When Christ says to Love and turn the other cheek

[Ninae]

I hate how Jesus is portrayed to us visually. Always as a weak, plain, joyless, effeminate, suffering figure hanging on the cross. No one wants to become like that and it's enough to repel most from his message. You're seeing him at the worst point of his life and an example of what can happen to you if you follow the same path (and for a long time it did, when even small protests was enough to get people burned as heretics).

When the way he should be presented is how he was at the highest point of his life, which was most of it. He should be portrayed as the loveliest, happiest, most powerful man you could ever imagine, and in a way that communicates his high consciousness, and what must have been unusual charisma to make an impression on the simple people of that time. The child actor who plays him in "Jesus of Nazareth" is very good and has a real sense of the divine or holy spirit about him (it almost scares me or puts the fear of God in me to look at him). That's how he should have been presented to inspire us.

Instead we get movie stars portrayed in a more glamorous way. So most men would rather be James Dean, the way things are, when in reality he would have been far beyond that and much more than our imagination is capable of. But people who see it like that hardly exist, because that's not what's been given to us. I think Jesus was mostly here to demonstrate high consciousness and communion with the divine, and everything that comes with it, but somehow it hasn't been brought across or understood. But I think it was to his first followers, and that's what made the faith grow so fast and become impossible to suppress, so we ended up with was this watered-down version of it which most don't begin to understand before they're on their deathbed.

 

[ForEverAfter]

Agreed. I'd go as far as saying that the crucifixion shouldn't be part of the story, if you're teaching people that Jesus was a real person (of which, I'm not convinced). It's such a graphic and brutal ending. And it's confusing, to most. In a literal sense, Jesus being nailed to a cross for our sins doesn't make sense. If Jesus was a real person, and he was really crucified, we shouldn't focus on that. Since the Jesus mythology lends itself to literal interpretations, the crucifixion becomes confusing. It is used, I think, to guilt Christians into behaving in certain ways.

"He died FOR YOU, Billy! Now eat your oatmeal!"
(Or something along those lines. )

Surely his message was/is more important than how or why he died (if, indeed, he lived). I find it bizarre, since the church believes he was a real man, that there are these gigantic crucifixes everywhere.

I mean, if a religion was formed about Abraham Lincoln, would there be a pistol on top of his churches?
What about Freddy Mercury? Should we focus on the disease, or on his music?

Having said all that, I do like the crucifix (because I don't believe).
For me, it isn't literal. It is a symbol for death, and for sacrifice.
I have a silver crucifix on a chain I used to wear around my neck.

I just don't think it's wise to focus on it, or scare children with it.
Especially children who are raised to love Jesus.
It's really horrible if you think about it.

 

[Shrooms00087]

He was crucified over the skull of Adam which symbolized the Fall of Man. The reason the crucifixion was important was it symbolized the antagonism of what makes Man fallen and how Christ's death signaled Free Will. Christ being weak and bloodied is the least grim part of that message.

 

[ForEverAfter]

Maybe.

But, graphic statues of a man stapled to a cross are unnecessary.
A crucified man doesn't function very well as a symbol; it confuses and scares people.
Functionally, the crucifixion part of the NT doesn't work.

Surely there is a better - less confusing - way to symbolize the fall of man.

Since religious teachings are prone to misinterpretation, they need to be clear.
"Love thy neighbor," is clear and it has had a positive effect.

The brutal murder of an innocent man, and his resurrection, is not clear.
Most Christians don't understand the crucifixion, at all.
If you ask them, they'll say "Christ died for our sins."
But, if you persist they don't know what it means.

Because, like I said, they think he's a real person.
It's problematic.

 

[What 23]

I've considered the crucifixion as something more allegorical/symbolic of Christ's being, but my words fall short of the truth of the matter I am thinking, and I'll keep coming back to this to try to find the right ones. Christians often say that they are "alive in the body of Christ", and they call him the "host", but what do they mean by it? What is meant by it?

I've considered Jesus kind of a like the base hologram, or something (my words again... I'll change likely).

 

[Shrooms00087]

Maybe.

But, graphic statues of a man stapled to a cross are unnecessary.
A crucified man doesn't function very well as a symbol; it confuses and scares people.
Functionally, the crucifixion part of the NT doesn't work.

Surely there is a better - less confusing - way to symbolize the fall of man.

Since religious teachings are prone to misinterpretation, they need to be clear.
"Love thy neighbor," is clear and it has had a positive effect.

