Why is weed, especially good weed, so fucking expensive?

[Felonious Monk]

Most people have no idea about it though and go entirely off of look and smell. A lot of growers love it because it increases not only yield but bag appeal to, so they grow more and it sells better. They can easily get away with it because almost no one tests for it, with the exception of some more prestigious dispensaries.

I think a lot of growers will have to revamp their nutrient schedule once testing becomes mandatory or keep to the black market.

Very true. I've really only heard Matt Rize doing education about pesticides in CA concentrates, everyone else, even the good companies like HGH or Prime, are content to just make money (even if they themselves try to use organic material, they don't make a big issue about other people using poison).

It's totally true about dispensaries too, that's why I don't necessarily trust those $xx (two digit) ounces in Colorado. It started with Livwell I believe and they've had the most problems with pesticide/poison use. Organic vs not is always reflective in the price. Locally I can get bud from the discount places that call themselves 30 CAP or 35 CAP to indicate the top price for a top shelf eighth--these are the chemmy places. Others, the prestigious places as you put it, often charge double or close to it, but they often guarantee organic or even veganic grown herb. (if that's too much prices I'm sorry thujone, but it's all public on weedmaps).

I think it's gonna be REALLY interesting in California over the next few years, because a lot of current producers have no chance of going legal, but will probably continue until they get arrested (and then complain about how unfair it is). Shaun Parker's legalization initiative is also SO BULLSHIT, I'm pretty sure I'll be actively working against it.

 

[w01fg4ng]

I don't see LivWell on any recall list, but noone is safe from persecution.

If you live in Colorado and consume medical or recreational pot you can check for yourself.

Just check the batch number and reference it into any one of these companies:
http://www.thecannabist.co/2015/12/04/pesticide-pot-recall-list-marijuana/44711/

harm reduction ftw!

 

[Mafioso]

Very true. I've really only heard Matt Rize doing education about pesticides in CA concentrates, everyone else, even the good companies like HGH or Prime, are content to just make money (even if they themselves try to use organic material, they don't make a big issue about other people using poison).

It's totally true about dispensaries too, that's why I don't necessarily trust those $xx (two digit) ounces in Colorado. It started with Livwell I believe and they've had the most problems with pesticide/poison use. Organic vs not is always reflective in the price. Locally I can get bud from the discount places that call themselves 30 CAP or 35 CAP to indicate the top price for a top shelf eighth--these are the chemmy places. Others, the prestigious places as you put it, often charge double or close to it, but they often guarantee organic or even veganic grown herb. (if that's too much prices I'm sorry thujone, but it's all public on weedmaps).

I think it's gonna be REALLY interesting in California over the next few years, because a lot of current producers have no chance of going legal, but will probably continue until they get arrested (and then complain about how unfair it is). Shaun Parker's legalization initiative is also SO BULLSHIT, I'm pretty sure I'll be actively working against it.

Yes, this is true many of the larger, well organized dispensaries take measures to have organic and well grown bud. I know some even try to question growers on the nutrients used and won't accept from anyone but the grower in order to weed out as much heavy chem bud as possible. But for everyone one of those I have heard of 5-10(from first hand experience) that they buy almost solely based on price and routinely have contaminated product. I know some even pay and charge a premium for PGR grown bud because(I believe) they are uneducated about it and do not know how to spot it.. let alone that it is a known carcinogen and banned in food use in many places.

And yeah, I guess that is another way recreational companies can exist at double digit oz's is things like PGRs and other heavy chemicals. It seems to be the way of commercial ag to walk the line on what is legal and what isn't in terms of chemical use in the growing process, they let the government be their quality control instead of taking account of themselves.

I agree that you will likely never find well grown, organic bud for dirt cheap because these growing methods are, to my knowledge, not cheap or easy and often times require the most experience and knowledge. It is much harder to control pests and nutrient levels with organic products versus spraying on chemicals, which are often times terrible for human consumption.. as I'm sure you know.

With as many greenhouses that have been going up and all the advances in greenhouse technology, I don't think we are too far off from starting to see the price of organic bud drop. It seems it might never be as low as chemy bud because of the simplicity using heavy chemicals brings to the growing process, but perhaps with enough awareness organic will become standard and will force innovation.

