• N&PD Moderators: Skorpio | thegreenhand

Will a Dopamine Antagonist reduce the stimulating effects caused by Dissociatives?

im in a couple kratom groups, one of which has been ordering and gc/ms testing every available sample of hirsuta and javinica. so far 0 have come up correct, one sample was indeterminate and all of the others were positive for mytraginine etc. vendors are just repackaging shite kratom and selling it as "hirsuta or javinica" probably to circumvent local bans as well
yeah, I'm sure that happens in a lot of vendors but here in Europe there's barely any vendors that sell javanica so I don't think they could risk themselves to sell crap, unnecessarily, specially because they have very short batches, a couple kgs and that's all. They don't offer it again in a loooong time.
My javanica smells different, tastes different and feel different than regular kratom.
 
(R) ketamine is a pure DRI. My wife got to try it and said it was like coke. In my opinion, people selling the stuff might profit from separating the isomers.
 
While kratom likely contains D2 antagonists, the chemistry and pharmacology is fairly complex. I suspect that the alpha 2 adrenergic antagonism would likely be counterproductive for reducing the stimulating effects of dissociatives.
 
I've never really fucked with the red strains though I might give it a go....my experience with every green or white strain even in high doses (10g with no tolorance)
I'm pretty much as stimulated as taking any strong stimulant.
The last time I took some White Maeng Da which was a few years ago ....I was absolutely wired for a good 14 hours and needed a hefty dose of etizolam to get any sort of sleep....probably my red strain is more relaxing....might try some tonight just to see if it helps me sleep.
 
D2 antagonists - do you mean neuroleptics? A prominent side-effect of those is that they commonly cause akathisia so they aren't a GOOD idea unless really needed.
 
Yeah, Kratom supposedly contains one or more D2 antagonistic compounds. At least one paper tells that it was active at D2 in similar way to antipsychotics. I guess it either isn't strong enough to cause akathisia or other activities work against that. But when I was on memantine (being also a D2 agonist) and took some kratom I felt dysphoric not unlike some mg of olanzapine.
 
Yes - Just for the record, I think neuroleptics are the cheapest, not the BEST treatment by a country mile. After all, they knock 10 years off life expectancy, cause a huge array of side-effects (many requiring MORE medications) and make people feel AWFUL.

I have read of kratom increasing dopamine release (briefly) but not for D2 antagonism.


Of course I am happy to read more papers. My experience is that animal models can be WAY out. Obviously 1 report isn't statistically useful BUT equally, if it causes dysphoria for you, IS that usual? I haven't read other reports mentioning it (but I may well have missed them).
 
Doxepin is a rather toxic tricyclic and is being phased out in Europe. It's only prescribed to people already taking it BUT use as a sleep aid is really not a great idea.
 
sorry for bumping an old thread but my .02c (AUD so worth less):

I get IV ket infusions twice a year for chronic pain. I'm on the drip for a week at a time as an inpatient, between 20-24mg/hr depending on my body weight at the time (I am very skinny), I think that's about the equivalent of 50-60mg intranasal. Not a hole dose obvs but you are very much off baseline for a *long* time. +/++ for a week straight - it gets stronger at night and meditation can take me some weird and wonderful infinite spaces, CEVs, insane dreams the one time I had temazepam . Anyway. It is SO HARD to sleep on the drip - the first time I had t I actually had a nervous breakdown by day 5/6 because I'd barely slept so in combination with the dissociative effect and the sensory overload nightmare that is a hospital room without a door i was losing my mind. For admissions after that i got charted for a decent amount of valium, 10mg 3 times daily. While on it I can't have any caffeine or cannabis - yes they let you have it as an inpatient if it's been prescribed! - because it just sends my body into overdrive, even with valium. Heartrate and blood pressure will both increase along with significant anxiety.

I also get charted for, but have not yet used, low dose haloperidol 0.5mg, which I was told for anxiety caused by the dissociative/psychedelic effects of the ket. I thought perhaps that might have been the same overkill school of thought that has docs prescribing seroquel for anxiety but reading this thread seems like it is in fact specifically targeted to block the dopaminergic effects thereby reducing the psychedelia but also the stimulation. Interesting. Perhaps I might try it on the next infusion in October as insomnia is already kicking my ass in my nice controlled home environment.

PS What effect might the haloperidol have on my body temperature? I have a tendency to feel quite hot on the drip - my body temp will stay raised .5-.7C above my norm which isn't a danger but is quite shit for sleep as well.
 
