Why do some people on Psychedelics think they can fly?

[Kaleida]

Oh nah, I'm perfectly content playing the trip sitter role for these kinds of experiences. And I have already been tripping for a long time, though I usually don't trip around people period myself. The first event, the jumping off of a balcony, was the first time I ever saw someone react that way and therefore it was not expected or planned for, which could've made it go very badly. However, every other time, like the lucid dream people, was after they directly asked me if I would be willing to look after them in that state of mind, to which I agreed. I really don't think there's anything wrong with being that far out; literally anyone will react that way if you feed them enough drugs, some just take less than others. There's no real issue as long as you plan out how to do it all safely, and in fact I think those are some of the best trips period when they're done right. Honestly I'm usually not even really that interested in a trip if it doesn't have the possibility of taking me that deep.

 

[LostAtomsk]

I must be a magnet for unstable people. I kind of think of this as a potential very real risk every time I'm ever around anyone on a psychedelic period, based on my prior experiences. I have had to stop a friend from jumping off of a balcony while tripping to prove that it couldn't hurt him. I've also seen people exclaim "I'm in a lucid dream!" while out of their minds, and I can guarantee you that if I thought that one of the very first things I would do is try to fly. Luckily, these people were content just wandering around talking nonsense.

This may not be common, but it's certainly an entirely realistic scenario. A good reason to never forget that psychedelics demand respect.

You could ask them that, if they're so convinced they can fly, why their take-off needs to be off a balcony. If they're so sure they can fly, why not start by levitating in a room?
That'll teach 'em.

But yeah, definitely iterating what someone else said earlier: find better people to trip with. Trip with people you trust with your life.

Then again, I remember you being the solo-tripper and I'm still thrilled to try that myself Here's hoping I won't forget my own advice about thinking I can fly.

 

[Solipsis]

It's not a complete urban myth, in my previous hometown a student leaped out of his window after a party involving LSD and a lot of alcohol. The partner of a friend of my best friend died from something similar, but that involved depression and mushrooms. Also not quite the same but another rower student stabbed himself in the heart on mushrooms.

The myth I think is that a sane, non-delusional / non-delirious person is likely to do something so reckless or fatal during a trip. That doesn't really happen since normally a trip does not get so immersive that one acts impulsively in total disregard of his/her environment. That would require severe separation.

Instead, in most cases other drugs or mental illness or stupidly high doses or a lot of bad luck are involved. I'm not even so sure drug-induced psychosis is likely to make one leap out of a #-story window, losing inhibition taking off clothes and acting socially unacceptable are more likely scenarios. But fact remains that people can pose a threat to themselves or others, especially when they are disturbed to begin with.

People talking about taking off from the ground are totally missing the point: if you do something like jumping out the window, you are extremely likely to have lost all sense of rational thought. Thinking another person is satan, or that you yourself are the Messias don't seem that uncommon - are you going to criticize that rationally as well?

VVV yes AA357, well not per se Datura, but delirium is perhaps key here VVV

 

[AA357]

It seems in some LSD related deaths or other psychadelic related deaths, people have jumped to their death thinking they can fly. What causes people to lose their shit like this? I've thought of some pretty crazy stuff tripping but nothing crazy like that.

Maybe they were on Datura as well as LSD? Either that or they had severe schizophrenia (psychosis+LSD is a very bad combination).

 

[Kaleida]

You could ask them that, if they're so convinced they can fly, why their take-off needs to be off a balcony. If they're so sure they can fly, why not start by levitating in a room?
That'll teach 'em.

But yeah, definitely iterating what someone else said earlier: find better people to trip with. Trip with people you trust with your life.

Then again, I remember you being the solo-tripper and I'm still thrilled to try that myself Here's hoping I won't forget my own advice about thinking I can fly.

Hehe, it is a nice thought, but I think Solipsis summed it up quite nicely: "People talking about taking off from the ground are totally missing the point: if you do something like jumping out the window, you are extremely likely to have lost all sense of rational thought. Thinking another person is satan, or that you yourself are the Messias don't seem that uncommon - are you going to criticize that rationally as well?" Though, in such a situation it's probably still worth a try anyway.

