Kratom Why does kratom barely work for me and what can I do to change that?

[Mycophile]

I've been on kratom for years and years now daily and can't get off it. Kratom is not a hard narcotic so its not too concerning but it still hits me well. It is not like the beginning but I definitely feel euphoria from it. I think what has helped is that I never took huge doses. If I don't feel it *at all* like you are experiencing, I'll instantly just cut back so I can combat withdrawals but stop trying to get high off it for a couple of days. Usually, I've found no noticeable withdrawal to cutting back greatly. Maybe a slight depression sensation that if I paid attention enough I could notice.

The good thing about kratom is that you can drop your doses very low--just enough to keep the withdrawal at bay--and still be fine. With morphine for example, should one cut their doses back in this same manner--you're going to feel like death and experience very unpleasant physical and mental symptoms. Try cutting back for a while, bite the bullet and see if after a few days the old doses hit again. There's really not much else I can think of. Embarrassing to say that I have been on kratom for 7 years straight now, and dared never miss a day. It is not the kind of drug you can try to get as high as possible on. Its more of a subtle, light euphoria that does return if you moderate your doses to be quite low when you reach that ceiling and then up the intake again.

There is no point in reaching a ceiling effect where no doses are possible to be enjoyable and keep trying to surpass that wall. While kratom is not an opiate per say (depending on which angle you look at the substance from), too many people pound their brains with opiates after that "I don't get high anymore" part of their dependencies, and never make any alterations to their using pattern to allow the euphoria to return. You're going to have to relinquish something for a temporary time period to achieve the same pleasant auras that you once did.

Right, but unlike you (and I'm not knocking you in any way) I'm not dependent on Kratom. You've been taking it for 7 years but I've only used it on and off. I really use it relatively rarely but I used a lot years ago. There were periods where i just took more and more to try to get an effect and I'd continue to as I raised the dosage higher but of course that did come with withdrawal. Then I stopped numerous times and once for well over a year and returned to it without a tolerance and it still worked. Now it does not work.

So, yeah, I tend to think that unfortunately it's probably never going to work for me again, which really kind of bothers me. With my unique issues nothing felt as good as Kratom. I guess I can try it once in a while and see what happens, but mostly I guess I'm probably best off not thinking about it.

 

[Neuroprotection]

Right, but unlike you (and I'm not knocking you in any way) I'm not dependent on Kratom. You've been taking it for 7 years but I've only used it on and off. I really use it relatively rarely but I used a lot years ago. There were periods where i just took more and more to try to get an effect and I'd continue to as I raised the dosage higher but of course that did come with withdrawal. Then I stopped numerous times and once for well over a year and returned to it without a tolerance and it still worked. Now it does not work.

So, yeah, I tend to think that unfortunately it's probably never going to work for me again, which really kind of bothers me. With my unique issues nothing felt as good as Kratom. I guess I can try it once in a while and see what happens, but mostly I guess I'm probably best off not thinking about it.

Please don’t feel disappointed about this. it’s very likely that a reversible and pretty harmless brain change might be responsible, if things like alkaloid metabolism and alkaloid content are ruled out.
One other suspicion I have is dopamine depletion. that doesn’t mean you’ve run out of dopamine, but rather, a combination of psychoactive substances, poor sleep and nutritional/vitamin deficiency can reduce the amount of dopamine available for release in response to pleasurable activities. to address this, you may supplement with high dose L-tyrosine along with B vitamins and inositol. this should work to re-sensitise your dopamine system and hopefully restore the positive stimulant effects of Kratom.
Actually, reflecting on what you have said in your multiple posts on this topic i’ve noticed that when you do get affects from Kratom, they seem to be pleasurable but sedating in nature. this seems to suggest to me that your opioid receptors are working just fine. Note that direct activation of MU Opioid receptors may be largely responsible for actual sensations of pleasure/liking and this can occur independently of dopamine. on the other hand, dopamine is thought to be more involved in mediating the stimulation, motivation and desire as well as increased confidence and diminished sense of risk that come with pursuing rewards. if you are suffering from dopamine depletion, it may be the case that Kratom is generally doing it’s job at the opioid receptor, but there’s just not enough extra dopamine available for release so you can experience the pleasant stimulant effect. i’m not saying that replenishing. your dopamine levels with supplements. Will definitely get Kratom to work for you again, but I would definitely give it a try. Even if it doesn’t work, it would probably improve your responsibility.

