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Esoteric Why is writing on psychedelics so weak?

So are you saying the religion was already established and then someone took psychedelics and..what? Added to the religion that was already there anyway? The problem I have with that is that people who take psychedlics often think its the only way of feeling mystical. It isnt. Lots of people feel mystical walking in the woods or playing golf or just seeing a sunrise. You dont need drugs at all.

Im always a little wary of people claiming to know lots about religion whose default position when someone disagrees with them is to start name-calling. Maybe my numbers are bullshit but the point is its vanishingly small. The drug survey in mixmag showed the number of young people who take psychedelics in the uk was incredibly small.

But you did argue with me about ram dass for pages and pages years ago right? When I was saying he palmed the LSD instead of taking it? And you said "But he told ram dass to watch this closely and put it the acid onhis tongue". And I said what does every sleight of hand guy say? He says "watch this closely".Or was that someone else?
 
So are you saying the religion was already established and then someone took psychedelics and..what? Added to the religion that was already there anyway? The problem I have with that is that people who take psychedlics often think its the only way of feeling mystical. It isnt. Lots of people feel mystical walking in the woods or playing golf or just seeing a sunrise. You dont need drugs at all.
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I already explained I think psychedelics played a role in the genesis of religion. Medicine men and shaman were using plants and mushrooms to communicate with the spirit world since before recorded time. And yes, I know lots of people who take psychedelics think they are the only way to have mystical experiences and they tend to think anything that has any sort of mystical bent must have been a result of psychedelics. I'm not saying that and I'm not one of those people who believes all religion came from psychedelics, I just think psychedelics played a role, at least in some religions. I mean, the vedas for example continuously reference Soma so it's pretty clear to me they were drinking Soma at the times those things were written.
 
Im always a little wary of people claiming to know lots about religion whose default position when someone disagrees with them is to start name-calling. Maybe my numbers are bullshit but the point is its vanishingly small. The drug survey in mixmag showed the number of young people who take psychedelics in the uk was incredibly small.
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I don't know what you mean by "incredibly small" but I can tell you that here in the USA there is quite a large interest in psychedelics among the youth and while it's still a minority of people using them, it's a larger enough percentage that we are talking about millions and millions in this country alone. Like I said, just at my current job I've met 5 people who have used them and I met a couple of people at my old job. The chances of meeting this many people who use psychedelics would to borrow your term, vanishingly small if there were not a fair amount of users. Even my doctor told me he's done ayahuasca. Perhaps they are not as popular in the UK?

But you did argue with me about ram dass for pages and pages years ago right? When I was saying he palmed the LSD instead of taking it? And you said "But he told ram dass to watch this closely and put it the acid onhis tongue". And I said what does every sleight of hand guy say? He says "watch this closely".Or was that someone else?
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I believe that was me and from what I recall he gave his guru LSD multiple times and one of the times he saw him the acid on his tongue. You could be right though, I no longer wish to argue that point.
 
Which religions are we talking? You mean stuff like sacred mushroom and the cross? Jesus was a mushroom?

If the number of people taking psychedelics is small, the number who enjoy them even smaller and the number in a position to form/influence a religion even smaller - its pretty slight odds.

Im not sure about psychedelic use anywhere outside of limited areas in mesoamerica. Mushrooms, peyote, ayahuasca - yeah I can see small cults forming around them. They arnt going to influence any bigtime religion tho. Europe, Africa, India - I think its reaching to claim much psychedelic use. What was soma suposed to be?
 
It only takes one person to start a religion. If Buddha tripped, then all of Buddhism would be influenced by psychedelics.

As for what religions, I already said Hinduism obviously it's documented in the vedas themselves they were using Soma, Zoroastrianism, Buddhism possibly, Christianity (see, the Sacred Mushroom and The Cross), the Eleusinian Mysteries as well as various other cults and sects that could be put under the broad term Paganism.