The brutal murder of an innocent man, and his resurrection, is not clear.
Most Christians don't understand the crucifixion, at all.
If you ask them, they'll say "Christ died for our sins."
But, if you persist they don't know what it means.

Because, like I said, they think he's a real person.
It's problematic.

Ah but a graphic statue throws mud in your eye! This is why we are fallen, this is the nature of Man, this is your redemption formulated in a complex symbol. You should be scared that your decisions have profound effects on the nature of the Body (drugs, war, famine, etc). He died by showing us the Fall. He was the embodiment of God's love, in that sense, we killed God. The Alpha AND The Omega. Having him be real doesn't muddle anything.

 

[ForEverAfter]

Having him be real doesn't muddle anything.

It doesn't in theory, perhaps.
But, it does in practice.

You should be scared

Nonsense.

Ah but a graphic statue throws mud in your eye! ... He was the embodiment of God's love, in that sense, we killed God.

No. I didn't kill God.
Nobody died for my sins.
I don't want mud in my eyes.
We don't need to frighten children.
You can teach people without fear.
Fear is a bad teacher.

this is your redemption formulated in a complex symbol

The symbol is too complex for it's own good.
Look at all the horrors it has created.
The story of Jesus was too ambitious.
It has failed. We can do better.

...

With all due respect, friend, I don't really want to discuss Jesus with you.
None of what you said makes any sense to me, whatsoever.

Unless you'd actually like to put forward a coherent argument as to why we "need" to have a statue of a brutally murdered man as the most prevalent symbol in (Western) society, discussing this with you doesn't interest me. What you've said, so far, is typical Christian fluff (no offense).

 

[Shrooms00087]

It doesn't in theory, perhaps.
But, it does in practice.

Example?

Nonsense.

Why shouldn't you be scared about life's consequences?

No. I didn't kill God.
Nobody died for my sins.
I don't want mud in my eyes.
We don't need to frighten children.
You can teach people without fear.
Fear is a bad teacher.

The nature of your Being killed God. What drove [us] to kill God is the nature of our politics/emotions.
God died for your sins in killing Him
Fair point.
Don't have to, I have fond memories of the church when I was young.
Did you not fear your grades?
Fear is the only teacher.

The symbol is too complex for it's own good.
Look at all the horrors it has created.
The story of Jesus was too ambitious.
It has failed. We can do better.

Life is too complex for it's own good.
You mean look into Man's horrors? What drove them to it?
Life is too ambitious
Perhaps.

With all due respect, friend, I don't really want to discuss Jesus with you.
None of what you said makes any sense to me, whatsoever.

Unless you'd actually like to put forward a coherent argument as to why we "need" to have a statue of a brutally murdered man as the most prevalent symbol in (Western) society, discussing this with you doesn't interest me. What you've said, so far, is typical Christian fluff (no offense).

Put forth a "need"? Ah, that I cannot do, anymore than I can put forth a need in life.

 

[ForEverAfter]

Nothing you said makes any sense.

Example?

You've got to be joking.
See: history.

Why shouldn't you be scared about life's consequences?

Because fear is a bad motivator.
Fear cripples people.

The nature of your Being killed God.
What drove [us] to kill God is the nature of our politics/emotions.
God died for your sins in killing Him

No, dude.
I know God personally.
Nobody "killed" Him.

I don't need to carry around the guilt of killing God.
I'm not capable of killing God and neither are you.
I get what you're trying to say, but death is a bad analogy.

Did you not fear your grades?

No, I didn't. High school was easy.
I didn't even study for my final exams and I did really well.
My parents didn't raise me to be afraid.

I see really stressed out kids having psychological problems due to the pressure of exams, but that isn't required... and it serves nothing. It is better - ideally - to be calm and confident. Fear doesn't help.

Fear is the only teacher.

No, it isn't.

Unless you'd actually like to put forward a coherent argument as to why we "need" to have a statue of a brutally murdered man as the most prevalent symbol in (Western) society, discussing this with you doesn't interest me. What you've said, so far, is typical Christian fluff (no offense).

Put forth a "need"? Ah, that I cannot do, anymore than I can put forth a need in life.

Predictably, you're just confirming what I said here:

Most Christians don't understand the crucifixion, at all.
If you ask them, they'll say "Christ died for our sins."
But, if you persist they don't know what it means.

You're saying that we do need to scare children, that fear is the only teacher/motivator. And then, when I ask you why we need to scare children with a dead man stapled to a cross, you don't have an answer. You're just parroting the church, it seems, without any real understanding of what it is that you're parroting.