 

[Juicewrldfan]

Please don’t feel disappointed about this. it’s very likely that a reversible and pretty harmless brain change might be responsible, if things like alkaloid metabolism and alkaloid content are ruled out.
One other suspicion I have is dopamine depletion. that doesn’t mean you’ve run out of dopamine, but rather, a combination of psychoactive substances, poor sleep and nutritional/vitamin deficiency can reduce the amount of dopamine available for release in response to pleasurable activities. to address this, you may supplement with high dose L-tyrosine along with B vitamins and inositol. this should work to re-sensitise your dopamine system and hopefully restore the positive stimulant effects of Kratom.
Actually, reflecting on what you have said in your multiple posts on this topic i’ve noticed that when you do get affects from Kratom, they seem to be pleasurable but sedating in nature. this seems to suggest to me that your opioid receptors are working just fine. Note that direct activation of MU Opioid receptors may be largely responsible for actual sensations of pleasure/liking and this can occur independently of dopamine. on the other hand, dopamine is thought to be more involved in mediating the stimulation, motivation and desire as well as increased confidence and diminished sense of risk that come with pursuing rewards. if you are suffering from dopamine depletion, it may be the case that Kratom is generally doing it’s job at the opioid receptor, but there’s just not enough extra dopamine available for release so you can experience the pleasant stimulant effect. i’m not saying that replenishing. your dopamine levels with supplements. Will definitely get Kratom to work for you again, but I would definitely give it a try. Even if it doesn’t work, it would probably improve your responsibility.

I agree with this wholeheartedly. I ONLY ever have gotten stimulant effects from kratom. I don’t get ANY sedation whatsoever even at very large doses and 7-OHM isolate does nothing at all for me. So everything you said about the person being sedated is true in that it would mean they are getting opioid receptor activation.

And I agree about the vitamins and L-tyrosine. I have mixed feelings about L-tyrosine to be honest. I hear it has a rate limit and that we usually get plenty of l-tyrosine from meat and milk and things like that. But perhaps in people that are deficient. I haven’t done in depth readings on L-tyrosine yet so I could be way wrong, but I thought I remember @sekio saying that L-tyrosine was basically a waste to take because of its rate limit and we get plenty from our diet unlike magnesium. But again, I do t k ow much about it personally haven’t read the papers

 

[Neuroprotection]

I agree with this wholeheartedly. I ONLY ever have gotten stimulant effects from kratom. I don’t get ANY sedation whatsoever even at very large doses and 7-OHM isolate does nothing at all for me. So everything you said about the person being sedated is true in that it would mean they are getting opioid receptor activation.

And I agree about the vitamins and L-tyrosine. I have mixed feelings about L-tyrosine to be honest. I hear it has a rate limit and that we usually get plenty of l-tyrosine from meat and milk and things like that. But perhaps in people that are deficient. I haven’t done in depth readings on L-tyrosine yet so I could be way wrong, but I thought I remember @sekio saying that L-tyrosine was basically a waste to take because of its rate limit and we get plenty from our diet unlike magnesium. But again, I do t k ow much about it personally haven’t read the papers

That’s interesting. As my second choice replacement for caffeine, I actually hope I respond as you did since I’m not really interested in the opioid effect. i’m looking for my mild pleasant dopaminergic stimulation.
In regards to tyrosine, the rate limit you speak of is the enzyme tyrosine hydroxylase. this is the enzyme that converts tyrosine to levodopa. whilst there is plenty of this enzyme in the brain, I think it’s activity, is heavily restrained and if I remember correctly, quite a few upstream enzymes have to modify it before it is actually activated. of course, this is generally a good thing as it protects from dopamine overload, but also makes sure you can’t get high on L -tyrosine. I think certain vitamins as well as the Russian drug bromantane can increase tyrosine hydroxylase activity to some extent.

If you don’t mind, just want to know a bit more about your experience with Kratom and how its stimulant affects compared with those of caffeine. I would be especially interested to know if you tried the 2 drugs, separately.
Thanks in advance.

 

[Snafu in the Void]

If you don’t mind, just want to know a bit more about your experience with Kratom and how its stimulant affects compared with those of caffeine. I would be especially interested to know if you tried the 2 drugs, separately.
Thanks in advance.

They're very different and hard to compare.

The stimulation from kratom is very unique and much closer to a narcotic than caffeine. It's also a bit difficult to describe. It feels like it has aspects from several drugs like opioids, amphetamines, and white strains can sometimes even feel like a small hit if cocaine. (Just my opinion, it also effects everyone differently)

But you also can't compare it to any of those respective drugs, it just feels qualitatively reminiscent. The kratom buzz is quite complex in nature.

The noteworthy pharmacology is that it releases dopamine, tickles the MOR, and is also a fairly potent alpha2 adrenal agonist.