As I said before though, it's really not about the people. The people I know who have the craziest reactions on psychedelics are some of the only people I trust with my life, because they have proven themselves worthy of that trust time and time again. The thing is that they've done it while sober.... Anyone who puts their lives in the hands of someone on hallucinogens should pretty much expect to die, that's not a fair assessment of who they are at all. The reason I play trip sitter for them is because they also trust their lives in my hands, and they know that I'll be the sober one when they do so.

As much as people seem to like to think otherwise, it's important to remember that insanity is not linked to any one type of person. You cannot build a sane mind that cannot go insane just like you can't build a computer that can't glitch. Like I said, if you give someone enough drugs, they will hit this point. Anyone. I have had many, many people come to me to tell me otherwise and say that their minds are basically impenetrable to drugs. They are extremely fun to prove wrong, as I will gladly do for you as well if you do ever come to visit. And despite what one might fear, none of these people have ever been anything but completely normal again after coming down. It's not different from any other response to a drug, it's just a higher intensity.

As for your solo trip, I doubt that you will face such problems with the kind of dose you have planned, but that is definitely a risk to keep in mind when planning them in the future! Part of why I said I tend to just remain in the comforts of my own home while tripping alone because I take larger doses. Even that has its risks though.... I think I lucked out because while growing up I naturally learned to hold feelings in rather than running around expressing them, the latter being something I imagine likely predisposes one to acting more crazy, but I know I can hit that point too. Seriously high doses really shouldn't be taken without a sitter ever, from a harm reduction perspective.

 

[Solipsis]

True, of course some people have genetic predisposition for psychotic modes. Others are extremely sensitive and/or clingy to consensus reality, or the concept of safety.

Often the tragedy is that as with many things in life, you find out along the way, stumbling upon it. With the right (or wrong if you will) ingredients being stumbled upon you can get a train wreck situation. Following HR rules like set and setting goes a long way, but ultimately you gotta be prepared for anything. And you also kinda have to be okay with that deep inside (that ironically helps avoiding or overcoming resistance). I believe many trippers develop that, often by trial and error (more stumbling).
Do you suppose that more problematic tripping situations arise from people resisting the flow? Or can letting go completely sometimes also get you so dissociated that it can be a detriment to sanity?

It is important to realize that nobody is really immune, and nobody is guaranteed to have say a psychotic break or bad trip either. There is fuzziness.

Do the best prevention that you can, and say something like a prayer for the shit that still hits the fan..

 

[Kaleida]

Oh yes, that tragedy is exactly what I was referring to when I said that the person who wanted to jump off the balcony was the first person I ever saw like this.... I didn't even know that people could respond that way to drugs yet, it was alarming and not prepared for in any way. We (especially him) were very lucky that it didn't go much worse. I tend to think he may be predisposed to those states as well, because he enters them very easily on drugs, but still not while sober thankfully.

I would have to say that I honestly think that letting go is more dangerous than resisting. The people I've personally seen who resist a trip tend to become more anxious and only move as much as the drug makes them feel like they have to, otherwise choosing to take a defensive position and wait for it to end. It seems that only the most extreme reactions lead to enough fear to cause significant troubles, at least in my experience. On the other hand, people who have completely let go have no anxiety whatsoever. They happily run around doing whatever the hell they want because they think they can. They also seem significantly less likely to respond to reason to me, unlike the anxious resister who may be far out of their mind but is still struggling to try to hold on to you and the rest of reality. Someone who has completely let go doesn't even care whether or not reality still exists.

Of course, I also think that there's basically no point in taking a psychedelic if you're just going to resist it. Letting go is what makes trips amazing, and even more so when you literally don't have to pay attention to reality in the slightest because someone else is doing it for you. I think people just need to work themselves up to that point with extreme caution until they know exactly what kinds of things they do when they are that free, and how much of anything it takes them to get there.... I really think that kind of trip is fine as long as it is properly prepared for, just potentially disastrous if it isn't.

 

[LostAtomsk]

Hehe, it is a nice thought, but I think Solipsis summed it up quite nicely: "People talking about taking off from the ground are totally missing the point: if you do something like jumping out the window, you are extremely likely to have lost all sense of rational thought. Thinking another person is satan, or that you yourself are the Messias don't seem that uncommon - are you going to criticize that rationally as well?" Though, in such a situation it's probably still worth a try anyway.

