Worries about the forthcoming ban for those with addictions.

[mydrugbuddy]

We have been given plenty of notice at least but currently i still love getting high and cant see myself quitting drugs at all just yet, even though it may be forced on me and everyone else by april 2016 if not earlier. For those that will find my whinging pathetic and soft i apologise, but i just wanted to start this thread, maybe get some different perspectives, and to hear from others that may be 'in the same boat' or a similar one at least.

At the moment i dont have much confidence that i can quit kratom and benzos, i still love getting high so much, im not sure that i can do it, maybe a very gradual taper on the kratom will be the way to go. Im currently taking 40-50g a day over several doses, 10g at at time. I tried stem and vein this week, but i couldnt handle it, I wasnt in the best state of mind, not feeling mentally strong enough for all that opi antagonist stuff, which is kind of like bupe, but there's no relief it just throws you into w/ds, even if it may cut the time of kratom w/ds and feeling shit down to 2 weeks rather than a month or more. The plan now is to either very gradually taper down very low on kratom, or use stem and vein instead if i have an upturn in my mood, then after im off kratom completely, whether by gradual taper or stem and vein, or mixture of the 2, I'll use codeine for 2 weeks to end the taper, and that will override and minimise the final 2 weeeks of the kratom w/ds which can easily last a month, psycholigically and physically.

The w/ds of 2 weeks of codeine will be a peace of piss compared to kratom, physically the kratom w/ds arent that bad, but psycholigically they are a nightmare, at least they are for me, at least one month of depression is to be expected. The days last forever and nothing is enjoyable, Codeine wd/s will be all over in 4 days cos its short lasting and i wont have had a long term habit with codeine. There's no chance that i'll get addicted to codeine as it does FA for me, doesnt get me high atall, so it will be perfect for ending a taper off kratom. So i sort of have at least 2 or 3 different plans for the kratom, its just putting it into action.

I'll have to do it sometime before or after the ban, there's a limit to how much i can afford to stockpile, although the prices are getting cheaper by the day, the vendors are knocking a tenner off many 250gram bags to shift their stock before the ban presumably. If it ends up almost a giveaway like it did with the 2nd generation cannabinoids, when 50g of powder was like £5 or something, it was crazily cheap, virtually a give away. The same thing may happen with kratom with any luck, i will have to keep checking the sites daily.

I can see myself switching straight to DHC tbh the way i feel atm, allthough i may feel more up to it some time before the ban in april. Same goes for benzos there's a limit to how much i can stockpile, trying to stick to 8.5 mg max dayly dose of pyraz and diclaz combined, and reduce further, but its hard cos the 6.5mg bedtime dose i cant even feel it and it doesnt send me to sleep. I know if i do stick to it my tolerance will eventually catch up. But it seems to be taking a fucking long time for that to happen.

Everything's a bit fucked up atm, im not ready for this ban, with 2 addictions to quit, i dont even know which one to tackle first, though ive gathered it makes sense to quit kratom first, as benzos will help out greatly for doing that. Ive been boshing loads of drowsy anti histamines and going crazy for pregabalin, which will still be available post ban.

Mods if you feel this post belongs in another thread feel free to move it (not that you need my permission) but can we see if this thread takes off, with other people with similar concerns, or perhaps anyone with some advice to offer.

 

[DrGreenthumb]

Never mind the kratom, you want to sort out a benzo taper plan, have a read of this site: http://www.benzo.org.uk/manual/

 

[5StarSquatHotel]

To be honest mate I would contact your DSP and or your doctor and tell them everything and do a safe 'official' taper, its prob your best bet and a diaz would be much better to use. I know Diclazepam shows as do most of those r/c benzo I think. If they give you shit just about 'legal highs' you should just say it is diazepam you are using as diclazpeam is very close in several ways and will still show on a test.

 

[DrGreenthumb]

Kratom might have you feeling a bit shit for a couple of weeks, but it shouldn't be a dangerous withdrawal, maybe with a bit of a taper you could miss the worst of the withdrawal. Healthy diet & exercise should make it easier to avoid depression.

Benzo addiction is serious, ideally as 5Star says see a doctor & get a medically supervised taper. If you're not going to do that then at least read the Ashton manual. Sudden benzo withdrawal can cause seizures & possibly death, it's not to be messed around with. Antihistamines are not a good substitute as they wont prevent seizures & could possibly make them more likely.