Kratom has a motivation & antidepressant effect that caffeine does not. It does a lot of things that caffeine does not, including many negatives.

I feel like kratom would best be used as a function stimulant for things like manual labor over such things as desk or computer work. I find kratom to be an amazing performance enhancer for sports. I'm surprised it's not on the banned substances list in sports like a lot of other things are.

Anyways, I find it superior to caffeine in every way... unless you become dependent on it. It has some huge drawbacks of its own like side effects and addiction, which caffeine is generally forgiving in that aspect.

With low tolerance, the stimulation can last 5 or so hours. With moderate tolerance 2-3 hours. With heavy tolerance 1 hour or less.

 

[Juicewrldfan]

They're very different and hard to compare.

The stimulation from kratom is very unique and much closer to a narcotic than caffeine. It's also a bit difficult to describe. It feels like it has aspects from several drugs like opioids, amphetamines, and white strains can sometimes even feel like a small hit if cocaine. (Just my opinion, it also effects everyone differently)

But you also can't compare it to any of those respective drugs, it just feels qualitatively reminiscent. The kratom buzz is quite complex in nature.

The noteworthy pharmacology is that it releases dopamine, tickles the MOR, and is also a fairly potent alpha2 adrenal agonist.

Kratom has a motivation & antidepressant effect that caffeine does not. It does a lot of things that caffeine does not, including many negatives.

I feel like kratom would best be used as a function stimulant for things like manual labor over such things as desk or computer work. I find kratom to be an amazing performance enhancer for sports. I'm surprised it's not on the banned substances list in sports like a lot of other things are.

Anyways, I find it superior to caffeine in every way... unless you become dependent on it. It has some huge drawbacks of its own like side effects and addiction, which caffeine is generally forgiving in that aspect.

With low tolerance, the stimulation can last 5 or so hours. With moderate tolerance 2-3 hours. With heavy tolerance 1 hour or less.

This is worded better than I probably would have and hits all the key points. This inaccurate @nueroprotection.

Now some of its effects depend more obviously on its opioid effects but you may not get th sedation at any dose if you have ever abused hard opioids/opiates.

For me it’s usually all stimulation and mood lift that I find to be productive and better for my adhd than the risk of amphetamine binges. Though I do take breaks and am working on finding other natural ways of treating it that are safer and more practical. It is a social lubricant for me as well.

Just as @Snafu in the Void said, exercise caution with becoming dependent especially if you do get the opioid effects of Kratom. It greatly depends on that one how bad the withdrawls are.

 

[kiely]

MITRAGYNINE and 7-HYDROXY MITRAGYNINE and forty other active compounds that make up KRATOM. But MITRAGYNINE and 7-HYDROXY MITRAGYNINE are the important ones.

Kratom leaves are in the coffee family leaves.

The Scientific Name: MITRAGYNA SPECIOSA. And it's from the evergreen tree in the coffee family RUBIACEAE.

And there isn't any research to say that Kratom can be lethal. However, too much of anything is no good like gluttony.

But Kratom tea can be used to ease people off more serious drugs.

Many if not all of the symptoms and problems that occur with Kratom often occur when mixed with other drugs or prescriptions. So if you are taking anything else at all you might want to focus on that as well or be more aware when mixing it with the Kratom. And to take this into consideration also.

When properly dosed it can help more than harm. Between one and five grams it can help as a stimulant. Higher doses will sedate you and can subtly creep up on you. It gets more dopey and druggy after that and really isn't worth doing too much at all. Fifteen grams is getting into heavy saturations. Try to avoid taking too much of course. If you need energy.

The peak effects can last from two to five hours. But that is just when it is most intense. Tea seems to have a faster onset, it has been said.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
MITRAGYNINE tends to be in a much lower concentration in the in MALAYSIAN grown KRATOM at 12%

Then compared to TY KRATOM leaves at 66%.

So geographic location of the leaf cultivation does make a significant difference.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

HYDROXY MITREJEANINE also in the Kratom is what helps out with pain. It is by way of the MITRAGYNINE alkaloid then. AND is 13 times more potent than morphine.

MITRAGYNINE is not enough for pain and the other alkaloids mixed and properties are needed to get the full effect.

So I guess it comes down to finding the best potencies and ingredients.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Now EPICATECHIN RHYNCHOPHYLLINE compound in kraom helps as an anti-inflammatory and has anti-viral effects.

There can be success stories for helping to reduce withdrawal symptoms and also the use . .of other drugs.

So Kratom barely produces physical dependence BUT does decrease withdrawal symptoms. So therefore it is believed also that people dependent on Kratom are those predominantly predisposed to becoming addicted . . to substances. has a more intensified effect in other words.