I like to think that in another 5 years we will all be smoking organic for around the same if not cheaper than what we are paying for "regular" weed., this may be a little optimistic..

 

[Mafioso]

Medical will never be more legitimate than recreational...it's sad but true.

I completely disagree. When medicinal becomes truly medicinal and not half-assed recreational, then price will probably sky-rocket as well as quality. People will probably be demanding entirely pure products, especially those like parents of children with seizures, etc. Once there is wide spread awareness about some of the nasty shit that can be in weed, the true medical community will be the ones demanding the loudest for the purest product.

I don't see LivWell on any recall list, but noone is safe from persecution.

If you live in Colorado and consume medical or recreational pot you can check for yourself.

Just check the batch number and reference it into any one of these companies:
http://www.thecannabist.co/2015/12/04/pesticide-pot-recall-list-marijuana/44711/

harm reduction ftw!

the fact that the list so so large and only coming out now, imo, means that it is likely vast amounts of contaminated product has already been consumed by many people.

 

[Mafioso]

I am surprised to hear this would be remotely common in a medical state, that shit is fucking disgusting. PGR's are banned for use in food crops due to being carcinogenic, I can't imagine they are any better for you when lit on fire and inhaled. Seriously, that garbage is the primary reason that I stopped fucking with commercial bud where I live, most of it is chock full of the stuff. Not only is it bad for you but it adversely impacts the quality of the crop in terms of taste and smell.

As far as I know it is pretty wide spread. IME, only growers really know about it and some even think it is the way to go. They see other people pulling fat yields with PGRs and follow suit. Most don't really question it if they see someone else doing it, especially not when they get "good" results.

Honestly, I think a lot of it has to do with the rap culture that surrounds cannabis. Not saying there is anything wrong with rap, just that it seems like it creates a false notion in a lot of people that they can get rich over night from growing or selling cannabis. One of the more popular clubs in the bay area is owned by the rapper Berner. I've heard a lot of mixed reviews from people about it, and think a lot of it's popularity have to do with branding and the fact that people know who Berner is. Seems like a lot of people look up to him, which if they take what he raps about seriously probably isn't a good thing...

 

[Felonious Monk]

^I'm not so sure about Berner either, I really feel like he's just another asshole trying to make a buck selling weed. Kind of the Bay Area equivalent of B-Real (though I think he was successful first). Either way, hard to feel like he's doing anything good for the medical community--he's just the kind of person that invite people to question the legitimacy of medical cannabis in the first place.

I like to think that in another 5 years we will all be smoking organic for around the same if not cheaper than what we are paying for "regular" weed., this may be a little optimistic..

With the outdoor harvest that just came in I got organic full season buds that tested around 20% right from the farm, and I know they're 100% organic. That's what I mean about meeting people, especially in states that allow home grows--investing time and/or money into someone, not just their product, early in the season helps you out immensely later on (common sense I'd say).

It was cool to pick out my favorite varietals, remembering walking through the garden in June and September, when the plants were just starting to flower and then getting close to finishing.

I completely disagree. When medicinal becomes truly medicinal and not half-assed recreational, then price will probably sky-rocket as well as quality. People will probably be demanding entirely pure products, especially those like parents of children with seizures, etc. Once there is wide spread awareness about some of the nasty shit that can be in weed, the true medical community will be the ones demanding the loudest for the purest product.

They already are demanding the purest product, or at least the best--all the good RSO makers use organic flower. Medicinal products are more available now and coming down in price too, you can get quality whole plant CBD reliably as well.

Have you seen the brand Care by Design in stores near you? They really have the first complete line of medicinal products imo, at least as far as "extracts" go (basically a next generation tincture--instead of being heat activated, they emulsify a CO2 oil into liquid coconut oil at different CBD:THC ratios). And I know all their greenhouses are organic.

 

[Mafioso]

/\ what's RSO? rosin pressed?

I haven't heard of Care by Design, but last time I walked into harbor side they gave me the grand tour and they kept talking about the new products in their edible section. Personally I'm not really a fan of edibles so I never really went to check it out, but from what you describe it sounds a lot like what she was talking about.