 

[Ceres]

To be honest mate I would contact your DSP and or your doctor and tell them everything and do a safe 'official' taper, its prob your best bet and a diaz would be much better to use. I know Diclazepam shows as do most of those r/c benzo I think. If they give you shit just about 'legal highs' you should just say it is diazepam you are using as diclazpeam is very close in several ways and will still show on a test.

I concur, instead of stockpiling massive amounts of the drugs you want to quit, go and talk to someone in the medical professional explaining your situation and your desire to safely taper off these drugs, using regulated medicines and not 'dangerous freaky internet drugs' as they will probably see them.

Be patient with tapering the benzos, i know even .5mg drop can feel a lot sometimes but it does take time and is worth sticking with a reducing taper planned over a length of time that takes into account your current usage so it doesn't feel quite bad.

 

[mydrugbuddy]

Thanks for your input folks. I shall be taking everything on-board at this stage. I'm already far more than halfway there with the benzo reductions, and completing that would feel a lot easier if i didnt have this kratom monkey on my back too. I'll be tackling one thing at a time, rather than trying to kick both things at the same time, and definitely will be taking the benzo reductions very gradually. I'll have to seeing how long it takes tolerance to adjust to a lowering of dosage.

I was feeling pretty negative and un-confident when i made that o/p yesterday. What a difference a day makes, as Im feeling far more positive today, and that i can do this without too much difficulty. Fuck, my work colleagues and anyone else who knows me is gonna have to put up with some apparently inexplicable mood swings, but I'll save up my annual leave to get at least 14 days in a row off work, that will see me break the back of kratom's physical hold within a few days and the rest will be all in my head. It'll probably be towards November before I accumulate enough leave, hardly ideal, but there never seems to be an ideal time to break any habit.

 

[Ismene]

I always found the problem with stocking up with something that's addictive is you start thinking "Fuck me, I might as well have em every night for a while".

Stocking up works for non-addictive stuff like mushrooms. I think I stockpiled 15kg when fresh mushrooms were banned.

 

[mydrugbuddy]

Yeah that is a definate hazard Izzy (if i may call you that?). Im still making my plans up from day to day, which isnt really any proper kind of plan. Ive never been much of a one for planning, especially for things like this where your own physiology and psychology is gonna affect progress more than anything else. But yeah it certainly would be a good idea not to stockpile huge amounts of kratom just before the ban, as much as it would be nice to be able to eke it out for months on end post ban enjoying it once or twice a week, i know for sure that things wont work out that way, and Id just end up taking it every day all over again. So the kratom plans are kind of firming up at the moment.

I'll need just enough diclaz and pyraz to taper off with. I have absolutely no confidence that medical/ drug services will help me with my benzo taper (but i know how to DIY it anyway so im not really fussed, id rather not have someone else dictate their timetable to me), last time i rasied the issue the Dr prickled ferociously.

I have since learned by accident and trial and error how to work such subjects into the conversation kind of sideways and not full on, i was offered a bupe script whilst having my anti depressant medication review, so i might broach the subject during my next review. But i tend to be really very obvious, if they detect 'drug seeking behaviour' they'll shut the book on me within 10 seconds. The bupe thing only worked cos it was genuinely accidental, not a 'cleverly prepared' sphiel that they'd see right through.

Clearly the mirtazapine im prescribed is not working for me or i wouldnt feel the need to self medicate with whatever i can get my hands on, just to feel OK. If i can find an AD that actually works for me then that will make quitting kratom a thousand times easier. I might try venlafaxine. Ive tried 3 others, maybe eventually i'll find one that works.

 

[Ceres]

have you tried sertraline? you can take it in combo with mirtazapine, i find the mirtaz helps my appetite and sleeping and the sertaline... i dont know, its the only ssri ive been able to stick with and im sure it does help a little, no noticable sideeffects after a while.

 

[rickolasnice]

Surely there's still going to be sources from over-seas?

If you're addicted to opioids it might be worth looking into a methadone program? Coinciding with a support thing (I'll ask my mate what they're called.. she said they're pretty good although I'm sure she hasn't cut down on the oxy's.. early days) Or just have enough for a quick taper and accept you're gonna feel like shit for a little while.|

As for the benzos.. you could always tell your doc your addicted and the extent? Hope you get a decent one that'll give you what you need to stave off the withdrawals without fucking you up.