According to some research on it. It's supposed to help regulate blood sugar levels too. So you don't have cravings for sugar. Who would even want to eat after tasting that stuff though. But yeah it's supposed to curb the appetite receptors for some reason.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

It's supposed to have the ability to lower CORTICOSTERONE levels. One of the big links to depression. And can be used as a relaxant for stress and anxiety levels. Releases endorphins and helps you feel happy. It is supposed to help you feel more alert and to stay focused. The tea can help out much more with digestive problems by drinking it, however.

You have to find the best dosage level also that you need a result for. Adding lemon to the tea can help to release and enhance some of the effects of the compounds of Kratom.

And hopefully it will help you to be kind and take care of each other. Nothing like a cup of Rx Tea right ! However that being said the tea has less reports of it having side effects compared to other forms of Kratom. But anything in excess over time just might cause side effects.

There is a difference between Kratom and kratom related products. You must find something reputable.

For me the effects seem to feel the same strength as codeine at my correct dosage. And that would be between 1 and 5 grams for my own preference.

 

[tarman]

So is taking like 8 g of kratom and option to see what it does for you? To me this just sounds like straight tolerance. I understand that a two to three gram dose of kratom is low but nonetheless, if your brain has rearranged it's neurons, that doesn't necessarily go away once you cease using something.

 

[Neuroprotection]

They're very different and hard to compare.

The stimulation from kratom is very unique and much closer to a narcotic than caffeine. It's also a bit difficult to describe. It feels like it has aspects from several drugs like opioids, amphetamines, and white strains can sometimes even feel like a small hit if cocaine. (Just my opinion, it also effects everyone differently)

But you also can't compare it to any of those respective drugs, it just feels qualitatively reminiscent. The kratom buzz is quite complex in nature.

The noteworthy pharmacology is that it releases dopamine, tickles the MOR, and is also a fairly potent alpha2 adrenal agonist.

Kratom has a motivation & antidepressant effect that caffeine does not. It does a lot of things that caffeine does not, including many negatives.

I feel like kratom would best be used as a function stimulant for things like manual labor over such things as desk or computer work. I find kratom to be an amazing performance enhancer for sports. I'm surprised it's not on the banned substances list in sports like a lot of other things are.

Anyways, I find it superior to caffeine in every way... unless you become dependent on it. It has some huge drawbacks of its own like side effects and addiction, which caffeine is generally forgiving in that aspect.

With low tolerance, the stimulation can last 5 or so hours. With moderate tolerance 2-3 hours. With heavy tolerance 1 hour or less.

Thank you, I honestly find listening to personal experiences of drug effects just as valuable, sometimes even more so than the information provided on professional websites. taking into account that you and others have said, I think I will leave Kratom as an occasional pleasant stimulant treat and use nicotine as my daily functional stimulant once I have quit caffeine. I know replacing caffeine with pure nicotine sounds stupid, but I can explain if you’re interested. I’ve talked about it in so many different posts, so I’m trying not to bore everyone by repeating myself.

 

[chippermonk]

I feel like kratom would best be used as a function stimulant for things like manual labor over such things as desk or computer work. I find kratom to be an amazing performance enhancer for sports. I'm surprised it's not on the banned substances list in sports like a lot of other things are

That's interesting, regarding being function stimulant for physical activity, because it doesn't really feel that way to me, in my limited usage. A couple times now I've gone out for a bit of strenuous hiking and not liked it. I can't quite describe how it made me feel, but I felt kind of stuffy and overheated and like exercise was less pleasant for me. Even my sweat smelled awful! Normally, exercise is a great high for me. Also, it seems like a strong diuretic, which is not so great when exercising (not that that ever stops me from drinking coffee!) I might give it another try, though. The high itself seems pleasant for being out on the trail.

 

[Mycophile]

Well, I've got good news to report. I'm VERY happy because I took 2 doses of plain leaf Kratom today (and also some extract with the 2nd dose but I'm going to avoid that in the future) and not only did it work for a full 8 hours and both separate doses but I got GREAT stimulant effects.

What did it, and I found this out a few days ago, was being in A DEEPLY fasted state. I have been into intermittent fasting for a while now because it helped me to lose a lot of weight and dramatically lower what were dangerously high cholesterol levels to normal levels.

So, there are different types of fasting. I tend to do one meal a day and what they call "the up and down day approach/alternate day fasting." One meal a day is a 22-23 hour fast with an eating window of no more than 2 hours but you can eat as much as you want in that period and I eat A LOT when I do that.