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Takes a few more people than that - the bible was written by god knows how many people over hundreds of years - after jesus was long dead

So are you saying the religion came from the drug or that some hindus smoke dope now and again?

Btw, the sacred mushroom and the cross is one of the most ludicrous books Ive ever flicked through. If the author told me it was raining I would go to the window and check.
 
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Ismene2 said:
Takes a few more people than that - the bible was written by god knows how many people over hundreds of years - after jesus was long dead

So are you saying the religion came from the drug or that some hindus smoke dope now and again?

Btw, the sacred mushroom and the cross is one of the most ludicrous books Ive ever flicked through. If the author told me it was raining I would go to the window and check.
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As I said, the vedas were written under the influence of Soma. To me that means Soma played a role in the creation of Hinduism, end of discussion. If you want to look at it is as some Hindus smoke dope or get high or whatever that's fine that's your perspective.
 
Oddly enough, in my opinion, one of the best books written about the beginning of the "LSD counter-culture" was written by a Tom Wolfe, who wasn't a consumer of LSD at all. But provided some of the most interesting anecdotes and insights in "The Electric Kool-Aid Acid Test." It is a controversial book for a number of reasons, but captures an interesting set of observations of the time and of many "seminal" figures of the era.
 
burn out said:
As I said, the vedas were written under the influence of Soma. To me that means Soma played a role in the creation of Hinduism, end of discussion. If you want to look at it is as some Hindus smoke dope or get high or whatever that's fine that's your perspective.
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Any evidence? Every reference to it is so vague as to be meaningless. It's like Nostradamus - whatever you want to believe you can find proof of it. When really there's nothing there. It could be an unknown psychedelic, it could be a metaphor, it could be alcohol. In the end - who cares?

Its not all religions then? just this one vague hindu reference to something that nobody has any idea what it even was. Not a lot to base an argument on is it.

I never bought Wasson's or Mckenna's ideas - it sounds like someone desperately trying to give psychedelics a bigger role than they ever had for some reason. Maybe to make them seem "acceptable" to the mainstream. I prefer the idea put forward in the book Shroom - that outside a few areas in mesoamerica the only time psychedelics have been used by anyone is in the last 100 years. That makes a lot more sense. There's a few shitty drugs like amantia and ibogaine had some use in other places I suppose.
 
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Ismene2 said:
Well, religion is universal. So it has to have it's basis in something with a universal appeal. That means the simpler it is the more successful you will be. You need something everyone is going to feel - like the fear of death. Psychedelics appeal to a vanishingly small number of people so they can't be the basis of religion. If only 2 people out of 10,000 enjoy something you can't form a religion out of it. Y'follow?

And your assumption is everyone reacts to psychedelics in the same way - "Oh dude, I saw God" or they have some kind of religious experience. That's not the case is it. Even today most people who take psychedelics take them maybe once every so often - maybe just once in a lifetime. The vast majority of people who take psychedelics go "Oh that was interesting" but most of the time they'd rather get drunk or take coke.

It's a matter of numbers - to form a religion you need vast numbers of people who relate to what you're saying. It's no good if only one in a hundred or one in a thousand people relate to what you're saying. You can't form a religion from that, It's like that "Temple of the inner light" in New York who tried to make a religion from DPT - there were only 2 fucking blokes in the entire religion - and they mainly did it so they could fuck young girls they could promise drugs to.
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Religion is not universal....if that were true you would be religious and there would be no atheists.
You are talking about ORGANIZED religion which is essentially a cult that dictates you what your personal relationship with the divine/infernal should be.
My religious beliefs are for myself only because the only true religion is between you and the divine and or infernal.
The only true blasphemy is for someone else to tell you what your personal relationship and beliefs between you and God (beyond infinity) must be.
This is different than spirituality and is much more personal.
A single individual can form there own religion and have no other members....I know because I'm one of them.
I've spent decades involved with many divergent occult and esoteric religious groups because I very much wanted to understand all I could about the true nature of religion, magick and cults.
I walked away with a very deep understanding of how and why such groups and individuals function and it helped me form a synthesis of my own belief system which in the end I feel must be vitally personal.
 