The thing about most dispensaries around here is that they come and go really quick. A lot of cities don't allow for store fronts and shut them down frequently even if the owners aren't busted or even fined. There are delivery services popping up left and right, I can go onto craigslist and literally find 5-10 different ads for delivery so long as I have my card every day. Almost none of them look even half-assed professional and almost all look like some dude in his garage with a camera phone. These guys, by definition are a "medicinal delivery service"... which IMO is a bit of an insult to the truly medicinal community and places like harborside that actually take time and spend resource to be compliant with the law.

A more prominent hydroponiv store in my area has recently been shut down after the owner got busted for tax evasion. According to news articles he had deposited over 1.5 million in less than 10k bank deposits, which was all unreported income. Supposedly during the years that he was starting his business lol... he is a few years older than me and I'm sure you can guess what the local rumors are. but these types of guys remind me of berner and more than likely operated under a medical card.

My city announced that it will not even allow cannabis to be grown if permitted and legal in 2016. I guess the way the bill was written it allows for individual cities to opt out.

 

[w01fg4ng]

I completely disagree. When medicinal becomes truly medicinal and not half-assed recreational, then price will probably sky-rocket as well as quality. People will probably be demanding entirely pure products, especially those like parents of children with seizures, etc. Once there is wide spread awareness about some of the nasty shit that can be in weed, the true medical community will be the ones demanding the loudest for the purest product..

MMJ is already the most legitimate it will be currently in CO, that is until it's Federally legal.

MMJ is generally cheaper than recreational here in CO, that is if you don't want to do any shopping.

the fact that the list so so large and only coming out now, imo, means that it is likely vast amounts of contaminated product has already been consumed by many people.

And just imagine how common it is everywhere, where it ISN'T tested.

These poor suckers who rely on someone's word to tell them it's 100% organic is just FAIL imo.

Test or GTFO

 

[Dresden]

Mafioso,

I don't--as a general rule--pay anything for weed or smoke very often. The price I quoted was from my area in the late '90s, when I was really into smoking high grade weed. I understand the price is significantly less nowadays.

The demand still must be off the charts, though, to support even today's prices. I mean, it's an herb, like parsely is an herb. It grows out of the ground for free just like so many other crops!

And smoking marijuana can be addictive, like so many other reinforcing activities. The only reason you don't go into withdrawals from it is that it's half life is so long, at least that's true if animal models are to be believed.

 

[Felonious Monk]

/\ what's RSO? rosin pressed?

I haven't heard of Care by Design, but last time I walked into harbor side they gave me the grand tour and they kept talking about the new products in their edible section. Personally I'm not really a fan of edibles so I never really went to check it out, but from what you describe it sounds a lot like what she was talking about.

The thing about most dispensaries around here is that they come and go really quick. A lot of cities don't allow for store fronts and shut them down frequently even if the owners aren't busted or even fined. There are delivery services popping up left and right, I can go onto craigslist and literally find 5-10 different ads for delivery so long as I have my card every day. Almost none of them look even half-assed professional and almost all look like some dude in his garage with a camera phone. These guys, by definition are a "medicinal delivery service"... which IMO is a bit of an insult to the truly medicinal community and places like harborside that actually take time and spend resource to be compliant with the law.

A more prominent hydroponiv store in my area has recently been shut down after the owner got busted for tax evasion. According to news articles he had deposited over 1.5 million in less than 10k bank deposits, which was all unreported income. Supposedly during the years that he was starting his business lol... he is a few years older than me and I'm sure you can guess what the local rumors are. but these types of guys remind me of berner and more than likely operated under a medical card.

My city announced that it will not even allow cannabis to be grown if permitted and legal in 2016. I guess the way the bill was written it allows for individual cities to opt out.

RSO is ethanol-extracted cannabis oil. You add heat to remove the alcohol so it becomes activated during the production, making it orally active. Because of the extraction process, it seems to give the most complete reproduction of the starting material. This is what people say "cured their cancer." It's excellent for every chronic or inflammatory condition though, I take it every day for my stomach.

Yeah, when I lived in Orange County it was the same way, no regulation for the dispensaries so any storefronts are grey-area at best. As a community (as an industry?) we really have the take the blame for not educating the local populace about cannabis medicine. Some of the same counties that voted against Prop 215 voted against Prop 47 last year in the same proportion. The Central Valley really has not gotten the progress of the urban areas, LA and the Bay have just gained population faster. It's unfortunate but a lot of places are going to lose legal access to cannabis.

