When Christ says to Love and turn the other cheek

[What 23]

And when he said live by the sword, die by the sword, does this mean that those who claim to follow him--Christians, should never defend themselves?

My brother in law writes. He has a couple of books published, and is writing another, I think. His words often send me into an internal frenzy, as although I'm naturally passive, in most situations, and try to make peace around me, I do feel that there is a line, where I will defend others, and myself, and I have, so far without drawing blood or attacking in anger--usually just headlocking or something an aggressor until they submit... But I will not rule out the use of more drastic measures...

But his recent writing is basically in admiration of all of those Christian men who sacrificed themselves--who got their heads chopped off/throats slit/gun shots to their heads. He is advocating total pacifism for the Christian, as if this is what Jesus means, even in these extremes. I question if my brother in law is himself a kind of extremist. And it bothers me to think that he wouldnt defend my sister and nieces and nephew if someone went on a killing spree around him. Because my instinct is to protect.

I'll post his post in the next post.

But is this what Jesus intended? To just go completely soft? Is this what loving your neighbor and doing good for those who hate you means? I hope I've been clear enough. I don't mean to disrespect in my over a explanation.

 

[What 23]

Actually, I'm trying to think of a way to share his writing without him being able to trace it to here. I'll work on this later. But this is the general idea in the title post.

 

[PotatoMan]

I believe this was a form of humility Jesus was representing. Total humility. The humbleness to take a hit that will jerk your anger and just not retaliate and love the person.

Which in this world is almost impossible. I don't believe in jesus but that's what I think it could have meant

 

[What 23]

Thanks for your response. I appreciate it. One musn't believe for sake of the argument, I don't think.

I've read that the "turn the other cheek" is in reference to an open-handed slap, which is more of an assault on ones honor. In this case, I completely agree. Avoid escalation. I do this.

But there are verses where Jesus clearly did use violent resistance to things he didn't agree with, such as the men using a temple to God to trade, him running around cracking a whip, overturning tables. (And he says, do not resist evil, too, but here he clearly resisted)

And also there is a verse where he tells those with money belts to follow him, going around to spread his message. And here he tells them to buy swords. And if they don't have the money, to sell their coats so that they can buy them. They find two swords, and he says "that will do".

But again, Jesus does say "do not resist evil".

Thanks for your response, PotatoMan.

 

[swilow]

I feel like the "turn the other cheek" thing was more symbolism regarding Jesus' desire to reverse the old order of things. Instead of a 'natural', 'expected' response in line with the status quo, he suggests you do the opposite. Rebel against your nature perhaps. I don't think he meant it in practise.

I like how he says "...and also your bag..." Do not forget the bag. Do not. He doesn't seem to mention why they need this bag. Perhaps for the two swords. Hmm.

 

[Ninae]

To give someone another chance. Instead of cutting them off or seeking retaliation. Think of all the times your family has given you another chance.

In real life we mostly do this for people we love, or it's something that's based in love. He was trying to introduce a new culture of love to this world. But it's a good guideline to start anew everyday, and forget about what's happened before, or don't bear grudges.

 

[swilow]

To give someone another chance. Instead of cutting them off or seeking retaliation. Think of all the times your family has given you another chance.

Well said Nin That is actually not an interpretation I had thought of myself. Christians have used those sort of passages to talk about how the world will hate them and spurn them, that god approves of their suffering as a means of attaining purity. Your interpretation is more useable; its not referring to mighty oppressors or antichristian purges or mad flagellation, but to everyday life and how we should treat each other.... Its not about the absence of revenge, its about the existence of forgiveness. Am I close to correct do you think?

 

[Ninae]

Well said Nin That is actually not an interpretation I had thought of myself. Christians have used those sort of passages to talk about how the world will hate them and spurn them, that god approves of their suffering as a means of attaining purity. Your interpretation is more useable; its not referring to mighty oppressors or antichristian purges or mad flagellation, but to everyday life and how we should treat each other.... Its not about the absence of revenge, its about the existence of forgiveness. Am I close to correct do you think?

It just occurred to me that's what it really means in practice. People who love each other have to forgive each other and give each other new chances all the time and kids have to start anew every day and put what has gone on in the past behind them.

I think it's just the only way to have a loving culture. Everyone makes mistakes. We don't make the same mistakes at the same time, but everyone makes mistakes, and it's the tendency to focus on what someone has done at a time and not seeing it in the bigger picture that creates problems. Not that some aren't worse than others, but we can make it a lot worse than it needs to be.

We tend to think of it being more about the big things we need to forgive, but most of it is just day-to-day stuff, and it can be a problem when we hold onto things so it builds up resentment, etc. Brothers and sisters have a good way of going about this as you grow up having to learn to start anew and put things behind you.