I suppose the other point is with religion having such a terrible and malign influence on humanity, Id like to think psychedelics are the complete oposite of all religion.
 
Ballz_Trippington said:
Religion is not universal....if that were true you would be religious and there would be no atheists.
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I mean back in the day Ballz - primitive man times. Not now cos we know it's bollocks but 2000 years ago every culture had some kind of religious underpinning to it - even the fucking eskimoes and you know damn sure those frosty looking mammyrammers wern't on no shrooms..

Surely if there is a God it's just your own brain? That's why it's so essential to take psychedelics - so you can smell your own brain..
 
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Ismene2 said:
Surely if there is a God it's just your own brain? That's why it's so essential to take psychedelics - so you can smell your own brain..
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The Intelligence that created the universe if it exists must quite obviously be beyond humanity and our brains....are brains are only able to perceive a fraction of reality and incapable of understanding the true nature of infinity though we can prove mathematically thst infinities can be larger or smaller (Aleph Null) we are hardly infants in our understanding of reality.
So no, I disagree that God is only our brains....though the concept of Boltzmann brains is pretty interesting.
 
Ismene2 said:
Any evidence? Every reference to it is so vague as to be meaningless. It's like Nostradamus - whatever you want to believe you can find proof of it. When really there's nothing there. It could be an unknown psychedelic, it could be a metaphor, it could be alcohol. In the end - who cares?

Its not all religions then? just this one vague hindu reference to something that nobody has any idea what it even was. Not a lot to base an argument on is it.
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. I never claimed it was all religions and I listed multiple examples, beyond just Hinduism. It only takes one example to prove my point but I don't have absolute proof. If you do research and see the connections, you'll find plenty of evidence of psychedelic use by ancient societies from Egypt to Siberia but if you want absolute proof then I don't see how you could find it shy of going back in time and living there yourself. If you're going to doubt every reference and connection, then considering thousands of years have gone by, you're going to have a hard time meeting your standard of proof without time travel.

Ismene2 said:
I never bought Wasson's or Mckenna's ideas - it sounds like someone desperately trying to give psychedelics a bigger role than they ever had for some reason. Maybe to make them seem "acceptable" to the mainstream. I prefer the idea put forward in the book Shroom - that outside a few areas in mesoamerica the only time psychedelics have been used by anyone is in the last 100 years. That makes a lot more sense. There's a few shitty drugs like amantia and ibogaine had some use in other places I suppose.
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Haven't tried ibogaine but I cant agree amanita is a shitty drug, I've had some of my best trips off amanita. It's not as easy to use as other psychedelics but when you get it right the trip is just as good as any LSD or psilocybin trip and tolerance doesn't build nearly as rapidly so you can trip far more frequently than you ever could on LSD. There are tons of references to amanita in European cultures and Gordon Wasson believed it was the main ingredient in Soma.
 
Well you did actually say they played a part in religions gnosis - you didnt specify any single religion. All of your examples dont have any more weight than the soma example tho - sacred mushroom and the cross isnt reliable. Its like saying you will find lots of evidence and references to UFO's or Bigfoot. Sure you will. The problem is its all conjecture and bullshit. If you want to believe it you can.

In private Wasson admitted he had never had a good experience from amantia and couldnt see how it could provide a worthwhile psychedelic experience. And as soon as vodka hit Siberia they stopped using amantia.
 
Psychedelics did not create Hinduism.

Religion is a natural unfolding creation of humanity. A tool for control.

Its all a load of bullshit lol.

God is real though.

Life is very simple and the secrets to it aint hard to find.

We are literally god. The infinite reality multiverse the one infinite energy that is unborn undying. We are the actor and creator.

Free will does not exist. LSD is god.
 
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