I'd be careful stockpiling.. I'm not as much as a fiend as i once was.. i can happily have drugs around the house without immediately consuming them.. but as soon as I'm on them that does out the window. It's easy to look at a huge pile of drugs and revert to the mindset *A little bit more won't hurt* Add infinitum.

I used to be in the mindset *I'm not ready to give up just yet*.. but something come along which made me have to.. I feel SOOO much better for it now.

 

[masaz]

Gonna be a lot of people taking these RC benzos that have no idea they have a benzo addiction I feel, especially in the realms of branded RCs. Wonder how many of them will be going to the doctors and saying 'yep I've been taking these pills and now I feel weird and awful'? A lot of stigma to addiction anyway, I know I felt sort of awful confessing my Etiz problem to the docs whilst knowing how it could harm me if I didn't, what do the people who just consider shit to be legal highs gonna do? Maybe I'm overestimating the problem but I've seen a lot of people on various drugs forums who know fuck all about what they take bar the brand name and effects, and it feels like there's an element of 'it's legal so how bad can the effects/withdrawals be?'.

 

[koneko]

^
You are not wrong to be pointing this out snolly. This has been in the post for some time and its going to be a disaster for so many.

Has the the Ashton Manual been updated to take into consideration the new RC's? I doubt it as the legislation is pushing the innovation of new benzo-like rc's to the edge. The academics can't keep up. People are going to suffer and the health services are going to feel the hit. It's shameful.

 

[Ceres]

I find psychiatrists are better to talk to than GP's about these issues, they have first hand experience of people with addictions to legal highs, they understand the stigma associated with admitting to drug use in the first place, and they understand the pharmacology of the categories of drugs. They are also the best placed to arrange tapers and other helpful measures.

most of all, they have sympathy.

GP's in my experience will treat you like shit if drugs come up in the convo.

 

[masaz]

^
You are not wrong to be pointing this out snolly. This has been in the post for some time and its going to be a disaster for so many.

Has the the Ashton Manual been updated to take into consideration the new RC's? I doubt it as the legislation is pushing the innovation of new benzo-like rc's to the edge. The academics can't keep up. People are going to suffer and the health services are going to feel the hit. It's shameful.

If it hasn't, I'd hope us HR-related sites at least have links up to it. I definitely found the Ashton Manual useful and pretty reassuring when I was coming off etiz, especially the first time round.

 

[Sammy G]

GP's in my experience will treat you like shit if drugs come up in the convo.

Depends on the GP and depends on the context. I missed a blood test through sheer drug-addled fecklessness, and my GP was only too glad to do it for me, despite such work being 'beneath him', and the track marks all over my arms and hands. Our relationship since then has, if anything, been better. I must add that I have a long-term condition which makes drug use all but inevitable, which may also have played its part.

But yes, a lot of GPs tend to be on the lookout for drug seeking, which (if we're brutally honest) is what 75% of Bluelighters (at least on the strength of the posts I've read) would appear to visit their GP for.

 

[masaz]

It depends on the GP and the area, I guess. I saw maybe four different GPs from the same practice to get my script every week and only one was even slightly funny about it, and still gave me it (was sorting out extra script for a week away so fair play I guess). Accept it varies fucking wildly though and is more likely from what I've heard to err on the side of suspicion

 

[Ceres]

it is more the problem of the widespread use of locums, who likely have never met you before and just see your notes 5 mins before you see them.

It is possible to strke up a decent understanding with a GP who you've been seeing for a long time and has a better understanding of the nuances of your particular issues.

so yeah not all GP's bad but a referall to a psychiatrist would probably help a lot more than seeing a GP for drug issues. Psychiatrists can also then refer you to other services and specialised help.

 

[koneko]

it is more the problem of the widespread use of locums, who likely have never met you before and just see your notes 5 mins before you see them.

It is possible to strke up a decent understanding with a GP who you've been seeing for a long time and has a better understanding of the nuances of your particular issues.

so yeah not all GP's bad but a referall to a psychiatrist would probably help a lot more than seeing a GP for drug issues. Psychiatrists can also then refer you to other services and specialised help.