MMJ is already the most legitimate it will be currently in CO, that is until it's Federally legal.

MMJ is generally cheaper than recreational here in CO, that is if you don't want to do any shopping.

And just imagine how common it is everywhere, where it ISN'T tested.

These poor suckers who rely on someone's word to tell them it's 100% organic is just FAIL imo.

Test or GTFO

I think he meant "legitimate" as in people actually accept it as medicine. Most people outside the community fail to understand the statement that, "All use is medical." (Denis Peron) That every person using cannabis is making a positive health choice vs alcohol, tobacco or pharmaceuticals. Or honestly, that cannabis is medicine AT ALL. I've heard plenty of progressive people, people who might even support MMJ say it's a scam, just a step towards legalization. Hell, even the president of the ACLU said it a couple years ago, I was pretty pissed at the time (I looked, I couldn't find it in a quick google search).

Is medical taxed in Colorado?

And I'm totally with you on testing. I really have no respect for BHO companies especially that make good profits selling $100 grams or thereabout and make no effort to get lab tests... It's a little different for flower in CA currently but I'm glad they put mandatory testing in the new law.

The demand still must be off the charts, though, to support even today's prices. I mean, it's an herb, like parsley is an herb. It grows out of the ground for free just like so many other crops!

And smoking marijuana can be addictive, like so many other reinforcing activities. The only reason you don't go into withdrawals from it is that it's half life is so long, at least that's true if animal models are to be believed.

I'm going to have to disagree with you there. To grow quality cannabis takes A LOT bigger investment in soil, water, nutrients, etc than parsley. Whether you're growing it for personal use or commercially. Cannabis is like Othello, "a second to learn, a lifetime to master."

Cannabis does not produce withdrawal symptoms because it's not physically addicting. I've never heard anyone claim it's because it has a long half-life. The best scientific argument for why cannabis can produce some discontinuation effects in users is because cannabinoids are tied so closely with proper functioning of the body.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2241751/

 

[ish675]

And smoking marijuana can be addictive, like so many other reinforcing activities. The only reason you don't go into withdrawals from it is that it's half life is so long, at least that's true if animal models are to be believed.

What? I know the study that you got that from, but it failed miserably at explaining what withdrawal from weed actually is. It's even hard to classify it as withdrawal, it's more a lack of intoxicating symptoms; which, duh, goes away a while after you smoke.

ALSO, quality around here in virginia isn't much of an issue, I always thought that our buds were some of the best, because if you're going to import, why import crap, when you can import cream. It's just, if you are going to drive it across the country, with a car trunk full of weed, you want the most bang for your buck, and at least with my group of friends, quality will sell faster than and discount. I've had locally grown, fertilizer free, and also super chemmy crap as well, but, again, maybe im lucky and have the right people, or people are finally starting to understand that out here, where bud is pretty pricy already, you might as well give the good stuff and charge premo prices for it. All this weed talk, I'm going to go wander off and smoke a bowl.

 

[ish675]

And if I am sourced again, I will report it.

 

[w01fg4ng]

Is medical taxed in Colorado?

Yes, but not nearly anywhere near the amount recreational is. That's one major reason why it's easier to find a cheaper deal with medical.


For now, I don't mind the extra leg work I go through to get the same deal, knowing that the money is going to a better place.

 

[David Wooderson]

The answer is the best of anything commands a higher price over the conventional product.

Some medical states charge more than prohibited black markets and that is sad as the legal market should not reflect what a black market commands.

 

[Mafioso]

The answer is the best of anything commands a higher price over the conventional product.

Some medical states charge more than prohibited black markets and that is sad as the legal market should not reflect what a black market commands.

This.

Even if weed were legal there would still be widespread price fluctuation between different grades of cannabis. Just like there is with used cars or anything of the sort.


Also, I agree with FM. As far as I understand, growing cannabis is one of the more expensive plants to grow but also one of the more lucrative... as it seems to be with any sort of vegetation.