I suppose that makes it a psychosis, right? So there wouldn't be any point in arguing. How do you deal with someone like that? Talk them down? Restraint them? Distract them?

As I said before though, it's really not about the people. The people I know who have the craziest reactions on psychedelics are some of the only people I trust with my life, because they have proven themselves worthy of that trust time and time again. The thing is that they've done it while sober.... Anyone who puts their lives in the hands of someone on hallucinogens should pretty much expect to die, that's not a fair assessment of who they are at all. The reason I play trip sitter for them is because they also trust their lives in my hands, and they know that I'll be the sober one when they do so.

I find that very interesting, coming from a limited experience. I feel like a little boy, asking their grandparents why they're so wise. I've never used a substance (including alcohol) to the point I lost self-control, or self-awareness, so I have no idea what that experience is like. On LSD, I'm still very lucid. I've had salvia, but was just a complete disconnect.
The only time where I did feel like a was out of synch with reality and rationality, was when I was in a half-dream/half-awake state or dreaming very lucidly.
Still, isn't it so that a psychedelic enhances or amplifies any underlying issues? Those crazy reactions must have a root in the (sub-)consciousness, or do they develop out of thin air?

As much as people seem to like to think otherwise, it's important to remember that insanity is not linked to any one type of person. You cannot build a sane mind that cannot go insane just like you can't build a computer that can't glitch. Like I said, if you give someone enough drugs, they will hit this point. Anyone.

Hmm. I won't deny that, but like that analogy you made with a psyche being like a computer: if you download everything you come across the Internet, then something is indeed bound to go wrong. It's still the operator that is responsible for the well-being of the proverbial mindputer.

I have had many, many people come to me to tell me otherwise and say that their minds are basically impenetrable to drugs.

Funny, before I tried anything, I used to think they would have little effect on me (I do believe in its purely chemical reaction, of course). Color me wrong.

They are extremely fun to prove wrong, as I will gladly do for you as well if you do ever come to visit. And despite what one might fear, none of these people have ever been anything but completely normal again after coming down. It's not different from any other response to a drug, it's just a higher intensity.

Are you offering me a joy-ride through my own sanity? Awesome! Oddly enough, that seems thrilling to me. I'm still trying to figure out if that is a good thing or not... In a self-reflective way, I don't mind shuffling over the edge of my own comfort bubble. I feel comfortable enough with myself for that. Either way, I haven't forgotten that invitation

As for your solo trip, I doubt that you will face such problems with the kind of dose you have planned, but that is definitely a risk to keep in mind when planning them in the future! Part of why I said I tend to just remain in the comforts of my own home while tripping alone because I take larger doses. Even that has its risks though.... I think I lucked out because while growing up I naturally learned to hold feelings in rather than running around expressing them, the latter being something I imagine likely predisposes one to acting more crazy, but I know I can hit that point too. Seriously high doses really shouldn't be taken without a sitter ever, from a harm reduction perspective.

For that exact reason, I will only ever feel comfortable upping doses with the people I currently trip with. Solo-trips will only be done in doses I've done enough to know I'm comfortable with. Otherwise I'd just get anxious, which'll just ruin the experience anyway.
Thanks for sharing, I've learned a lot

True, of course some people have genetic predisposition for psychotic modes. Others are extremely sensitive and/or clingy to consensus reality, or the concept of safety.

Could you elaborate what you mean with extremely sensitive/cling to "consensus reality"? Honestly curious.

 

[Sprout]

I thought it was a myth. I was taught it at 8 years old by a mother who had just left a man with a Speed problem. Eh.

 

[Achten]

If it's not a myth I would venture a guess and say that these people misstook their astral body for their physical body, thus falsely realizing they can take off.

I would think it's more prone to happen with LSD and other psychedelics that somehow excite dopamine receptors as well. Maybe this makes them act out their thoughts ?

edit:

It's an urban myth. No truth to it whatsoever. It's like the guy who went blind staring at the sun on LSD or the one who thinks he's a glass of orange juice.

Obviously we all have silly thoughts that cross our mind even when sober - have you ever thought what it would be like to drive the car off a cliff when you're driving at height? It's just silly ideas that cross your mind every now and again.