We're talking about 2 things here and I think it's important to point that out..and separate the conversation for clarity.

1. Psychiatric profession understanding of the RC market and its impact on Mental Health(MH)
2. GP management of the "holistic" persons' health with drug MH issues

both can prescribe, and we should not fanny with those who really are in the HR game, just saying...



of course I've posed those Q's wrong... can we ever sort that?

 

[mydrugbuddy]

The discussion is broadening out like i hoped it would. I didnt want this thread to be all about me, but I cant help but post about how the ban will affect me, along with trying to make some less self centred points too i hope.

Ive not mentioned my 'recreational drug use' during the last 2 years or so of quarterly medication reviews, and the Drs never raise the subject. Presumably they are not checking my history at all. Im not complaining about that, i found on many occasions that as soon as i mentioned drugs it seemed to strike the fear of God into the GPs, and lead to a whole raft of lengthy and very tedious interrogation (after youve been asked and answered the same questions a dozen times) and fact gathering, and ultimately to the GPs washing their hands of me and referring me to drugs services.

As i see it my mental state is a completely seperate issue to my drug taking, i mean i had these feelings before i started taking drugs, drugs become a cumbersome red herring. Allthough obviously in the shorter and medium term drug use can and do affect your day to day MH for better or worse. And long term if you take benzos for too long, or dont taper properly. That is reactive depression and anxiety where there is a clear and obvious cause. I may get reactive depression when i quit kratom, but that would be on top of my pre-existing issues.

The underlying conditions have been there to a greater or lesser extent since my late teens, i feel it would be of most benefit to address those, rather than go back down the drugs services route which i have already spent 18 months doing, they supported me, helped me restore some confidence and self esteem and get back into employment, but all the drugs advice they offered was at best lacking, at worst just plain wrong, due to total ignorance about LHs and even benzo tapers (which i was appalled about).

Without wishing to sound like a know-all (they havent spent several years chatting with all manner of more knowledgeable folk than myself, from all walks of life, with first hand experience (not from fucking text books) that were and still are to be found on here, and genuinely researching these things) I'll keep the drug issues to myself and sort those out myself, Ive tried it their way and it didnt work, it was essentailly trying to brainwash me into "drugs are bad" which i never got fully on board with, maybe making a nuisance of myself on here in the process. (but not too much, as in the contentious train wreck that i helped make of the opi support thread )

I hadnt thought about combining mirtazapine with sert, though i had tried a mirt and buproprion combo which didn't work for me, gave me awful feelings of pending doom, and fear and anxiety levels went through the roof. I think ive blown out my sert tolerance as i was on that before the mirt and they just kept on increasing the dose every time i went in. My tolerance to sert would possibly rise very quickly all over again as i was taking it for several years.The last med review i had the Dr invited me to feel free to do my own research on ADs and provided i had sound reasons for choosing any particular med to try they would be open minded enough to let me try it (providing it was safe without any contra indications). That was far better than another Dr who took huge offence that i had the affrontery to have done my own research. Another Dr admitted that it's a guessing game finding the right ADs, and my guess could be just as good as theirs. Venlafaxine seemed like a good bet last time i did some reading up.

Plus i mustnt underestimate the importance of lifestyle factors that i can change to help myself if things dont get too bad, regular exercise and healthy diet etc can be as effective as any A/D in moderate depression and generalized anxiety conditions. Obviously that wont help if you're severely depressed; suicidal and cant get out of bed. I very rarely have things that bad, getting a job and trying to keep it, has enforced keeping more regular hours (most of the time) and getting out of bed on time on me, Combining the 2 health things with a new AD would surely help.

 

[rickolasnice]

I went to the docs for gbl addiction.. He had no idea what gbl was (and even after i explained he didnt seem to know what ghb was).. I wrote down the full name for him to go and ask other docs in the surgery.. None of them knew.

I basically said i needed benzos (i know baclofen would have been a better shout) and he wrote me out a script for a sleeve of 2 millies..

At the end of the day its their job to advise you on what the best course of action to take.. Not tell you you what you HAVE to do. Even if turbed away with nothing.. You can always see another doc and hope they see things differently.

If all else fails and you do go into withdrawals you"ll probably be able to get an emergency script from A and E.. Ffs dont go in there trying that as a precautionary move while on them they will probably realise and red flag you.