You don't need to "put forward a need in life".
Life just is, full stop. We don't need to justify it.
We do need to justify our actions, however, especially when they lead to war.

You say that fear is the only teacher.
In my opinion that's an utterly horrible way to look at things.

Again, if you can't explain why you think fear is the only teacher, I'll just assume that you're trying to scare people for the church... In which case, you're a walking talking crucified Christ.

You're selling fear.
And, I'm not buying.

 

[swilow]

The nature of the universe really forbids the idea of future-guilt. How can I be responsible for something that happened 2000 years ago? Because of my god-given nature. I really hate that conception of god, that one is a fucking asshole. :D Don't blame me for an event perpetrated according to your own design thousands of years before I existed. That is indefensible condemnation.

The thing is frightened people are easier to control, because they have motivation to seek guidance and direction.

“I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”

Only Muad'dib is real.

 

[varimix]

(sorry read everyones post after posting)

Total Passivism is not Integrity. A person needs to stand up for themselves if being walked on. Its actually an energy below the level of Courage. If what your brother thinks is true and we went by this we wouldn't have a Country like this.

If someone comes into your home and you have the option to hide like a coward or defend your home and stand up for your family then obviously the higher choice would be to stand up for your family and not just let them die.

If someone is on top of someone beating another are you just going to stand there.

Your brother is misinterpreting the teaching and hopefully doesn't have to learn this lesson the hard way. I think passivism is good to a certain extent but theres a line thats crossed. That absolute limit may be someone punches you once and you don't fight back but if he gets on you throwing multiple punches I hope he'd fight back and not give his life to negative energy. Even if you have to fight back and just subdue the person but there may be a time you have no choice but to kill the person or else they will kill you. Luckily I've never been in this situation but I've had to stand up for myself by speaking up when someone is taking advantage of my kindness.

I worked with a Religious man who was a pacifist. The boss would always yell at him and take advantage of him. He'd never speak up and always agree. It didn't get him anywhere. There are many people who take the whole pacifism thing to far and it has negative consequences on their life and they think they are doing the right thing but really they would rise higher if they were to be strong and solid but not emotional. People take you more seriously and leave you alone. The strong pray on the weak and the passive person becomes prey. Sometimes I've seen.

 

[What 23]

My brother in law did in fact change his position on this, more or less. Maybe it was I who misinterpreted him. Maybe he got real. But when I first argued, or rather asked him something about defending himself or his family/fighting, he had a 'righteous', "I'm just saying what a follower of Christ would do"-to which I said, "then I am not that". Later in response to another's comment about defense of ones family, he said he would, and that it is "foolish" not to. Kind of confused about it, but I think he may have realized Jesus wasn't quite the pacifist that the often quoted verses seem to imply. ...That turn the other cheek was in regard to an open handed slap, for one, and that Jesus even said to sell ones robes to buy a sword, in a verse where he was going on journeys to spread his message.

 

[Shrooms00087]

Nothing you said makes any sense.



You've got to be joking.
See: history.

History says believing in him as a real person or rather a mythology doesn't prevent or produce immoral behavior. For instance Christ wasn't used to go into Vietnam, freedom was. Etc, etc.

Because fear is a bad motivator.
Fear cripples people.

Did you fear what drugs did to your body? What cripples people may just be laziness.

No, dude.
I know God personally.
Nobody "killed" Him.

You're not accepting the base mythology.

I don't need to carry around the guilt of killing God.
I'm not capable of killing God and neither are you.
I get what you're trying to say, but death is a bad analogy.

Oh you're fully capable. And Kenosis is not a bad analogy.

No, I didn't. High school was easy.
I didn't even study for my final exams and I did really well.
My parents didn't raise me to be afraid.

I would argue you are the minority here but an acceptable response nonetheless.

I see really stressed out kids having psychological problems due to the pressure of exams, but that isn't required... and it serves nothing. It is better - ideally - to be calm and confident. Fear doesn't help.

Confidence would be solicited by the fact your fear was rendered neutral through efforts to make exactly that, a neutral fear.

No, it isn't.

Just out of curiosity what is the biggest motivator in what drives Man to do anything?

You're saying that we do need to scare children, that fear is the only teacher/motivator. And then, when I ask you why we need to scare children with a dead man stapled to a cross, you don't have an answer. You're just parroting the church, it seems, without any real understanding of what it is that you're parroting.

We don't need to scare them and frankly I wasn't scared of Christ (because we're taught not to, rather we are taught to fear Sin itself).