Slightly off-topic but: You might be interested in books like "The man who mistook his wife for a hat" and "The Mind's eye" by Oliver Sachs (sp?). He's a neurologist I believe and his books deal with patients that perceive themselves or the world to be something different than it is. Strange stuff !

 

[Kaleida]

I suppose that makes it a psychosis, right? So there wouldn't be any point in arguing. How do you deal with someone like that? Talk them down? Restraint them? Distract them?

Basically, yes. Most people in psychedelic psychosis do not become aggressive to the point that you would have to restrain them, but it is a possibility if the situation becomes decidedly extreme. Distracting them usually works though.... Suggesting that they do something entirely different, for example, could get their thoughts on a totally different tangent, even if it's not related to what you suggested lol.

If you're in a group of close friends during it (as I imagine you would be), emotional bonds can help you immensely as well. That friend of mine who was going to jump off the balcony, who is also one of those people I would trust with my life, has tripped like that with me so many times now and been through so much with me that I notice immediately when he is acting crazy, and all I have to do is go up to him, grab his shoulders, look him straight in the face, and say "Dude, you're just tripping right now. You took psychedelics. It's all good." He'll hesitate for a second, then look relieved and say "Okay.", and then generally just sit back down and get lost in thought again.

I find that very interesting, coming from a limited experience. I feel like a little boy, asking their grandparents why they're so wise. I've never used a substance (including alcohol) to the point I lost self-control, or self-awareness, so I have no idea what that experience is like. On LSD, I'm still very lucid. I've had salvia, but was just a complete disconnect.
The only time where I did feel like a was out of synch with reality and rationality, was when I was in a half-dream/half-awake state or dreaming very lucidly.
Still, isn't it so that a psychedelic enhances or amplifies any underlying issues? Those crazy reactions must have a root in the (sub-)consciousness, or do they develop out of thin air?

It is true that psychedelics amplify what is inside you and therefore can bring out underlying issues, and for that reason yes those can play a role in these types of reactions as well, but it is important to understand that that is not the only reason they can happen. This goes back to my computer analogy: psychosis is an inherent possibility to a mind. It's not a disease, it's just a disorganized mode. Everyone experiences it every single night in their dreams, and every single person can experience it in waking life simply by tuning their brains' processes to be similar to dream states, which psychedelics are capable of doing. The way that you describe feeling out of it in your half-dream or lucid dream states is exactly what these people are experiencing during their trips, though with decidedly stranger sensory input coming at them and enhanced emotions.

As I said before, though anyone can reach this state, some take more or less than others to get there. The reason for this is simply because everyone's brains are differently tuned by default to be more or less similar to dream states, which doesn't have to be a bad thing. Having high dopamine levels, for instance, but not too high, can make you smarter and more productive without making you crazy, but it still makes you closer to a psychotic high dopamine reaction than someone who naturally has low dopamine. In your case, you are just clearly more resistant to it than the people I'm talking about, but believe me, a high enough dose would still get you there!

Hmm. I won't deny that, but like that analogy you made with a psyche being like a computer: if you download everything you come across the Internet, then something is indeed bound to go wrong. It's still the operator that is responsible for the well-being of the proverbial mindputer.

That may be, but I think the analogy becomes a little stretched at this point by the fact that downloads have foreseeable consequences on computers. Imagine being in a scenario in which you could not possibly know whether or not a download from any source could negatively effect your computer until after you downloaded it, because even hearing from others that it messed up their computer wouldn't necessarily mean that it would mess up yours. Now you've got a human-like computer. Would you just stop downloading anything ever again out of fear of having something go wrong? I personally would prefer to reap the benefits of the things I want to download while just preparing mentally for the possibility of something bad happening, and if I find a problem just fix it and avoid it again in the future. But it's your choice.

Funny, before I tried anything, I used to think they would have little effect on me (I do believe in its purely chemical reaction, of course). Color me wrong.