The up and down day approach is eating whatever you want on whatever schedule you want on your "up days", but on your "down days" you try to stick to about 600 calories and you also generally fast for 22-23 hours as well, so it's still one meal a day but a SUPER small meal.

So I realized I need to lose some weight again and the other day I had a "down day" and just happened to take Kratom the next day before I'd eaten anything and I got decent stimulation for 2 hours, but then for some odd reason for the 2nd 2 hours (it always lasts about 4 hours for me) it went away.

However, I had another down day yesterday and today I dosed and it hit me PERFECTLY. I mean, sure, I've gotten more intense euphoria, but it was pretty much everything I'd expect from Kratom: anti-depressant effects, stimulation, some sedation as well, pain killing effects, and just feeling in a good mood.

During my first dose it was just 4 grams of plain leaf green malaysian (my favorite strain.) For the 2nd dose I took the same amount but also drank a shot of extract I had and also took 2,450mgs of Phenibut. That was also good, but of course some of it was the Phenibut.

Anyways, I got good effects all day. I just think it's odd though cause even though I know you want to take Kratom on an empty stomach, I have had days where I took Kratom after a typical one meal a day or other long fasts and it didn't work. It seems I had to have had VERY little food and been in an EXTREMELY fasted state to get the effect I want. But it did it, and now I know it still works. I will definitely stop taking extracts because I do not want to ruin my tolerance now that I know it works.

So, anyone want to venture a guess as to why I need to be in SUCH a deeply fasted state to get those effects? Like, I'd guess most people who get kratom to work didn't only eat like 800 calories 15 hours earlier. But that did it for me. Now I can't know if it will work every time, but at least I know I don't have some bizarre down regulation or whatever most likely.

 

[someguyontheinternet]

Please don’t feel disappointed about this. it’s very likely that a reversible and pretty harmless brain change might be responsible, if things like alkaloid metabolism and alkaloid content are ruled out.
One other suspicion I have is dopamine depletion. that doesn’t mean you’ve run out of dopamine, but rather, a combination of psychoactive substances, poor sleep and nutritional/vitamin deficiency can reduce the amount of dopamine available for release in response to pleasurable activities. to address this, you may supplement with high dose L-tyrosine along with B vitamins and inositol. this should work to re-sensitise your dopamine system and hopefully restore the positive stimulant effects of Kratom.
Actually, reflecting on what you have said in your multiple posts on this topic i’ve noticed that when you do get affects from Kratom, they seem to be pleasurable but sedating in nature. this seems to suggest to me that your opioid receptors are working just fine. Note that direct activation of MU Opioid receptors may be largely responsible for actual sensations of pleasure/liking and this can occur independently of dopamine. on the other hand, dopamine is thought to be more involved in mediating the stimulation, motivation and desire as well as increased confidence and diminished sense of risk that come with pursuing rewards. if you are suffering from dopamine depletion, it may be the case that Kratom is generally doing it’s job at the opioid receptor, but there’s just not enough extra dopamine available for release so you can experience the pleasant stimulant effect. i’m not saying that replenishing. your dopamine levels with supplements. Will definitely get Kratom to work for you again, but I would definitely give it a try. Even if it doesn’t work, it would probably improve your responsibility.

I don't think its dopamine that is desensitized with kratom use, if it was then switching to a drug like nicotine or adderall would also feel desensitized

 

[GetMeOutOfThisCRAP]

Right, but unlike you (and I'm not knocking you in any way) I'm not dependent on Kratom. You've been taking it for 7 years but I've only used it on and off. I really use it relatively rarely but I used a lot years ago. There were periods where i just took more and more to try to get an effect and I'd continue to as I raised the dosage higher but of course that did come with withdrawal. Then I stopped numerous times and once for well over a year and returned to it without a tolerance and it still worked. Now it does not work.

So, yeah, I tend to think that unfortunately it's probably never going to work for me again, which really kind of bothers me. With my unique issues nothing felt as good as Kratom. I guess I can try it once in a while and see what happens, but mostly I guess I'm probably best off not thinking about it.

Ohhhh I see. That's pretty wild that you still don't feel it after a lot of time off. I mean if you're experiencing an inability to feel it consistently that would knock this question out, but some bags are definitely complete duds. Have you tried more than 1 brand and still not experienced anything at all?

 

[Mycophile]

Ohhhh I see. That's pretty wild that you still don't feel it after a lot of time off. I mean if you're experiencing an inability to feel it consistently that would knock this question out, but some bags are definitely complete duds. Have you tried more than 1 brand and still not experienced anything at all?

Yeah I have, but if you'll see from my last post, i got it to work again by doing an extreme fast before taking it. Some of my euphoria was also Phenibut, but it's definitely working again.