You don't need to "put forward a need in life".
Life just is, full stop. We don't need to justify it.
We do need to justify our actions, however, especially when they lead to war.

Ah but the Philosophy is what is the Drive in Man that produces negative actions that need justification which includes especially war

You say that fear is the only teacher.
In my opinion that's an utterly horrible way to look at things.

Again, if you can't explain why you think fear is the only teacher, I'll just assume that you're trying to scare people for the church... In which case, you're a walking talking crucified Christ.

You're selling fear.
And, I'm not buying.

I am not selling anything, it is after all a story, a mythology, a belief. Take it all with a grain of salt as it should. I can only explain Philosophy through Theology which can even further be filtered in more basic terms of the Mythology. I could do the exact same thing with the Myth of Sisyphus! I would rather you window shop than full out buy something not worth selling.

 

[alasdairm]

I think it's just a metaphor for giving people another chance and not a way of telling you to be a voluntary victim. If someone insults you, let it slide and give them a new chance, instead of getting angry and seeking revenge.

i tend to agree. i believe a lot of parables are allegorical. i mean, that's what a parable is, right?

to some of what foreverafter said - and he won't see this as he has me on ignore - you can't discuss 'religion' rationally because religion arrives at its conclusions irrationally. all religions, and christianity is no exception, have convenient, catch-all get-outs. if something doesn't make sense, you're analysing the bible too literally because you don't understand it. another time, you're analysing the bible not literally enough because you don't understand it.

i have little doubt that jesus existed. i believe he did and that he was a smart, kind man with some truly inspiring ideas about life and love and how we need to treat each other.

i think that some of the things said and done in his name by christians would disgust him.

what would jesus do? he wouldn't do a lot of things today's christians do...

alasdair

 

[Xorkoth]

The nature of the universe really forbids the idea of future-guilt. How can I be responsible for something that happened 2000 years ago? Because of my god-given nature. I really hate that conception of god, that one is a fucking asshole. :D Don't blame me for an event perpetrated according to your own design thousands of years before I existed. That is indefensible condemnation.

The thing is frightened people are easier to control, because they have motivation to seek guidance and direction.

“I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”

Only Muad'dib is real.

I'm reading the Dune series right now, amazing books. Great quote.

We don't need to scare them and frankly I wasn't scared of Christ (because we're taught not to, rather we are taught to fear Sin itself).

Either way, it's fear as a teacher. Fear can teach people but it teaches people to avoid that which causes them fear. There are much better motivations that can lead people to an empowering mindset of self-confidence and passion. Fear leads to negativity despite being a powerful motivator.

 

[Shrooms00087]

Either way, it's fear as a teacher. Fear can teach people but it teaches people to avoid that which causes them fear. There are much better motivations that can lead people to an empowering mindset of self-confidence and passion. Fear leads to negativity despite being a powerful motivator.

Why can't fear be a motivator toward self-confidence and passion? Are we saying here crime and punishment theory is awash? The Bible's laws are obviously outdated, however, the roots of what it is getting at are still alive and well. I mean is there that much of a difference between Hell and being raped in prison?

 

[Xorkoth]

Can't you see how there are better motivators for being a moral person than fear of punishment? If not then I'm not sure what else to say, it seems entirely self-evident to me.

 

[Shrooms00087]

No, because I would only see it as a fear of being an immoral person.

 

[ForEverAfter]

Why does everything have to revolve around fear, though?
I'm pretty much repeating Xorkoth's question, here, and my own.
But, you haven't answered it sufficiently.

You don't need to fear sin, in order to avoid it.
The foundation for morality isn't fear. It's understanding.
Like most Christians, you don't understand your own religion.

Just out of curiosity what is the biggest motivator in what drives Man to do anything?

Survival...
And you're going to say - what - that survival is fear of death?
Because, it doesn't have to be.

I know I am going to die.
I am not afraid of it.
Yet, I want to live.

 

[Shrooms00087]

Why does everything have to revolve around fear, though?
I'm pretty much repeating Xorkoth's question, here, and my own.
But, you haven't answered it sufficiently.

You don't need to fear sin, in order to avoid it.
The foundation for morality isn't fear. It's understanding.
Like most Christians, you don't understand your own religion.



Survival...
And you're going to say - what - that survival is fear of death?
Because, it doesn't have to be.

I know I am going to die.
I am not afraid of it.
Yet, I want to live.

I am a stone cold atheist.
Your want to live is an unreadiness to die which would be said to be fear.
We understand our tool making as a necessity to live a certain unreadiness...A certain fear.