 

[hookerinamorgue]

But is this what Jesus intended? To just go completely soft? Is this what loving your neighbor and doing good for those who hate you means? I hope I've been clear enough. I don't mean to disrespect in my over a explanation.

I didn't write this, just passing it along as I think it's very interesting to the context of the OP.

---

"If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also", if placed in it’s proper historical context actually tells a much different story than pacifism.

You see in the time of Jesus, striking someone of a lower class (such as a servant) with the back of the hand was used to assert authority/dominance. If the person “turned the other cheek,” the discipliner was faced with a dilemma because the left hand was used for unclean purposes, so a back hand strike on the opposite cheek wouldn't be delivered.

Another alternative would be a slap with the open hand or to punch the person, but this was seen as a statement of equality. So, by turning the other cheek the persecuted was in effect putting an end to the behavior or if the abuse continued the person would lawfully be deemed an equal and have to be released as a servant and or slave.

Many of Jesus’ instructions and stories were performative protests designed to shed light on and ridicule the oppressions of that time period as a way to emphasize the absurdity of the social hierarchy and give people the will and motivation to make changes for a more free and equal society.

Sure, Jesus was a pacifist, but his teachings weren't always necessarily passive.

---

 

[Shrooms00087]

Ideally you'd live in a world were pacifism was as common as violence.

 

[cengsuz]

I agree with what Ninae said: to give someone another chance.

I think it's about forgiving others when they do us wrong and not do what they are doing (adopting their behavior).

Intention is important (at least for me). Putting yourself in another person's shoes enables us to understand why they did what they did and helps us determine how to react. The main objective is to propagate kindness.

Of course, if someone were out to kill you, you shouldn't let yourself be killed. You will defend yourself, disarm them, hide, call the police and kill them only if there is no choice.

I think what the saying means is to show others what it means to be a Christian, following what Jesus taught us about loving others.

The things Jesus taught us is about how to live life to do good to others but at the same time, it's for our own good as well. For example, letting it go and not holding grudges lets us look forward: no negative thoughts to carry while we work, better concentration, avoidance of a heart attack. Things like that.

 

[Jabberwocky]

forgiveness of your brother is one of Jesus' main teachings. I don't think the metaphor should be applied too literally because mechanically extending the other cheek isn't forgiveness, it is sadism. Others have already said this in their own way, but here it is in my words. Why did your brother raise his hands to slap you? What made him do that? So Jesus looks inside his own soul and his own experience and finds forgiveness. Then he looks out with this new perspective that only true forgiveness can bestow. Well, he turns the other cheek with no fear. But does the guy then proceed to strike the other cheek?! They never tell us the outcome of this experiment but if he does, then perhaps Jesus hasn't truly forgiven his brother. In other words, our inner experience is our outer experience and so we forgive the illusion to see the world with real eyes.

 

[Shrooms00087]

forgiveness of your brother is one of Jesus' main teachings. I don't think the metaphor should be applied too literally because mechanically extending the other cheek isn't forgiveness, it is sadism. Others have already said this in their own way, but here it is in my words. Why did your brother raise his hands to slap you? What made him do that? So Jesus looks inside his own soul and his own experience and finds forgiveness. Then he looks out with this new perspective that only true forgiveness can bestow. Well, he turns the other cheek with no fear. But does the guy then proceed to strike the other cheek?! They never tell us the outcome of this experiment but if he does, then perhaps Jesus hasn't truly forgiven his brother. In other words, our inner experience is our outer experience and so we forgive the illusion to see the world with real eyes.

Sounds like the brother isn't a follower of the Word. He was a teacher only to the extent it could be practiced. One could say being hit multiple times just proves the need for such a teacher to arrive. That in all its horrors the outcome of violence is to spur new thoughts as to why something has occurred needing forgiveness. You can forgive and not like the action which the brother has produced, which in turn, would beg the teacher to give His lesson. Christ was aware He was going to die but we don't consider this Pleasure through pain or sadism. We call it purpose. How long until the brothers arm wears? The nature of the good paving the road to bad is to accept that the bad is a function of good.

 

[Noodle]

I feel like the "turn the other cheek" thing was more symbolism regarding Jesus' desire to reverse the old order of things. Instead of a 'natural', 'expected' response in line with the status quo, he suggests you do the opposite. Rebel against your nature perhaps. I don't think he meant it in practise.

I like how he says "...and also your bag..." Do not forget the bag. Do not. He doesn't seem to mention why they need this bag. Perhaps for the two swords. Hmm.

 

[ForEverAfter]

Absolutism shouldn't be applied to anything (including this statement).