Are you offering me a joy-ride through my own sanity? Awesome! Oddly enough, that seems thrilling to me. I'm still trying to figure out if that is a good thing or not... In a self-reflective way, I don't mind shuffling over the edge of my own comfort bubble. I feel comfortable enough with myself for that. Either way, I haven't forgotten that invitation

If that is what you would like, I can certainly supply it. As long as you are as mentally prepared for the experience as one can be, I do not think that there is anything wrong with it. I find such states of mind to be fascinating, to the point that I probably would continue returning to them simply for the intellectual ecstasy even if I didn't find them pleasurable at all. Actually, I know from experience that I would... but luckily there are plenty of options I have now that I do find pleasurable as well!

For that exact reason, I will only ever feel comfortable upping doses with the people I currently trip with. Solo-trips will only be done in doses I've done enough to know I'm comfortable with. Otherwise I'd just get anxious, which'll just ruin the experience anyway.
Thanks for sharing, I've learned a lot

That is a very wise way of thinking. And I'm glad to help as always, you seem to have a pretty good head on your shoulders about these kinds of things for your level of experience.

Could you elaborate what you mean with extremely sensitive/cling to "consensus reality"? Honestly curious.

Though I can't speak for Solipsis, generally when people say this they mean the reality that we all experience, as opposed to the ones in our heads (like dreams). Some people are definitely afraid of letting go of the physical and the control that comes with it.

 

[Solipsis]

I suppose that makes it a psychosis, right? So there wouldn't be any point in arguing. How do you deal with someone like that? Talk them down? Restraint them? Distract them?


I find that very interesting, coming from a limited experience. I feel like a little boy, asking their grandparents why they're so wise. I've never used a substance (including alcohol) to the point I lost self-control, or self-awareness, so I have no idea what that experience is like. On LSD, I'm still very lucid. I've had salvia, but was just a complete disconnect.

We don't allow videos of people tripping or getting high here, but there is one of a guy and girl smoking salvia and one of them awkwardly manoeuvring his/her self out the window. Fortunately they lived on floor level but it demonstrates that strong dissociation (I called it immersion earlier - a term more often used for say DMT breakthroughs) and still being mobile like on a number of dissociative drugs can happen, they don't mix. Especially when there are effects on perceived gravity or spatial distortion.
But that would account for someone wandering, not thinking they can fly and just *fuck it* going for it.

Could you elaborate what you mean with extremely sensitive/cling to "consensus reality"? Honestly curious.

I have met people who are such self-declared control freaks, or sometimes with anxiety or obsessive disorders, that you couldn't pay them enough to take a psychedelic. One might argue that letting go is just what they need, but I would imagine the resistance to be so dramatic that people could just flip out. It's not worth it, and you can't decide for another person if tripping is the right approach for their problems.. or that they are fit enough to handle taking them for recreational reasons. Better is a more step-by-step approach to them learning to let go, which may or may not ultimately allow them to try a low dose psychedelic.

With consensus reality I mean that most people never really gave it any thought that what they experience is just a model-like projection of their mind mapping the world through their senses. We don't know any better, usually, and "mistake the map for the territory". That consensus reality is deemed more objective than is fair to attribute, by a ballpark. Having that illusion popped can be really disturbing (remember The Matrix?). Some people are more heavily invested in keeping everything more or less understandable and overviewable.

My most intense trip ever, also second ever, involved such severe ego (sense of self and reality) destruction, that it made me extremely afraid. I had no idea whether I would end up insane or dead, but I was ready to give my life for the agony to stop. Luckily I did not consider jumping out of off anything, I just laid down on my bed and surrendered. I then had an oceanic mystical non-duality experience that lasted hours.

Had I been depressed or person with a very different mindset, then I might have made different decisions. I take it such extreme predicaments are rare enough, but accidents do happen and it is really no surprise. We just shouldn't overstate the risks and cause panic in people just getting acquainted with psychedelics, just underline the importance of careful titration, set and setting, etc.

Slightly off-topic but: You might be interested in books like "The man who mistook his wife for a hat" and "The Mind's eye" by Oliver Sachs (sp?). He's a neurologist I believe and his books deal with patients that perceive themselves or the world to be something different than it is. Strange stuff !

He actually passed away very recently.. RIP
I love his books, read a lot of em, right now in his autobiography On the Move.

Though I can't speak for Solipsis, generally when people say this they mean the reality that we all experience, as opposed to the ones in our heads (like dreams). Some people are definitely afraid of letting go of the physical and the control that comes with it.