Doxepin is a rather toxic tricyclic and is being phased out in Europe. It's only prescribed to people already taking it BUT use as a sleep aid is really not a great idea.

what is toxic with doxepin. its old for sure but still prescribed over here for example in managing alcoholism.
 
sorry for bumping an old thread but my .02c (AUD so worth less):

I get IV ket infusions twice a year for chronic pain. I'm on the drip for a week at a time as an inpatient, between 20-24mg/hr depending on my body weight at the time (I am very skinny), I think that's about the equivalent of 50-60mg intranasal. Not a hole dose obvs but you are very much off baseline for a *long* time. +/++ for a week straight - it gets stronger at night and meditation can take me some weird and wonderful infinite spaces, CEVs, insane dreams the one time I had temazepam . Anyway. It is SO HARD to sleep on the drip - the first time I had t I actually had a nervous breakdown by day 5/6 because I'd barely slept so in combination with the dissociative effect and the sensory overload nightmare that is a hospital room without a door i was losing my mind. For admissions after that i got charted for a decent amount of valium, 10mg 3 times daily. While on it I can't have any caffeine or cannabis - yes they let you have it as an inpatient if it's been prescribed! - because it just sends my body into overdrive, even with valium. Heartrate and blood pressure will both increase along with significant anxiety.

I also get charted for, but have not yet used, low dose haloperidol 0.5mg, which I was told for anxiety caused by the dissociative/psychedelic effects of the ket. I thought perhaps that might have been the same overkill school of thought that has docs prescribing seroquel for anxiety but reading this thread seems like it is in fact specifically targeted to block the dopaminergic effects thereby reducing the psychedelia but also the stimulation. Interesting. Perhaps I might try it on the next infusion in October as insomnia is already kicking my ass in my nice controlled home environment.

PS What effect might the haloperidol have on my body temperature? I have a tendency to feel quite hot on the drip - my body temp will stay raised .5-.7C above my norm which isn't a danger but is quite shit for sleep as well.
I dont think neuroleptics affect temperature, however I want to say haldol is a horrible drug even low doses ime , dont want to scare you but be prepared for side effects such as akathisia and acute dysphoria.

It's best to have artane or akineton on hand or diazepam.

Still think haldol for anxiety is bullshit, considering ketamine is anxyolitic of itself; you completely detach from the emotion fear while under the influence
 
First time I heard that

I’ve seen the usual cases in psychiatry on 25mg, barely able to walk or able to smoke a cigarette, but on 5mg I had 2,5 nice hours, slightly sedating, nice bodyload I was surprised. Then I had 15mg olanzapine, disgusting stuff that rather makes you feel psychotic. Quetiapine 75mg and prothipendyl (don’t know the dose) were really nice though. That’s it with my nl experiences.
 
im charted for .5mg not 5mg. Literally the smallest dose you can have. In any case I've always been fine with benzos. The headspace can just get a bit wearying after multiple days
 
I dont think neuroleptics affect temperature, however I want to say haldol is a horrible drug even low doses ime , dont want to scare you but be prepared for side effects such as akathisia and acute dysphoria.

It's best to have artane or akineton on hand or diazepam.

Still think haldol for anxiety is bullshit, considering ketamine is anxyolitic of itself; you completely detach from the emotion fear while under the influence
is there another dopamine antagonist drug I could ask for? I'm a regular user of metoclopramide for nausea/gastroparesis so might that help without fucking me out too much?
 
If it is the dopamine component that is stimulating then seroquel should work well. I never found anything more effective at obliterating residual cocaine effects.
 
i'll ask them in my next admission then, haloperidol is just what was written on my chart but i can have a chat to my pain doctor about it. I'd certainly prefer to be discharged with some seroquel as handy trip killers
 
Regarding optical isomers, only arylcyclohexylamines that are substituted in the cyclohexane ring in positions other than the one opposite where the aryl and amine groups are attached, are optical isomers. It has to do with going one way around the cyclohexyl ring being different to going the other way around (ie if the cyclohexane ring is symmetrical, about an axis running from carbon with aryl and amine group attached, to the one diametrically opposite, optical isomers don't exist).
Be much easier if I could post a diagram!
 
only arylcyclohexylamines that are substituted in the cyclohexane ring

any experiences with anything else than the usual ketone. wiki features an older ach with a methyl group attached. im not sure but i believe i got the oxime sold of o-pce once. not that great. feels like glue in your brain.
 
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