Fundamentalists might misinterpret "turn the other cheek" and become unconditionally pacifistic, but - obviously - there are exceptions to every rule. The entire Bible can be (and has been) interpreted fundamentally. "Thou Shalt not Kill", should have had about a thousand clauses after it. We have to kill, sometimes. We have to steal sometimes... As a general rule, we should "turn the other cheek". But there are exceptions to every rule.

I don't know why people are so prone to fundamental interpretations of the Bible, even when they're not Christian.
It is written by men, thousands of years ago. It is imperfect. You need to read between the lines.
The Bible only contradicts itself when you interpret it literally and/or fundamentally.
It is meant to be a collection of guidelines. It is not the law.

Sometimes you have to fight.
By default, though, you should be passive.
(It's not too difficult to understand.)

If somebody slaps you, tell them to slap you again.
But if they beat you to a bloody pulp, fight back.

If somebody attempts to insult you, make it clear that you're not insulted.
If they continue to insult you, relentlessly, slap them.
If they turn the other cheek, slap that too.
Then sodomize them four times.
And, that should do the trick.

It has to be four acts of sodomy, though.
Not three. Not five. And, NEVER seventeen.

Cows have four stomachs, after all... and, stomachs contain acid.
LSD (an acid) tastes bitter. Bitter rhymes with baby sitter.
If you sit on a baby you will kill it.
Thou shall not kill is a commandment.
The 4th commandment is honor they father.
So, you can't honor your father, without 4 acts of sodomy.
(Incidentally, sodomy rhymes with lobotomy.
And, there are four lobes in the brain.
Coincidence? I think not!)

 

[-=SS=-]

Pretty sure it's not meant to be taken literally. I don't know what the original translation is for that phrase.. but the way it reads in English is like a metaphorical saying, rather than literally about those who fight with weapons.


"Yea, look upon me and know me. My children, you should know something. I'm packing!"

 

[Ninae]

I think it's just a metaphor for giving people another chance and not a way of telling you to be a voluntary victim. If someone insults you, let it slide and give them a new chance, instead of getting angry and seeking revenge. Sometimes that's all it takes, everyone has offdays, while some just needs to be avoided.

So I don't think it's a way of telling you to be idiotically trusting and pacifist, like it tends to be read. This is also part of what makes Christianity off-putting for most (although I think it's deliberately presented that way).

 

[ForEverAfter]

Well said, Nina.

 

[Ninae]

When you think about it, it makes sense, it's just a way of telling you not to be stupidly vindictive or agressive and create unnecessary unrest. It may or may not have been put in so many words, most likely not, as all kinds of rhetorical devices have been used on the bible to make it sound more immpressive.

It's just that it tends to be taken literally as we first hear it at such a young age when we can't really think metaphorically. But most of the bible is quite high-level intellectual writings and probably meant in a metaphoric sense. For instance "You first you need to put your own house in order" refers to all that's within you and your life, not just keeping your home tidy.

 

[ForEverAfter]

Indeed. To understand the Bible requires effort on the reader's part and at least some understanding of how to interpret ancient religions writings. People who pick it up and say, "Look, this doesn't make any sense!" are missing the point. It doesn't make sense literally. Yet, while turn the other cheek is not meant to be interpreted literally, it's figurative meaning can be applied to any number of situations including contexts that resemble literal interpretations. This is confusing, for many people. In this case, it can be interpreted literally (but not absolutely). Though if you interpret it literally, you are limiting it to that context. Christians have done this for centuries. The message - as it is understood by the church - is distorted almost beyond recognition. But, it still does retain a hint of (what I think) the original intention (was). This is typical of fundamentalism. The message, because it is embraced so much that it suffocates. In the case of turn the other cheek, some people become so passive they would rather sacrifice their lives for fear of retaliating in any way. The story of Jesus is so extreme and horrifying, it lends itself to fundamental interpretations. The teachings of Buddha are much simpler, yet people still find a way to fundamentally interpret them.

Religion is so present in the world, I think there should be a mandatory theology subject in school that teaches people how to interpret and understanding potentially upsetting and life-changing gospels (such as the Torah and the New Testament). We could prevent children from being brainwashed by misinterpretations of divine translations. But, unfortunately, that's not going to happen. Because the ignorant church leaders are too powerful and they insist that the global educational syllabus conform to their demands.

Most people have absolutely no idea how to read the Bible, theists and atheists alike.
The church doesn't teach you how to read it. School doesn't teach you how to read it.
It's unlikely that your parents will, either, unless they're religious and parroting the church.

I think people who understand theology, are those who approach religion - as individuals - with open hearts and souls.
Most who don't understand, have a predisposition. They either hate Christianity or love it, before they read.
Hating it leads to negative interpretations and mockery. Loving it leads to fundamentalism.
If you go in, neutral - and you really want to understand - then you will.
(As long as you're willing to devote enough time and effort.)