Right, it can be an important factor when it happens at completely the wrong time like during a party with a lot of alcohol that completely messed up your self-control, or when there are other reasons why you are on thin ice to begin with.

 

[Kaleida]

Thank you for that post, Solipsis. I would just like to highlight the fact that what was described above is the exact reason why psychosis can be caused in any and every human being. As can be revealed even while sober like with optical illusions, the world we experience is simply not what is actually out there in physical space, but is only a reflection of it that allows our minds to coordinate our bodily feelings in such a way that it makes them appropriately interacts with that space. We do not see the real world itself for what it truly is, ever, but just the virtual reality that our brains create to help us achieve this. Luckily, our brains happen to be advanced enough that this perception usually correlates with what is actually out there quite well, at least as far as we can tell, but that is not always the case. Hallucinogens especially are something which can greatly disrupt this process... and thus you get the break from "consensus reality". And because this process running smoothly is absolutely necessary for normal consciousness to exist, each and every normal consciousness can inherently become disrupted in this way.

 

[Solipsis]

It's possible to soften the sense of self and presence in the world without really messing with being able to distinguish fantasy from reality. I personally believe that proper skepticism is key and that superstition beyond the harmless and trivial (I make a wish blowing away my girl's eyelash, that doesn't mean I believe in magical righteousness governing the world) must be avoided. Logical fallacies aplenty if you really pay close attention, people being lulled into beliefs because they want to feel good rather than face the truth.. And let's not get started on the exploits of religion (the institutions and pointless doctrine or traditions, mystical self-inquiry is actually alright and very important for development of personal consciousness)..
In most cases there is not a real problem, but when people start taking the wrong things too seriously there can be an exceeding risk of losing sight of reality (that what basically does not change even if you stop believing in it)..

Anyway you probably shouldn't take this opinion too seriously either : p

 

[LostAtomsk]

Kaleida, Solipsis, thanks so much for your interesting information. I hugely enjoy this kind of conversation.

Still, it's a lot of (hugely interesting) things to consider. I'm still stuck at the antagonistic relation of a mind-altered state:
- Everything is relative to the "experiencer", his/her mindset but also his/her concept of reality
- Reality is only perceived through the sensory input of the "experiencer"

Chicken or the egg?

Reminds of the intro of Watermelon on easter hay and the "imaginer". Incidentally a magnificent song on a trip AND THUS, THE CIRCLE IS COMPLETE.

I've got a trip coming up next weekend. I'll be thinking of you guys

 

[One Thousand Words]

http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/...er-ingesting-lsd/story-fnii5s40-1226658438922

It's not a myth. Henry Kwan lost his shit on what turned to be 25nbome and told his parents he could fly before diving out of a three story balcony.

Then again some people also believe they are the worlds greatest DJ on psychedelics

 

[spacejunk]

^Indeed that is a sad story.
Did the delusion (on 25i) come from the myth, though?
I wonder sometimes about cause and effect with these kinds of things.
Psychedelic states/psychotic breaks can lead to some pretty suggestible behaviours. I used to live in 7th and a 10th floor apartments in my most acid-drenched years.
Friends of mine would half-jokingly remind me that even if i thought i could fly, i couldnt.
But the thought never crossed my mind in the slightest.
I tend to think urban myths can plant seeds in that regard somehow though.

 

[Solipsis]

I think for example that even a person who has never heard about any prophets or religions would still act in a typical Messias complex type way if PCP induced mania hits the right brain regions. If you are stimulated to have deep thoughts AND the novelty and excitation meters in your head hit a record high AND your frame of reference is inhibited, it's very easy to start thinking that you have the solution to everything. The "We did it!!" thread being exhibit A.

Similarly other cliché's are bound to recurr, I actually don't think unconscious copycat behavior is the most simple explanation here. Our neurobiology and psychology is.

 

[Kaleida]

Kaleida, Solipsis, thanks so much for your interesting information. I hugely enjoy this kind of conversation.

Still, it's a lot of (hugely interesting) things to consider. I'm still stuck at the antagonistic relation of a mind-altered state:
- Everything is relative to the "experiencer", his/her mindset but also his/her concept of reality
- Reality is only perceived through the sensory input of the "experiencer"

Chicken or the egg?

