i started speaking in this annoying monotonic voice which made people think that everything i said was sarcastic and had odd mannerisms.

that aside: i would describe the feeling i get from them as relieving or stabilizing, i never considered them recreational nor have i ever felt a psychological craving akin to what i would feel towards opioids; to put it another way; i crave benzos solely to alleviate WD symptoms or dull my perceived reality so i can put up with it - and crave opioids for the euphoria; 'to get high'

 

[JessFR]

Assuming you meant insulin that's what I was trying to say a page back but I think you put it better than I did.

That is indeed what I meant, though come to think of it, it sure seems sometimes like some people are dependent on insulting people.

 

[Felonious Monk]

This is unclear.. If its in reference to my limbic system take please elaborate.

To me it was never 100% clear... their "science" lessons were not intended for those who had understood any college biology or genetics. It worked great to scare kids who had been living on the street lately and needed to hear that no one was capable of taking drugs--it was only a matter of time before the reptilian brain took over and they went on a spree... But it's probably partially my PTSD from the entire experience as well lol

The essence of that point was that even medical professionals don't understand benzos very well, and the new research that's coming out only seems to obscure the view further.