 

[Felonious Monk]

ALSO, quality around here in virginia isn't much of an issue, I always thought that our buds were some of the best, because if you're going to import, why import crap, when you can import cream. It's just, if you are going to drive it across the country, with a car trunk full of weed, you want the most bang for your buck, and at least with my group of friends, quality will sell faster than and discount.

Yeah, but there's quality and then there's QUALITY. After a couple seasons in California I realized that even the "best of the best" back East was just what people were willing to part with out West, or were able to grow in illegal states. The BEST never leaves the origin state (or the grower's/broker's hands for that matter--the best is priceless).

You get the most bang for your buck overall by doing a good job on outdoor or green house grows which you can sell as indoor to people who don't know better.

And if I am sourced again, I will report it.

What?

Some medical states charge more than prohibited black markets and that is sad as the legal market should not reflect what a black market commands.

I'm gonna disagree with you there. When I paid top dollar back East, let's call the quality an 8 or 9 out of 10, with a good smell but not overpowering, I can guarantee it wasn't organic, probably still just a basic OG/Sour D/well known strain, and it was coming from a dude just a sketchy/annoying as the cheap stuff.

In California, I could pay that same top dollar price if I wanted to, but I would be in a nice shop that's well lit and provides excellent customer service, it would be organic or even veganic, quality 10/10, overpowering smell, and exotic strains you've never seen. Or I could just buy a better OG than I ever saw before I moved to California for as much as I paid beasters back east (not organic but stanky af).

Comparing legal to illegal is always apples to oranges because your legal provider is paying taxes. And you're not factoring in the cost of arrest/lawyer/possible conviction into the cost of illegal cannabis transactions.

 

[David Wooderson]

Comparing legal to illegal is always apples to oranges because your legal provider is paying taxes. And you're not factoring in the cost of arrest/lawyer/possible conviction into the cost of illegal cannabis transactions.

The liqour companies didn't try and rape ppl with black market prices when prohibition was ended, I don't see why that needs to be the case here.
The dollar amount you pay for illicit cannabis is paying all the hands it crosses and the profits are justified by the risk of dealing with illegal goods.
There is no real risk of growing and selling legal cannabis, the producers essentially stumbled into a market inflated by costs and risks that don't apply to the legal producer, so to them it's just greater profits.
That really pisses me off and I hope people boycott greedy industry leaders and greedy states that want too much.

 

[Mafioso]

A lot of people take their best stuff to dispensaries like harborside that makes it no secret that they are both ready and willing to pay top dollar for top quality buds. In terms of buying, they offer some of the highest prices. It's reflective in their prices, as it has to be.

What people can't sell to dispensaries is usually then shuffled off to whoever is willing.

at least this is my vague understanding....

oh and also I would like to point out that for even same quality buds the dispensaries will probably charge more because they have a much larger overhead.

 

[Dresden]

I just read the last couple o pages of this thread and let me say my faith in the complexity of both the growing and the economics of our current cannabis markets has made me realize that this endeavor makes wineries and making even some world class intoxicant product such as Dom Perignon seem downright simple by comparison and that I have no business comparing this elaborate process to growing parsley, which no one is nearly this passionate about. Now, if only I could smoke some of those buds described as priceless. What do you have to do get a quarter of that short off dedicating one's life to learning this apparently Byzantinely elaborate system that is kind bud cultivation, which I am not smart enough or dedicated enough to even remotely begin to master or even embark upon? Obviously, going to a state that allows small scale cultivation and having world class skills in finding and befriending world class growers is of paramount importance. I have the feeling large sums of cash would only be of marginal utility in procuring such headies as well. Perhaps the barter of fine gemstones and gold would suffice? Anyway I'm joking halfway there, but seriously, you guys are veritable marijuana producing specialist experts who have taken growing herb almost beyond the point of hobby or avocation all the way up to the level of a bona fide lifestyle! Finally, ignoring my genuine awe and admiration for purveyors of your dare I say sacred skill for a moment, what does the acronym PGR stand for?

 

[Dresden]

Then again, and this final point is sort of the kicker, no matter how much you hoard your priceless, manicured nugs, no amount of pot will ever be in danger of surpassing my stellar ice highs, with enough to go around and at a fraction of your sky high prices. Sharing is caring, silly stoners!