Reminds of the intro of Watermelon on easter hay and the "imaginer". Incidentally a magnificent song on a trip AND THUS, THE CIRCLE IS COMPLETE.

I've got a trip coming up next weekend. I'll be thinking of you guys

That's a good question. How do you know that we exist at all? Maybe all of reality is just a sea of scattered colors that your mind has taken eons trying to arrange into something entertaining, and it's just been so long since this all started that you've forgotten the way things used to be. But perhaps this delusion is finally fading and we are the agents of your subconscious that are trying to push you towards remembering the truth. Better take some LSD and find out.

I think for example that even a person who has never heard about any prophets or religions would still act in a typical Messias complex type way if PCP induced mania hits the right brain regions. If you are stimulated to have deep thoughts AND the novelty and excitation meters in your head hit a record high AND your frame of reference is inhibited, it's very easy to start thinking that you have the solution to everything. The "We did it!!" thread being exhibit A.

Similarly other cliché's are bound to recurr, I actually don't think unconscious copycat behavior is the most simple explanation here. Our neurobiology and psychology is.

This is what I tend to think as well. Like in this case, it's true that these stories of people trying to fly on psychedelics might be in the backs of our minds, but do we really need them there in the first place? What human being doesn't wish they could fly? It's even an extremely common theme in childhood dreams.

 

[LostAtomsk]

That's a good question. How do you know that we exist at all? Maybe all of reality is just a sea of scattered colors that your mind has taken eons trying to arrange into something entertaining, and it's just been so long since this all started that you've forgotten the way things used to be. But perhaps this delusion is finally fading and we are the agents of your subconscious that are trying to push you towards remembering the truth. Better take some LSD and find out.

I mulled this over, last night, on a good glass of whisky. I have a very personal belief I was able to connect to our conversation here. I had also recently read a book by Eckhard Tolle. Very confusing and a bit of a struggle to get through, not because it's intellectually daunting, but because the book isn't really written like a book. It's more of a 300 page monologue with little structure. Nevertheless, an amusing read.

That book helped me complete a form or belief I had been toying with for a while. Don't take this too seriously, I'm getting a little floaty here
The essence is that we exist as our "ego" and as a "higher existence". The former is the more earthly, material, the latter the more spiritual.

The ego is the necessary evil, the part of us that troubles us with our weaknesses, our insecurities, our fears, but at the same time, the vehicle we need to find our place on this world. The ego wants, the ego is angered, saddened, disappointed and quelled with quick fixes.

The higher existence is the part of us that is inherently good, wholesome, loving. It's what we need to find ourselves, that steers us on the right path. It's what dreams, warms. It's where we know right from wrong, it's what we cling to if our ego's have been shattered or destroyed through grief or loss.

The ego can serve as a butler of sorts, to the higher existence, adding more qualities, traits or talents to the higher existence. When our physical body dies, the ego is destroyed and the higher existence remains. I can't really call it a soul, because I'd personally attach religious themes to it.
What happens next, after death, I have no idea of, naturally. But I'd like to believe that we gather all the good things we've done in our lives and move on to a next life, with more qualities to ourselves, than before.

Historical figures like Jesus, Mohammed, the Dalai Lama, maybe even Tesla, were people who were able to leave their ego's behind and were operating on their higher existences. "Enlightened", if you will, if you're able to detach the religious weight.

On a trip, depending on the dosage, I believe an ego death means we are "surrendered" or remain with our higher existence. Something we simply cannot fathom, still in our earthly shells. Maybe it's like pressing left, left, right right, up down, up down, a, b, etc. and activating a cheat mode to achieve god mode

People that are comfortable with themselves and have some sort of conscious or subconscious idea of their higher existence, might experience ego death or the impending onset of it, as something liberating, enlightening, interesting, intriguing, titillating, etc. People that are not, might get very nihilistic. It might be terrifying or at the very least confusing. Maybe, at that point, is when people start having a bad trip. Maybe it's the ego, clawing for existence.

Hmpf, something I'm definitely taking into the trip, next time. Although I'm pretty sure I'll need to have a undisturbed solo trip to fully think this through.